Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[lyrecono]

i'm deeply sorry for beating this dead horse but.....

@Devs? when are you coming back to this and finish the job? barbarians are still to far behind on monchkers, paladins and bards
Since the sole purpose of a barb is to do melee damage they fail at their only job.
They fall far behind due to their lack of attack speed and worthless enhancements filling up the tree's
Would you be so kind as to come of your collective b-hinds and start fixing this?

I don't know if anyone else tried the change about the medium armors.
It is still pointless.
After the test I did with my character the Xtra damage you take is not worth the trade for 10% more melee power. You need more to make the medium armor appealing.
anyone else has an opinion about this?

But most important:




What the man said.....

ty

he dev's are you aware, the job's still considered incomplete?

[lyrecono]

Sigh.....

so the barb stuff has passed and non of it's major issues have been taken care of;

frenzy&death frenzy are still 1 min clickies that are annoying to keep track of.
pathetic fluff and filler in the FB tree
Heal amp issues, running around with 1500 hp unraged a sf pot hits me for 750 ish, no problem there you say? no, i have to spend so much points in fb and ravager in order to get enough Heal Amp and a smidgen of dps that i barely have points left for racial tree's but when i look at what i got out of it is 80% filler in order to gain the decent ones.
Compaired to the far superior Bard Swashbuckler enh i seem to gain far more useful combat related enhancements in order to get the strong enhancements.

Swashbuckling on it's own is already so much more powerfull then frenzy and unlike frenzy, it stays on all the time!!!


So please dev's, take a look at this before you move on

i'm deeply sorry for beating this dead horse but.....

@Devs? when are you coming back to this and finish the job? barbarians are still to far behind on monchkers, paladins and bards
Since the sole purpose of a barb is to do melee damage they fail at their only job.
They fall far behind due to their lack of attack speed and worthless enhancements filling up the tree's
Would you be so kind as to come of your collective b-hinds and start fixing this?

@devs

Can we at least get a response on whether you're actually finishing the job?
Unlike half finished rushed content that require a bunch of hot fixes and patches or half finished item revamps.....oh wait
At least tell us you're working on it (with a deadline) or tell us you don't understand how enhancements and dps works and consequently abandoned the barbarians.
If so, would you be so kind as to provide +20 hearts of wood to your victims to improve customer service?
We don't like paying for other people's mistakes.

[Severlin]

~ With the last set of changes we are probably fairly close for overall class balance. We've been seeing some impressive barbarian performance from well built barbarians. We'll probably have a thread on overall class balance for the new player's council so they can give input on it.

~ With the change to allow more attribute damage through on Epic Elite the attribute damage abilities are more useful. We are watching to see where that lands.

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

~ With the last set of changes we are probably fairly close for overall class balance. We've been seeing some impressive barbarian performance from well built barbarians. We'll probably have a thread on overall class balance for the new player's council so they can give input on it.

~ With the change to allow more attribute damage through on Epic Elite the attribute damage abilities are more useful. We are watching to see where that lands.

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.

Sev~

heh, that wont satisfy him.

[Systern]

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.

Sev~

Can you clarify that, please? I'm not sure what you're talking about...

Mods? The ability modifiers? Like warchanter's using charisma for the DC of abilities, although no warchanter build favors Charisma, and have no way other than PDK to get Charisma to hit and damage?
Swashie's enhancements continuing the precedent of Fascinate, and adding Perform + d20 to thier DCs? While I in no way want this nerfed, it seems a little skewed that my Low Blow DC is 40 points higher than my Trip DC.
Spellsingers would need to favor Charisma heavily for their spells, but doing so gives no real synergy with the other trees. The DPS will be deplorable without Cha-to-hit/dmg. The Warchanter Freeze Cleave is a tier 5, either locking you out of the best of spell singer, or paying WAY too much AP in the pre-reqs to have another CC ability. There's nothing in Swashbuckler that will aid your to-hit.

Bards rely heavily on Displacement for their defenses, and the upcoming Shavarath Devil's are likely candidates to have True Seeing on everything. (pre-emptive *****ing: Great, you'll take away 1/2 my defenses and still gave bucklers no PRR/MRR, nor any enhancements to add MRR)


I don't understand what "I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are." means...

[XxJFGxX]

~ With the last set of changes we are probably fairly close for overall class balance. We've been seeing some impressive barbarian performance from well built barbarians. We'll probably have a thread on overall class balance for the new player's council so they can give input on it.

~ With the change to allow more attribute damage through on Epic Elite the attribute damage abilities are more useful. We are watching to see where that lands.

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.

Sev~

You devs do realize that the stat damage that mobs suffer on EE difficulty are recovered very quickly right? Even with the change to "Epic Ward" that lowers the percentage chance for mobs to resist stat damage on higher epic difficulty doesn't make the Ravager tree any less sucky. I personally believe you made this change out of a lazy attempt to make Ravager not suck as much but they still do. I've already posted my proposed changes about the Ravager tree as well as a change to make medium armor more relevant to barbs because an extra 10 PRR on MEDIUM armor is also another lazy attempt to solve a problem but yet it falls on the devs deaf ears.

~ With the last set of changes we are probably fairly close for overall class balance. We've been seeing some impressive barbarian performance from well built barbarians. We'll probably have a thread on overall class balance for the new player's council so they can give input on it.

I hate to break this to you Sev, but I got some bad news. Barbarians are not close enough to what they need to be damage wise which is what they are suppose to do, damage. Even with the extremely minor nerf to Paladin's "Holy Sword" and Bard's Swashbuckler, etc, Barbarians are still being outshine on the damage output spectrum. And after all the feedback in this thread about the ideas to improve Barbarians after the initial "re-vamp" of Barbarians, U24 p.1, and U24 p.2 out voice still goes unheard. I have seen little input by you devs to us after all of our input in this thread to come to some sort of compromise that would make everyone happy.

[davmuzl]

~ With the last set of changes we are probably fairly close for overall class balance. We've been seeing some impressive barbarian performance from well built barbarians. We'll probably have a thread on overall class balance for the new player's council so they can give input on it.

~ With the change to allow more attribute damage through on Epic Elite the attribute damage abilities are more useful. We are watching to see where that lands.

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.

Sev~

I wouldn't call the overall class balance good, but I can say that my own barbarian does really well and there is really no need to buff barbarians further.

[lyrecono]

~ With the last set of changes we are probably fairly close for overall class balance. We've been seeing some impressive barbarian performance from well built barbarians. We'll probably have a thread on overall class balance for the new player's council so they can give input on it.

~ With the change to allow more attribute damage through on Epic Elite the attribute damage abilities are more useful. We are watching to see where that lands.

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.

Sev~

fairly close....
sigh....
A well build, equiped and played barbarian is still out dps-ed by equally well geared, build and played paladins, swasbuckling bards and wolf druids and thats just the melee side of things.
Since the only thing barbarians could ever do is grow hp and put out melee dps everyboddy was happy to see the announcement that you would fix this class, noboddy expected you to go the veterinarian route.
You have created a lot of false expectations and i rather see them met or compensated for the support that was ignored.

The overall class ballance between the melee's is thrown overboard
Paladin: high def (ac/mrr/prr/saves), high dps (zeal, sfw with orb, holly sword, divine might, etc), superiour selfhealing, good/fun enhancements leading up to the good tier 5 and capstones
Bard: CC (based on perform skill), high def (high dodge, high ref save&evasion, high mrr/ppr potential when multiclassed with fighter), high amount of skills, superior selfhealing, good/fun enhancements leading up to the good tier 5 and capstones, spellcasting&self buffs.
Wolf: CC (earhtquake), def (mrr/prr dragonscale plate), dps(might not be wai but it still works), selfhealing, decent/fun enhancements leading up to the good tier 5 and capstones, selfbuffs&spelcasting
Barbarian: no CC (cooldown of stunning blow is too long and combat feats are now "fixed"), good def (by wearing a heavier armor then the class is supposed to wear), medium skills with a bad skill selection, some terrible fluff (enhancements) etc

in other words, barbd are still not ballanced.
I have no idea what kind if build you seem to use for testing but it makes me wonder how you come to think the dps is compaireble to the pali/bard/wolf builds
Worst of all, a barbarian should have way more dps then the paladins and druids (in wolf form!) and way way way more then bards!!!

You forgat all about (melee) class ballance!!!! so sad because you ignored all the imput we gave you on this



~ With the last set of changes we are probably fairly close for overall class balance. We've been seeing some impressive barbarian performance from well built barbarians. We'll probably have a thread on overall class balance for the new player's council so they can give input on it.
Stange, since all the evidence points to the contrary, as pointed out above, if this is an example of a good class ballance i'm seriously doubting who ever came up with it knows the game in depth like some of us do.
If the previous council has anything to do with this poor ballance and the current sorry state of barbarians then i realy hope the future one has better insights in barbs and class balance.

~ With the change to allow more attribute damage through on Epic Elite the attribute damage abilities are more useful. We are watching to see where that lands.
atribute damage damage??? really, thats what you think were waiting for when we say we want more dps?

~ Swashbuckling is actually boosted a lot because the bard class mods really handicap the content that bards are running. I wouldn't expect the Bard balance mods to stay as low as they are.
bards did low damage because their role is not melee dps, let allone top melee dps, you turned them into kings of everything.

[Xaxx]

fairly close....
sigh....
A well build, equiped and played barbarian is still out dps-ed by equally well geared, build and played paladins, swasbuckling bards and wolf druids and thats just the melee side of things.

BLAH BLAHBLAH

You forgat all about (melee) class ballance!!!! so sad because you ignored all the imput we gave you on this

SOME MORE BLAH
.

Ok so.... yeah speaking as someone who has been around and played this game way to much... I will ONCE AGAIN REMIND PEOPLE that balance in this game has always swung back and forth from casters being gods to mele being gods to mele being door openers to casters being haste bots and people joking about not taking acaster for anything but their mana pool being used for haste.... THIS IS THE HISTORY OF THIS GAME.... live with it. Sorry guys but the people who run ddo have never ever learned to balance with a feather, its always a sledgehammer... it is what it is.

Now down to brass tax about you guys and barbs....

So i've spent the last few weeks running epls on my vangaurd pally... and you know whats funny i did a few different versions of the vangaurd.. and then i did a full tr and i did a pure 20 human barb and did a couple lives on my character as a barbarian. As a side note one of my characters is also a 12/6/2 bard/fighter/rogue dwarf (sorry i posted the gerneral idea on my own guild forums a long while before the post in the bard forums so i will not refer to my build as the parody)...

With that said i now have experience with each of the current things that people are referencing (i will not reference druid since we all know that it is NOT wai and requires direct things to circumvent the block around fighting styles being able to be taken ...)

My time as a barb has me wondering what you guys are seeing that I'm not... I saw nothing that told me my time as a barb was any way less powerful than my time as a paladin... sorry guys your out of your minds when you simply consider the barb capstone available... its worth as much dps per swing on the average weapon as holy sword... outside of that barb is stronger than pally when it comes down to pure mele ability. Sorry to burst your bubble guys.

As for the YOU DIDNT LISTEN TO US... actually the biggest complaint about barbs was their lack of self healing... and well... that was adressed... maybe it wasnt YOUR complaint.. but the BIGGEST barb complaints centered around the lack of self healing which is where the game currently resides... if you dont like that about the current game dynamics... you know what... thats kinda ot bad but thats the way things are, and they worked around that side of things.... once again sorry to burst your bubble.

My complaint about my barb lives was clickies... group of mob hit 6 butttons... and everything dead.... run strait to the next group of mobs and do things to them that will make their grandchildren's grandchildren lay awake at night wondering when the boggybarian will kick in their doors and do it to them like some roided out blender on a bender....

Look i'm at the forefront to throw turbines people under the bus when its called for, but the barbarian changes have made the class viable, inline powerwise with the other revamps. Maybe this isnt what YOU wanted, but this is what the gerneral complaints were about no self healing and trees need work. Could the trees have been cleaned out a bit futher... yeah. Could they have backloaded more of the damage that barbs can do away from a couple of abilities... yeah. Yet simply saying barbs arent as powerful as they need to be simply tells me you either didnt play the class much since the change, or your thinking about where barbs need to be is well and truly gone. In the old game days yes barbs were the damage king, but they had a cleric attached to their rear end. Today that wouldnt work not for what the game is and what people complained about. So barbs were brought more in line with the other classes being worked on. Is it the same as it was, no, but sometimes changes are made for the better, even if some dont like them.

At the same time to me... I wont be continuing on with a barb... as i said to many clickies... not my favorite thing to be constantly hammering on button buffs... should those be cut down on the barb... yeah...I wouldnt disagree with anything of that nature, but that barbs NEED MORE DEEPS OR ELZORZ RAAARWWRRR... go play the class guys....

[XxJFGxX]

Ok so.... yeah speaking as someone who has been around and played this game way to much... I will ONCE AGAIN REMIND PEOPLE that balance in this game has always swung back and forth from casters being gods to mele being gods to mele being door openers to casters being haste bots and people joking about not taking acaster for anything but their mana pool being used for haste.... THIS IS THE HISTORY OF THIS GAME.... live with it. Sorry guys but the people who run ddo have never ever learned to balance with a feather, its always a sledgehammer... it is what it is.

For the longest time casters has been superior to melee in terms of DPS, insta killing power, CC, self healing etc. But we are not talking about comparing casters and melees here. So part of your above quote has no relevance.

Now down to brass tax about you guys and barbs....

So i've spent the last few weeks running epls on my vangaurd pally... and you know whats funny i did a few different versions of the vangaurd.. and then i did a full tr and i did a pure 20 human barb and did a couple lives on my character as a barbarian. As a side note one of my characters is also a 12/6/2 bard/fighter/rogue dwarf (sorry i posted the gerneral idea on my own guild forums a long while before the post in the bard forums so i will not refer to my build as the parody)...

With that said i now have experience with each of the current things that people are referencing (i will not reference druid since we all know that it is NOT wai and requires direct things to circumvent the block around fighting styles being able to be taken ...)

My time as a barb has me wondering what you guys are seeing that I'm not... I saw nothing that told me my time as a barb was any way less powerful than my time as a paladin... sorry guys your out of your minds when you simply consider the barb capstone available... its worth as much dps per swing on the average weapon as holy sword... outside of that barb is stronger than pally when it comes down to pure mele ability. Sorry to burst your bubble guys.

Ok so you played a barbarian, a vanguard paladin, and a bard splash build a couple of times and yet to see the difference of overall effectiveness between these classes. I assume the capstone you are referencing would be the "Storm's Eye" capstone from Frenzied Berserker and how you say on the average weapon is on par with paladin's "Holy Sword" weapon buff. I believe you are the one whos mind is lost.

Storm's Eye: You gain 25 stacks of Storm's Eye. Storm's Eye gives you +1 melee damage per stack and loses one stack every 2-3 seconds.

Holy Sword (Level 4 Paladin Spell): Any weapon you are wielding gains an additional +1 holy bonus to its enhancement value. The spell also gives a +1 Competence bonus to the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon. The spell lasts one minute per level of Paladin. (Can be extended and quickened.)

How is an extra 25 melee damage that ticks down like a mini Zeal of the Righteous better than a weapon buff that increases your critical threat range AND critical multiplier by an extra 1? Storm's Eye doesn't hold a candle to Holy Sword, not in the slightest.

And barbarians being stronger than a paladin when it comes to pure melee ability? Again wrong. Paladin's Holy Sword buff, Zeal, Divine Might, better reliable enhancements, etc puts Paladins far ahead of the Barbarians in terms of DPS. Yes the Barbarian Frenzied Berserker has more critical damage multiplier than a Paladin but ONLY on a 19 - 20, whereas a pally can simply use holy sword and increase ANY weapons critical threat range and critical multiplier that they are currently wielding and will crit alot more often for more damage.

Bards, like paladins can self buff, self heal but Bards can also CC. As me playing multiple Barbarians in this game for many years, Barbarians do AoE damage with cleaves but very little actual CC. Yes they have the ear smash - knock out ability and maybe stunning blow if they have the open feat for it but that's about it. The only "AoE CC" is the tier 5 Frenzied Berserker ability "Tantrum". I have already touch upon this ability before.

Tantrum: Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 25 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. (10 + Strength modifier + Barbarian Level). (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)

A tactical cleave that has a 50% chance to knockdown each damage enemy for 1 second on a fail fort save.

Let's use a 18 barbarian/ 1 FvS/ 1 Fighter and use 100 str for this example. 100 is a 45 mod. So (10 + 45 + 18) = 73 Fort DC.
I have seen mobs on EE difficulty save constantly on from this and with a higher DC to where it's not worth the AP to pick up. If Tantrum DC was able to be affected by vertigo items, combat mastery items etc and increase the percentage chance to 75% then it would be worth the AP spent. But it's not.

As for the YOU DIDNT LISTEN TO US... actually the biggest complaint about barbs was their lack of self healing... and well... that was adressed... maybe it wasnt YOUR complaint.. but the BIGGEST barb complaints centered around the lack of self healing which is where the game currently resides... if you dont like that about the current game dynamics... you know what... thats kinda ot bad but thats the way things are, and they worked around that side of things.... once again sorry to burst your bubble.

I will say that the biggest complaint for barbarians was self healing BUT it wasn't the only big issue. The other big issues about the barbarians was the enhancement trees not being reliable enough in higher epic content, way too many clickies to manage, having to be in a "go heavy or go home" mentality in terms of defense, etc. We have voiced our concerns and alternatives to these changes to make barbarians more than just a larger HP sack with more heal amp than a pally and the devs have either made insignificant changes or no changes at all. Am I saying give every little change that we want? No. But to come to some sort of compromise that will make both sides happy and content with the changes.

[IronClan]

Unlike many here I can tell you first hand that Frenzied Barb is indeed top DPS in the game (how couldn't it be, at up to X10 multiplier and 25 base damage from storms eye alone!*)... superior non crit base damage, 5000-6000 point crits WITHOUT BLITZ**. In fact I was critting for 2500-3000 in Kings forest on a level 20 1st life Barb without ANY ED's, and this reached 3000-4000 when I took overwhelming crit but before I was even able to navigate over to LD (for Devastating Crit and Headmans chop). HOWEVER the problem isn't FB DPS, the problem is Rav and OS still really suck.

* Storms eye 25 base damage... lets put it this way if the enhancement read this way: When you are above 50% health you do +5[W] damage on all attacks would you get it then? It's serious DPS
** note admittedly this was using SWF before you guys fixed it to work as described, so my numbers will be lower now

MOST of the problem (in my opinion of course) is still that Rage costs more in penalties than it's worth EXCEPT for a pure 20 Barb in FB capstone. Sure you guys have tweaked it, and it is more worth the penalties... but it is still very punitive. Now you could make a better OS T5 and make it work without rage, and you could remove the Rage prerequisite from Ravager T5 and quickly solve that problem...

Since Rage looks like it's as good as Turbine is willing to make it, I'll move on to the next biggest issue (as I see it anyway) that maybe is still on the table:

Rav and OS simply DO NOT HAVE FUN THINGS in their trees, that make up for the loss of DPS of not taking FB and it's T5 and Core 18 and Capstone. The main difference in DPS between a 14 level Paladin, and a pure Barb is Death Frenzy, The Capstone (Storms Eye), the T5 +1W (that costs self healing). Without those a Barbarian is CLEARLY INFERIOR choice to a Paladin, because a Paladin does not get crippled when he casts Holy Sword, and a Paladin comes with self heals and defense that are FAR superior to a Barb's. This means that Rav and OS are clearly inferior to Paladin's and it's why you're getting so much flack. Not everyone wants their Barb to be a full ****** FB capstone.

The problem with Rav and OS is very similar to Warchanter IMO In fact we had this same "standoff" with Warchanter if you guys recall... There's no MEAT in the OS and Rav trees.. Especially OS both trees should have some ability that allows or improves CC (tacticals) like Warchanter, and one or both should have some sort of movement perk that adds offense or CC or Defence...

I know I'm a broken record but being a Broken record helped Spellsinger and Warchanter (I didn't need to be a broken record with Paladin, Sev's initial Paladin trees were home runs right off the bat) so here we go again:

Shoulder Bash (like Staff lunge or Shield Charge, a half distance abundant step that's targeted and does CC at the point of contact) this ability takes skill to use properly so should be "low hanging fruit"

Charge (a full abudant step with K.O at the end) this ability is mostly for fun factor and because it's so generically Barbarian should be added as a Class perk instead of being locked into one trees T5 ability... As a compromise it could be a T4... Yes I want my FB to be able to charge... ****** this stuff is FUN you guys too often want to dole out FUN like it's something that should be given out cautiously, and with concern. Stop doing that

Pommel Smash stun added to Rav. this could share a cooldown with Stunning blow if that is deemed necessary, but I would like to see both abilities useable cycling between them, if it's deemed necessary then I would like to see TWO CC's in Rav, perhaps an Improved Stunning blow that does share a cooldown with the feat, or a Leg sweep (multi target trip) that shares a cooldown with trip (yes this would also be a way to alleviate some of the feat starvation a barb suffers from, just like the cleaves in KotC).

Add fun to Rav and OS and IMO a lot of this criticism goes away.

Oh and BTW I know no ones said it before *cough* but please make Frenzy and Death fenzy longer or tack them onto rage.

[IronClan]

Ok so you played a barbarian, a vanguard paladin, and a bard splash build a couple of times and yet to see the difference of overall effectiveness between these classes. I assume the capstone you are referencing would be the "Storm's Eye" capstone from Frenzied Berserker and how you say on the average weapon is on par with paladin's "Holy Sword" weapon buff. I believe you are the one whos mind is lost.

Storm's Eye: You gain 25 stacks of Storm's Eye. Storm's Eye gives you +1 melee damage per stack and loses one stack every 2-3 seconds.

No offense, and we're on the same side of this issue for the most part; but this is where actual experience playing a 20 barb comes into play. Storms eye does not lose stacks until you're below 50% health they don't decay, and 25 damage is basically the equivelent of getting a bonus of +5[W] on most one handed weapons, Base damage or +[W] is in many ways superior to increased Multiplier or Range because it is applied to every hit, not just crits, and it is also multiplied. A full ****** FB with everything going using Adaxus can hit 400-500 non crit base damage and I don't have to do the math on 19-20X10 Taken as a whole (and ignoring the cost of rage penalties): Rage + Frenzy + Death frenzy + Storms eye and T5 +1[W] are definitely superior melee DPS. Sure I take issue with the notion that Storms Eye by itself outweighs Holy Sword, situationally it can, in EH where you're less likely to take 50% of your health bar before you can heal, for example...

But all that said, and this is where I agree with you: a Bard and Paladin pays no rage penalty, have better defense and superior self healing. So those Barb abilities SHOULD net superior DPS (and they certainly do, and by a lot)... Again the problem is this only applies to a 20 barbarian spending 41 AP's in FB... any other combination especially Rav or OS is clearly inferior to a Paladin or a Bard Swashbuckler in every way. Drop below 18 Barb levels and even FB becomes inferior as the penalties for using Barb rage quickly tip the scales into the Bard and Paladins favor.

The solution is better OS and Rav trees, and frankly less Rage penalties but again I can tell they're not likely to budge any more on Rage.

[Xaxx]

For the longest time casters has been superior to melee in terms of DPS, insta killing power, CC, self healing etc. But we are not talking about comparing casters and melees here. So part of your above quote has no relevance.




Ok so you played a barbarian, a vanguard paladin, and a bard splash build a couple of times and yet to see the difference of overall effectiveness between these classes. I assume the capstone you are referencing would be the "Storm's Eye" capstone from Frenzied Berserker and how you say on the average weapon is on par with paladin's "Holy Sword" weapon buff. I believe you are the one whos mind is lost.

Storm's Eye: You gain 25 stacks of Storm's Eye. Storm's Eye gives you +1 melee damage per stack and loses one stack every 2-3 seconds.

Holy Sword (Level 4 Paladin Spell): Any weapon you are wielding gains an additional +1 holy bonus to its enhancement value. The spell also gives a +1 Competence bonus to the threat range and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon. The spell lasts one minute per level of Paladin. (Can be extended and quickened.)

How is an extra 25 melee damage that ticks down like a mini Zeal of the Righteous better than a weapon buff that increases your critical threat range AND critical multiplier by an extra 1? Storm's Eye doesn't hold a candle to Holy Sword, not in the slightest.

And barbarians being stronger than a paladin when it comes to pure melee ability? Again wrong. Paladin's Holy Sword buff, Zeal, Divine Might... MORE BLAHBLAH

hmmm im really really thinking you forgot...

+10 Melee Power
When raging your melee attacks have a 5% chance to deal 400 bludgeoning damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

lets see 400/20=20 damage average a swing just for this part of it not counting the clicky... and thats before mele power is applied.. if procced on an adrenalin, or procs in blitz, or any of the other big boosting abilities along with mele power gianed through barb and epic levels.... we get much closer to 30-45 damage average per swing.... on top of the clicky.... im sorry if you do not realize that this ability basically out matches holysword.

As for you saying i'm again wrong when it comes to holy sword zeal dm.... well i just allayed the strongest barb point versus the strongest pal point and the barb is stronger.... and if you lay out the REST of the damage mods for pally outside of holy sword, then lay good build barbs abilities outside of storms eye.... when you get into rage and vicous damage cleaves and you know what sorry but you wanted to go dm for pally.... well guess what then a barb can build for some harper loving... if measured head to head barb is stronger than paladin... sorry it is.

Now there is a caveat here.... paladin requires 14 pally for its true strength 18/20 if you wanna be strongest vangaurd.... barb is strongest as pure 20 bare none because of storms eye. Paladin builds are also a bit more versatile and the trees themselves are in general better then the barb trees when split apart.... but the argument was here and what you guys keep harping on BAARBS NEEEEEEED MOOOOOOOOOORRRE DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPSSSSSSSS BAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH.....

Sorry dude but a well built barb already OUT DPS A WELL BUILD PALADIN...if you dont know this.... sorry then build better. Will a less optomized paladin still outdo a less optimized barb.... you know with holy sword involved and no storms eye for the barb... then yeah paladin is ahead.... so barb is pigeonholed a bit.... but that pigeonhole is really deep and has much bar in it.....

As for self healing of pallys and bards and the crowd control of bards.... you know in most... not all but most situations even in ee if you have one of the barb healing abilities... paying smart it will get you though most situations about as well as pally or barb self healing... and as for bard cc.... once agian in most situations by the time the bard has the 20 ee mobs cced and has started killing a BARBARBARing barb will have already killed everything and be screaming off down the hall clicking more stuff to do it again..... stop click click click click click BARBARBA... dang it i forgot my last two rages.. click click BARBARBARBARABR *blood splatters everywhere* BARBARBARBARBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAR.

Im also sorry to tell you but fb barb in divine crusader is the most absolutly wrong thing in this game... when you combine the heroic damage abilty of barb with the extra self healing and offensive capability of dc.... yeah its just over the top..... its even more clickies which is why i dont personally enjoy it.... and once again if you wanna complain about clickies im with ya 100%... but saying barbs need more BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR..... I cannot help it that you cant pull out of a barb what it can do. Maybe you need to refine your builds and do more tests then come back here.

oh and as for my qualifications also... ive also ran kotc on two different lives since the changes, am very familiar with splashing into defender tree as most paladins today are doing..... and we wont even get into the amount of insanity ive seen a couple of my guildies and friends and even pugs get into with barbs since the changes, and would call the mistress of bards and a henchwoman herself to his hjealoliness teh troll a friend... yak alot with grailhawk, the minister of numbers, on builds and dps numbrs and speculation more than my fair share... I have played way to much of this game over the years.... and I am a mininon to hi hjealoliness myself. I will measure my qualifications for making judgements on this type of thing all day against YOURS dude and come ahead.

[redoubt]

is that because the barbarian doesn't do enough damage to get the job done?

[jalont]

I've been playing with new barbs for awhile, and I just want to say that I was wrong. These changes are good. At this point, I believe a pure barbarian is the optimal toon for advanced players. I have beaten all my personal best speed records on a barb, and I'm hearing the same from most players.

In some ways bard and pally are better because they're a great option for new players and vet players alike, while barbs are a bad choice for new players. Still, in the hands of a vet, barbs are the top class in the game.

[XxJFGxX]

hmmm im really really thinking you forgot...

+10 Melee Power
When raging your melee attacks have a 5% chance to deal 400 bludgeoning damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

lets see 400/20=20 damage average a swing just for this part of it not counting the clicky... and thats before mele power is applied.. if procced on an adrenalin, or procs in blitz, or any of the other big boosting abilities along with mele power gianed through barb and epic levels.... we get much closer to 30-45 damage average per swing.... on top of the clicky.... im sorry if you do not realize that this ability basically out matches holysword.

As for you saying i'm again wrong when it comes to holy sword zeal dm.... well i just allayed the strongest barb point versus the strongest pal point and the barb is stronger.... and if you lay out the REST of the damage mods for pally outside of holy sword, then lay good build barbs abilities outside of storms eye.... when you get into rage and vicous damage cleaves and you know what sorry but you wanted to go dm for pally.... well guess what then a barb can build for some harper loving... if measured head to head barb is stronger than paladin... sorry it is.

The extra 400 damage from the capstone with a 5% chance to proc isn't going to outshine holy sword whatsoever. A paladin would be criting ALOT more than a barb and doing more DPS than a barb in the long run regardless of ED. And if you want to go into the harper tree well ANY class can use the harper tree.

Now there is a caveat here.... paladin requires 14 pally for its true strength 18/20 if you wanna be strongest vangaurd.... barb is strongest as pure 20 bare none because of storms eye. Paladin builds are also a bit more versatile and the trees themselves are in general better then the barb trees when split apart.... but the argument was here and what you guys keep harping on BAARBS NEEEEEEED MOOOOOOOOOORRRE DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPSSSSSSSS BAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH.....

Sorry dude but a well built barb already OUT DPS A WELL BUILD PALADIN...if you dont know this.... sorry then build better. Will a less optomized paladin still outdo a less optimized barb.... you know with holy sword involved and no storms eye for the barb... then yeah paladin is ahead.... so barb is pigeonholed a bit.... but that pigeonhole is really deep and has much bar in it.....

First of all what makes you think I play a Vanguard? I personally like using KoTC but whatever. And like I said before Storm's Eye doesn't match up to a Paladin whatsoever. Reason why? It goes back to the critical threat range and multiplier from holy sword and double strike from zeal while a barbs critical power is stuck on a 19-20. That's something that you fail to realize.

Im also sorry to tell you but fb barb in divine crusader is the most absolutly wrong thing in this game... when you combine the heroic damage abilty of barb with the extra self healing and offensive capability of dc.... yeah its just over the top..... its even more clickies which is why i dont personally enjoy it.... and once again if you wanna complain about clickies im with ya 100%... but saying barbs need more BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR..... I cannot help it that you cant pull out of a barb what it can do. Maybe you need to refine your builds and do more tests then come back here.

If you don't like a FB barb in Divine Crusader then go cry to the devs about it. Ummm refine my build eh? Even though my bladeforged 18 barb/ 1fvs/ 1 fighter doing 20k+ in AoE damage. What you still fail to realize that people arn't necessarily complaining about barbs need more damage per say is that the enhancement trees needs more work. Have you ever looked at some of the abilities in the tree and think how useful it is in EE? I doubt you have.

oh and as for my qualifications also... ive also ran kotc on two different lives since the changes, am very familiar with splashing into defender tree as most paladins today are doing..... and we wont even get into the amount of insanity ive seen a couple of my guildies and friends and even pugs get into with barbs since the changes, and would call the mistress of bards and a henchwoman herself to his hjealoliness teh troll a friend... yak alot with grailhawk, the minister of numbers, on builds and dps numbrs and speculation more than my fair share... I have played way to much of this game over the years.... and I am a mininon to hi hjealoliness myself. I will measure my qualifications for making judgements on this type of thing all day against YOURS dude and come ahead.

I don't care about your little non existent qualifications in a VIDEO GAME whatsoever. And I suspect that noone else cares also. A bit of advice, either learn how to spell and punctuate or use spell check then maybe, MAYBE I would take your posts a little more seriously.

[Monkey-Boy]

even though my bladeforged 18 barb . . .

lolz . . .

[XxJFGxX]

Unlike many here I can tell you first hand that Frenzied Barb is indeed top DPS in the game (how couldn't it be, at up to X10 multiplier and 25 base damage from storms eye alone!*)... superior non crit base damage, 5000-6000 point crits WITHOUT BLITZ**. In fact I was critting for 2500-3000 in Kings forest on a level 20 1st life Barb without ANY ED's, and this reached 3000-4000 when I took overwhelming crit but before I was even able to navigate over to LD (for Devastating Crit and Headmans chop). HOWEVER the problem isn't FB DPS, the problem is Rav and OS still really suck.

Again I disagree. Paladins are still stronger in the long run against barbs in terms of DPS(Damage per Second). If you are talking about SOLELY a 19-20 crit hit than yes barbs are stronger in that aspect but in actual long term DPS paladins are still ahead because of holy sword and what it does.

MOST of the problem (in my opinion of course) is still that Rage costs more in penalties than it's worth EXCEPT for a pure 20 Barb in FB capstone. Sure you guys have tweaked it, and it is more worth the penalties... but it is still very punitive. Now you could make a better OS T5 and make it work without rage, and you could remove the Rage prerequisite from Ravager T5 and quickly solve that problem...

Rav and OS simply DO NOT HAVE FUN THINGS in their trees, that make up for the loss of DPS of not taking FB and it's T5 and Core 18 and Capstone. The main difference in DPS between a 14 level Paladin, and a pure Barb is Death Frenzy, The Capstone (Storms Eye), the T5 +1W (that costs self healing). Without those a Barbarian is CLEARLY INFERIOR choice to a Paladin, because a Paladin does not get crippled when he casts Holy Sword, and a Paladin comes with self heals and defense that are FAR superior to a Barb's. This means that Rav and OS are clearly inferior to Paladin's and it's why you're getting so much flack. Not everyone wants their Barb to be a full ****** FB capstone.

The Ravager tree sucking is something I have been saying ever since they re-vamped the barbarians. The only good things from Ravager is critical rage and blood strength. That's it. All the other main abilities like cruel cut, i like pain line etc doesn't hold a candle in EE.

HatsuharuZ said it the best, "My issue with Ravager is this: How many ways can a pure barbarian take advantage of the debuffs in this tree? Not many. It has various ways of debuffing enemies, but the only ability in this tree that makes use of them in this tree is the capstone."

And the change to epic ward that lowers mobs chance to ignore stat damage is nice but still means nothing because mobs on EE recover stat point damage almost instantly.

The problem with Rav and OS is very similar to Warchanter IMO In fact we had this same "standoff" with Warchanter if you guys recall... There's no MEAT in the OS and Rav trees.. Especially OS both trees should have some ability that allows or improves CC (tacticals) like Warchanter, and one or both should have some sort of movement perk that adds offense or CC or Defence...

I know I'm a broken record but being a Broken record helped Spellsinger and Warchanter (I didn't need to be a broken record with Paladin, Sev's initial Paladin trees were home runs right off the bat) so here we go again:

Shoulder Bash (like Staff lunge or Shield Charge, a half distance abundant step that's targeted and does CC at the point of contact) this ability takes skill to use properly so should be "low hanging fruit"

Charge (a full abudant step with K.O at the end) this ability is mostly for fun factor and because it's so generically Barbarian should be added as a Class perk instead of being locked into one trees T5 ability... As a compromise it could be a T4... Yes I want my FB to be able to charge... ****** this stuff is FUN you guys too often want to dole out FUN like it's something that should be given out cautiously, and with concern. Stop doing that

Pommel Smash stun added to Rav. this could share a cooldown with Stunning blow if that is deemed necessary, but I would like to see both abilities useable cycling between them, if it's deemed necessary then I would like to see TWO CC's in Rav, perhaps an Improved Stunning blow that does share a cooldown with the feat, or a Leg sweep (multi target trip) that shares a cooldown with trip (yes this would also be a way to alleviate some of the feat starvation a barb suffers from, just like the cleaves in KotC).

Honestly good ideas, I think they should add charge as a barbarian class ability regardless of PrE like abundant step is to monks.

Oh and BTW I know no ones said it before *cough* but please make Frenzy and Death frenzy longer or tack them onto rage.

Better yet, make frenzy and death frenzy a toggle. Because I don't know about you but it is too much management worrying about refreshing my frenzies every single minute.

[Qhualor]

A paladin would be criting ALOT more than a barb and doing more DPS than a barb in the long run regardless of ED.


And like I said before Storm's Eye doesn't match up to a Paladin whatsoever. Reason why? It goes back to the critical threat range and multiplier from holy sword and double strike from zeal while a barbs critical power is stuck on a 19-20. That's something that you fail to realize.

Paladins critting more than a barb? that's sounds like someones wet dream come true.

barbs are not stuck on 19-20. my current 18 barb/2 PDK fighter in FB and doing it as a past life is dual wielding longswords and not geared out like a proper barb should be. Oathblade crit range of 15-20 main hand and Tinah crit range of 17-20. you don't even want to know my main using an ESOS is critting for. honestly, im only seeing the really experienced Paladin players outshining an equivalent barb in straight up dps. even EE mobs are going down too fast to try to be comparable and can only see it when you are fighting the end boss with 50k + hp.

[XxJFGxX]

No offense, and we're on the same side of this issue for the most part; but this is where actual experience playing a 20 barb comes into play. Storms eye does not lose stacks until you're below 50% health they don't decay, and 25 damage is basically the equivelent of getting a bonus of +5[W] on most one handed weapons, Base damage or +[W] is in many ways superior to increased Multiplier or Range because it is applied to every hit, not just crits, and it is also multiplied. A full ****** FB with everything going using Adaxus can hit 400-500 non crit base damage and I don't have to do the math on 19-20X10 Taken as a whole (and ignoring the cost of rage penalties): Rage + Frenzy + Death frenzy + Storms eye and T5 +1[W] are definitely superior melee DPS. Sure I take issue with the notion that Storms Eye by itself outweighs Holy Sword, situationally it can, in EH where you're less likely to take 50% of your health bar before you can heal, for example...

One handed barb? Hey whatever your play style is, is your play style but not every barb or paladin plays one handed. And playing on EH? If you're playing on EH, EH is a joke. Any ways, as to Storm's Eye by itself out weighing Holy Sword is simply not true. Yeah Storm's Eye maybe doing a little more damage on non crits but it doesn't compare to Holy Sword when a barbarians critical power come from a 19-20 where as a paladins has much more critical range. And Holy Sword applies to ANY weapon or weapons that paladin is holding at the time of cast.

The solution is better OS and Rav trees, and frankly less Rage penalties but again I can tell they're not likely to budge any more on Rage.

Occult Slayer is a survival/anti-caster PrE. And Ravager for the most part is just horrible. But I've explained this before with my proposed changes for Ravager.