Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[Zerkul]

Our current thinking for Barbarian updates:

* We'll still put in most of the previously proposed changes.
* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.
* Additionally, we'll look into Visage of Terror to check reports that it stops working after a while. (If you have additional information on this to help narrow down when this happens, that's great!)

... Would be nice to get a lesser +20 Heart to change class if things get changed this much.

Storm's Eye was one of the reasons why I TRed into barbarian again and if it changes I would like to go back to my previous build.

[Qhualor]

Our current thinking for Barbarian updates:

* We'll still put in most of the previously proposed changes.
* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.
* Additionally, we'll look into Visage of Terror to check reports that it stops working after a while. (If you have additional information on this to help narrow down when this happens, that's great!)

when you say "most" which ones will not be?

[ValariusK]

Our current thinking for Barbarian updates:

* We'll still put in most of the previously proposed changes.
* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.
* Additionally, we'll look into Visage of Terror to check reports that it stops working after a while. (If you have additional information on this to help narrow down when this happens, that's great!)

Are you fixing the broken stat enhancements (the +1 strength in tier 3 and tier 4 ravager) also?
Easy to verify, just assign them and your stat doesn't increase.

[Vargouille]

We're probably not going to change Laughter.

Are you fixing the broken stat enhancements (the +1 strength in tier 3 and tier 4 ravager) also?
Easy to verify, just assign them and your stat doesn't increase.

Yes. We've found the issue and are addressing this as well.

[bbqzor]

Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.

Good. If you werent going to change it to something new as I suggested, this was my next favorite idea. Can you please change the AP cost back to 1 like the other capstones as well? I find it irritating FB has an extra AP tax there. Without this on 24/7 I dont think a case could be made that its "twice as good" as other capstones anymore.

We'll still put in most of the previously proposed changes (possibly not changing Laughter's melee power boost, for instance).

We're probably not going to change Laughter.

Can we ask why? The Laughter change was specifically one of the ones I was most happy to see. That whole tree (pre T5) is largely a game of "where I can waste points the least", this was one spot which made a medicore ability into a good one. One of the issues is that weapons can have a large variation in critical threat range, making the ability "more powerful" to multiclass or splash builds (that further increase threat range) than pure barbs (who are often using great axes or heavy picks or something with a smaller range).

Even with the increase from ravager, on such weapons (base 20, 17-20 after imp crit and crit rage) Laughter is exactly 1 melee power average. Even on something like a kopesh (19-20 base, 15-20 after imp crit and crit rage) its only 1.5 melee power. For reference, remember that a single Harper Enhancement yields 2 melee power for the same 2 AP that Laughter costs, with the option to go up to 3.

If you dont want to make this 10 on hit, maybe 5 on hit? Thats still an average of 2.5 melee power, comparable to the harper tree (slightly better returns, but requires a hit so wont be on exactly 24/7, and is higher in the tree to acquire, and has a pre-req as well). That prevents the whole "10 melee power from greater rage and 10 from this" which is what I presume you are concerned over. But 5 on hit is still superior to 10 on crits, and sidesteps the issue that "on crit" is very poor for many barbarian builds, while being very good for several barb splashes. Its a barb tree... the class itself ought to be able to put the abilities to good use.

Or, maybe 5 on hit, but 10 on crits? Then everyone wins. Just some thoughts... hate to see this one get yanked, its seriously one of the more deserved changes. That tree is kind of terrible until you crack 30 pts =/

[Zoda]

... Would be nice to get a lesser +20 Heart to change class if things get changed this much.

Storm's Eye was one of the reasons why I TRed into barbarian again and if it changes I would like to go back to my previous build.

Exactly. 3 of my last 4 builds got targeted nerf, getting really fed up with this bs, test your stuff before you release it, please.

I'd also want to see a statistic of how many barb players can actually make use of this ability. First you make blitz from an ability that actually requires some playing/building skill into a nobrainer passive, now you do the same to storm's eye. I hate this.

Edit: maybe just fix the Golem's Heart/Supreme cleave bug, that'd be a big nerf to Storm's Eye, the ability would keep it's identity and you'd actually fix something that's not WAI instead of just ****ing off a bunch of ppl.

Last 2 times I said I'm never posting my build again... Now I'm really done.

[AeonGreeen]

Greetings,

We wanted to create a follow up thread to see how players are doing with their barbarians. We wanted to get impressions of the tree changes now that people have had time to play with them on live for a bit. Game balance and quality is an ongoing process. We don't want players to feel that changes we make will never be revisited.

We are looking specifically for feedback on how the three barbarian trees are working for you. We are looking for your thoughts on Occult Slayer, Frenzied Berserker, and Ravager. Are they fun? Do the trees seem effective? How do you feel barbarian compares to other classes?

Sev~

Barbarian is broken without evasion imho had to take two levels of rogue to fix that...... hmmmmm

[Stinging_Bee]

Our current thinking for Barbarian updates:

* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.

Very very poor decision ImHo.
Storm's eye is the only feature that make the barbarian dps compete with paladins.
Don't touch it cause as it is now is just fine. It's already possible to loose the buff if you go down 50% hp

[Zoda]

Very very poor decision ImHo.
Storm's eye is the only feature that make the barbarian dps compete with paladins.
Don't touch it cause as it is now is just fine. It's already possible to loose the buff if you go down 50% hp

That.

It's already sad that pally can competes with barb dpswise instead of with ranger and not fighter with barb.

At least we get "balance" passes every update instead of content.

[depositbox]

That.

It's already sad that pally can competes with barb dpswise instead of with ranger and not fighter with barb.

At least we get "balance" passes every update instead of content.

I believe a pally should out dps rangers and even fighters.

[lyrecono]

Our current thinking for Barbarian updates:

* We'll still put in most of the previously proposed changes (possibly not changing Laughter's melee power boost, for instance).
* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.
* Additionally, we'll look into Visage of Terror to check reports that it stops working after a while. (If you have additional information on this to help narrow down when this happens, that's great!)

what a nonsense,
the barb needs more dps not a nerf

this blatent bait and switch stuff is getting out of hand, half the enh are still use impaired fluf and just taken to qualify for the tier 5 enhancements.
with this there is even less reason to go pure barb, cutting of at 12 or 18 at best.
Storm eye was already far from optimal with the damage output in EE's and required barbs to becomme hp bags but with effectivly their hp cut in half already, in order to sustain this mechanic.
no i know you're prob not going to do this but i suggest changing the line of die harder and up (blood tribute/blood trail/exhausting blow) and replace m with a danage line (+1 damage, 2 with a 3 with a 2handed weapon).
replace storm eye with a +4 or +5 [W] cleave and lower the cooldown of Slaughter and cruel cut and change them to melee cleaves.


But in the likely chance this won't be read:
I would like a free +20 lr heart to fix this debacle
once these changes hit live do we make a ticket and have a gm send us a +20 heart or do we get one automaticly when we have barb levels?

[Cetus]

I believe a pally should out dps rangers and even fighters.

You think pally's should do more damage than fighters?

Lol

Well, considering the deep hole fighters are in right now, you should be quite happy then.

[depositbox]

You think pally's should do more damage than fighters?

Lol

Well, considering the deep hole fighters are in right now, you should be quite happy then.

Yes, fighters get more feats. More versatility. They can pick up multiple weapon critical improvements, fighting styles, and tactics. That is where they standout. Paladins if going from dnd as a base(not strictly mind you) should do more damage, They get +5 swords, smites, steeds and bonus to damage versus evil/undead. Im not sure what is so lol about it, but if it makes you happy to laugh ignorantly, sure go lol till youre blue in the face. It doesnt make me happy. Just the way I see things, Cetus. Dont have to get all defensive.

[andreascott89]

While you have the Barbarian code open, could you take a look at all the rounding that goes on with Blood Strength?

The stated formula for the healing amount is:

(Barb level)/2 * Melee Power factor * Healing amp factor = BL/2 * MPF * HAF

I have been able to test this with the following combinations:

BL: 12 / 13
MPF: 1.0 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.4
HAF: 1.5 / 2.7

From this testing, the healing from a blood strength proc comes from this formula:

int(int(int(BL/2)*MPF)*HAF)

where "int" means truncate the answer (i.e. round down).

I know a hallmark of D&D is rounding down, but that is an awful lot of rounding down! (FWIW, MPF is factored in before HAF, and because of the rounding rules, the order actual matters...)

Could we possibly have this updated to only round down at the end? Something like:

int[(BL/2)*MPF*HAF]

In my normal setup, with BL=13, MPF=1.3 and HAF = 2.7 the current calculation results in blood strength healing of 18. If we just round at the end, the healing would be 22. The extra rounding is costing me about 20% worth of healing.

The impact could be even larger in certain situations. For example, suppose someone splashed 5 barb levels to get blood strength (*HA* I know, but this is just an example!), if they have 45% MP and 40% healing amp, the rounding at the end yields (5/2) * 1.45 * 1.4 = 5.075 or 5 rounded. With the current formula, you would get int(5/2) = 2, then int(2*1.45) = 2, then int(2*1.4) =2 or 2 healing. Here, the excessive rounding is reducing the healing by 60%.

Thanks for your consideration,

J

[Chacka_DDO]

If you considering changes to make the medium armor use for barbarian more valuable and not forcing barbarians to take heavy armor for there way higher benefits:

I just got some thoughts regarding this.

First is that there was already some sort of possibility for this issue.
The mithral armor.
Intended or not intended this option is no longer there because if you ware mithral armor that is in fact heavy it just don’t give the benefits as if they are heavy.
Just because the item enhancements say it is medium even if it is plate armor etc.
If you change this there is an option again, just with the use of the mithral metal.

Just as an additional idea: it would be possible to create some kind of armor you could not bear if it was made of steel. Only possible to equip it if its made of mithral and you get some extra prr and mrr if you do. This, to not cut away the benefit for the heavy armor feat at all by giving them access to a not to big extra prr/mrr bonus if they find such an armor. (for Bladeforged and Warforged, maybe via an additional feat, access only if you have Adamantine Body already)

I also want to mention at this point that the body feat for the War forged and Blade forged are not consistent at this point. Even if I think you aware of it I want to point it out. In think the reason is an balance issue.
But for my understanding, every Warforged and Bladeforged a wares by default light armor and suffers some penalty for it. So why don't they get the PRR and MRR the light armor should provide?
Just as a side note regarding MRR and PRR and I want to mention this is one of the very best changes to the game because it makes me feel like I ware thicker armor when I do and that's very important for my personal game experience.
I noticed also, that even the cheapest armor gives the same benefits in mrr and prr because its only feat related. This could maybe improved to give maybe less benefit for common armor as it is now and the same for rare (I don't want to see the incoming damage even more lowered, its just for the logic: better armor more benefit). Maybe just armor enhancement score related.

An idea to make medium armor valuable for an Barbarian is to give them evasion against traps when they do. And only against traps.
Just because of the reason they get already the Trap Sense feat and therefore it would fit well if this is maybe an additional benefit if your a lvl 20 Barbarian (or so) and ware not so heavy armor.

[Qhualor]

I wouldn't say evasion against traps, but I would like Trap Sense to work better for barbarians. If it was improved enough to be viable, it could only work with medium/light/no armor. Restrictions I would like to see for barbs wearing heavy armor would be loss of barb run speed, Trap Sense and barb DR/reduction in PRR. While raging in medium/light/no armor gain bonus PRR.

[maddong]

Why not just leave the FB cores as they are and just improve tier 5 FB and tier 5 occult specifically so not everyone goes FB 20/ravager tier 5?

Perhaps blood strength needs to not work on cleave attacks?

Or move storms eye into tier 5 FB but with bonus max based on barb levels?

Barbarians should at least be capable of the best dps.

[Zoda]

Why not just leave the FB cores as they are and just improve tier 5 FB and tier 5 occult specifically so not everyone goes FB 20/ravager tier 5?

Perhaps blood strength needs to not work on cleave attacks?

Or move storms eye into tier 5 FB but with bonus max based on barb levels?

Barbarians should at least be capable of the best dps.

Which would only work in waterworks if you make Storm's Eye and Blood Strength mutually exclusive.

The Golem's Heart bug is all that needs to be fixed and ppl will lose Storm's Eye left and right. But fixing bugs is hard, lets nerf instead!

Btw from my own example, champions can take Storm's Eye away with a single hit easily even with the Golem's Heart bug, because they simply take it with 1 hit/shot (and I have 1700+ hp).

[Franinho]

Storm's eye is one of those abilities that push you to rework your build to give maximum benefits for maximum investments, in this case, it's players who though out their builds and pay them well to benefit from that. If you nerf storm's eye i believe you will just show that you don't appreciate player's ingenuity and base your nerfing ideas on 5 players accross the game who know how to maximise their builds to push the envelope. And it's just make pally dps outshine everything else again in which case i don't see anyone playing anything else ever. period.

tl;dr

stupid decision nerfing storm's eye because of 5 players who know how to use it wo max efficiency

[Tesrali]

* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.

Please leave this be. I love how it currently works. As a dwarf barbarian it really gives me a substantial buff I am pamper myself. Squishy humans get that lovely 20% damage boost. It is really tough keeping the buff up, but it demands good play. These are crazy barb axers. What the guy says above me is pretty correct!