Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[nibel]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

Make it like the Divine Crusader capstone core: Click on it, get a super high buff (+25 damage), and let the buff decrease as the time pass by.

[HatsuharuZ]

My thought on Storm's Eye:

Make it a "guard" effect that gives you temporary +1 bonus to damage whenever you are attacked, which stacks up to 15 times or so. That way it would taper off whenever you're not in combat, but become more powerful in longer encounters.

[maddong]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

I think FB 42 AP is fine stand alone... the problem is that you are much better off mixing it with Tier 5 Ravager (blood strength and crit rage) and human action boost instead of taking Tier 5 FB.

[btolson]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

FB capstone is too strong, and just poorly designed in general. It's incredibly easy to have 100% uptime in EN/EH, building up as soon as you zone in while casting your other buffs, without requiring any combat, and at a trivial activation cost. The fact that this capstone needed to cost 2 AP is a good clue that something's wrong with it.

Storm's Eye should really just be redesigned, with a power level that allows the capstone cost to drop to 1 AP. This may mean nerfing it very hard (more than is needed to balance the tree), and redistributing some of its strength elsewhere in the FB tree (maybe with a new t4 enhancement between t3 Mad Munitions and t5 Focus Wide?) and/or barb rage.

[lyrecono]

This is a bit off topic...but had to reply.

I main a cleric, have for years. And always will...mostly for flavor reasons.

People have gotten away from playing divines because they've for the most part lost their niche. With all the self-healing in the game, they just aren't near as necessary.

We do need more incentives to play divines - specifically healing needs to be more useful in groups. I firmly believe that in end game EEs, a solid healer should make the run much easier. Other classes are better at everything else, and their niche - healing is to a large extent obsolete. Arcanes are better casters and Melees are better at melee...so with so much self-healing in DDO what's the min/max reason for playing a divine? There really isn't any.

Bladeforged reconstruct was a huge mistake as it proxy nerfed divine usefulness into the ground and was the nail in the coffin when it comes to team play in DDO. Dumbed down the game a lot in my opinion.

I would like to see them hit that sweet spot where healing is always helpful to a party, but at the same time not mandatory. I thought cocoon hit that sweet spot. With BF reconstruct now we are definitely leaning heavily towards the healing is not required side of the fence right now.

Happy to see that they are buffing rage, atleast one class should get a lot of benefits from divines being in the group.

thats funny and sad, i have seen healers getting rolled up less and less before Bladeforged were introduced, for me, bladeforged were a blessing, a chance to get rid of the heal scroll dependacy.

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

my opinion?
this capstone was the only thing keeping me pure, now the choice for 2 levels of fighter for platemail&towershield prof, 2 combat feats and a attackspeed boost is much easier.
i have been asking for more dps to justify taking a barb over selfhealing dps classes (pali and bard) and now you pull this? why? barbarian hasn't got anything besides dps and now you're taking it away? it already cuts your hp in half, instead of 1800hp i have 900hp otherwise i loose 25 damage.

Originally we only had the healing option because we want Barbarians to be able to join groups without feeling like they need to be "baby sitted" as players put it. Players claimed they wanted an option to have a glass cannon build that was all DPS so we added that - a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation. We don't plan on giving FB both as it would defeat the purpose of the design.

Sev~

understandable

And this is why I still read the forums!
Following on from a brazillion posts about capstones NEEDING to be special, just so there was an alternative to multi, the very first strong cap ...

yep, i don't understand this, the barb needs more dps to separate him from all other classes and a strong "set"of capstones to make the choice to multiclass harder.
The steps to lower teh dps output on the capstone is silly at best

[JOTMON]

I've been very consistent in my opinion, this games niche is multi classing if you make that undesirable you kill the game.

but the choice to multi-class should be tough. gain vs loss..
Currently many capstones suck and offer nothing that isn't trumped by multi-class without a second glance.

I would have liked to have seen the capstone give a feat selection choice.
Now the splashing vs not spashing trades up a feat along with the other class capstone perks.
Makes the choice to splash a little tougher without taking away mult-classing benefits.

[JOTMON]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

The whole point of the Frenzy beserker is to do more damage.. take away the healing not the DPS.
They can choose to jump out of combat and chug pots if they don't want the baby-sitter healer like everyone else..

Don't dial back the capstone, add the melee power - and remove the healing buff.

They definitely don't need anymore defense, but 10 more melee power would still be fitting in my view, the barb should deal massive damage. And anyway, storms eye is still contingent upon staying above 50% health.

See even Cetus says so.. and if Cetus says it...

[Vargouille]

Visage of Terror question, is it wai that after 3-5 uses it stops working all together? last life I was a pure half elf barb with bard dilettante and it kept not doing anything to enemies after 3-5 uses. otherwise good job that was the first life I did not suck in ee content.

This certainly sounds like a bug.

[Seikojin]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

Remake storms eye to be a +5[W] 360 degree melee cleave with a 4 second cooldown. Have the cleaves cooldown be shortened to 1 second while raging, have it not proc other cleave cooldowns. Have the damage stacks be a passive that builds via crits and pops after being at 20 for too long (6 seconds). Like a mini blitz.

[Grailhawk]

but the choice to multi-class should be tough. gain vs loss..
Currently many capstones suck and offer nothing that isn't trumped by multi-class without a second glance.

I would have liked to have seen the capstone give a feat selection choice.
Now the splashing vs not spashing trades up a feat along with the other class capstone perks.
Makes the choice to splash a little tougher without taking away mult-classing benefits.

The FB capstone is not one of the ones that sucks though, even if they reduce the +25 damage to 0 it will still give 10 MP, and the 400 DMG on a natural 20, those two things alone make it considerable (a tough choice) at current its a no brainer.

[ValariusK]

How does a well-geared, tricked out epic barbarian's DPS compare with that of a paladin or a bard presently? I ask because I have played a well geared, tricked out bard and paladin recently. And in those incarnations, I never had a barbarian blow me out on kill count. IMO a barbarian who is equivalent in player skill and gear should probably do at least 20% more DPS than a bard or pally, because the pally brings hardcore defense to the table and the bard brings massive amounts of group utility. The barbarian just brings offense and a lot of annoying little things as well that he has to drop rage to do (even searching for bloody secret doors).

You need to decide just what DPS position a barbarian is supposed to occupy for a best build, best gear toon and rejigger the enhancements to put him there.

[Monkey-Boy]

How does a well-geared, tricked out epic barbarian's DPS compare with that of a paladin or a bard presently?

It wins.

[ValariusK]

It wins.

Well I suppose I'll see myself in 8 levels--my THF barbarian is level 12 presently. A barbarian would need to win by a fair bit to compensate for all of the utility they lose though.

[Monkey-Boy]

Well I suppose I'll see myself in 8 levels--my THF barbarian is level 12 presently. A barbarian would need to win by a fair bit to compensate for all of the utility they lose though.

Cap has been 28 for a while, not 20.

[Qhualor]

Well I suppose I'll see myself in 8 levels--my THF barbarian is level 12 presently. A barbarian would need to win by a fair bit to compensate for all of the utility they lose though.

what utility does a barb lose?

[ValariusK]

what utility does a barb lose?

Easy access to clickies, easy access to all the UMD goodies I have in practically every incarnation. And of course the ability to heal/buff others that pallies and especially bards have in spades. To scroll rez somebody I've got to drop rage, or to search for a secret door or the like.

[ValariusK]

Cap has been 28 for a while, not 20.

I know, I've got epic completionist. But at 20 I'll know how strong they are with an ED backing them and a full rack of twists, as well as their 20 capstone. Extrapolating from there to 28 isn't much of a stretch.
Right now I'm loving the blood strength.

[Qhualor]

Easy access to clickies, easy access to all the UMD goodies I have in practically every incarnation. And of course the ability to heal/buff others that pallies and especially bards have in spades. To scroll rez somebody I've got to drop rage, or to search for a secret door or the like.

you cant lose something if the class never had it.

the way it should be to make up for not being able to cast while raged is to have the highest melee dps in DDO. that's arguably the question and I do think they do, especially with T5 healing and heal amp in the trees to help keep sustained dps. I think the discussion on barb dps is all muddied when a lot of players use LD with Consecrated Ground twisted in or DC with Lay Waste and Momentum twisted in. its almost like players are using a workaround to bypass the alignment restriction and made their own Paladin with an axe icon.

[Vargouille]

Our current thinking for Barbarian updates:

* We'll still put in most of the previously proposed changes (possibly not changing Laughter's melee power boost, for instance).
* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.
* Additionally, we'll look into Visage of Terror to check reports that it stops working after a while. (If you have additional information on this to help narrow down when this happens, that's great!)

[phyrephoenix]

How does a well-geared, tricked out epic barbarian's DPS compare with that of a paladin or a bard presently? I ask because I have played a well geared, tricked out bard and paladin recently. And in those incarnations, I never had a barbarian blow me out on kill count. IMO a barbarian who is equivalent in player skill and gear should probably do at least 20% more DPS than a bard or pally, because the pally brings hardcore defense to the table and the bard brings massive amounts of group utility. The barbarian just brings offense and a lot of annoying little things as well that he has to drop rage to do (even searching for bloody secret doors).

You need to decide just what DPS position a barbarian is supposed to occupy for a best build, best gear toon and rejigger the enhancements to put him there.

This... I don't think barb is clear and away the best, and it should be.