Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[Qhualor]

IR'd my character into a TWF 13 barb/2 fighter PDK Ravager tonight to start his past lives for those. first thing i did was start the SF favor grind so you can guess that i will not be using Consecrated Ground, Cocoon or anything silly like that. focus will be Ravager with some dipping into OS and FB and i see theres some nice enhancements in PDK i will be getting too (first time playing a PDK). each life will be a different tree.

after a few hours of major bank maintenance, character creation, familiarizing myself with the trees again and gearing my character out i only got as far as Necro 2.

so far getting 15 ticks of heal from Blood Strength on hit. didn't notice the heal on kills. i don't know if it was because i was running low level content and taking minor damage or if it was just not working.

Visage of Terror seems to literally work 3-4 times in a quest and that's it. granted i was zerging for the favor and not killing everything that was in my path, but it proced maybe 3 times in Bloody Crypt total and i actually stopped to kill during red DA.

didn't notice any other problems and hopefully i will wrap up my SF favor tomorrow so i can start making my grind up the ladder again.

[edrein]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Ravager
~ Pain Touch should not have a cooldown. We will look into this bug.
~ Mutilate bane damage added to Hate increased to +2d6/4d6/6d6
~ Laughter now adds 10 Melee Power when Slaughter hits (as opposed to only when it crits)

Frenzied Berserker
~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Occult Slayer
~ Fix Mind Over Magic bug when Constitution changes.
~ One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

Sev~

Can we please see this turned to racial healing Sev? I'd love to run undead barbarian splashes or a warforged that doesn't have to slot heal amp constantly.

[Artaxe]

Please, consider giving more max dex bonus in medium armor for barbarians to make it viable compared to heavy armor, making the passive uncanny dodge bonus more useful. Also, heavy armor is 15 MRR ahead, we could get a buff in MRR when raging or even something like +6 reflex.

And i think the devs could also invert the DR PRR interaction and nerf the Shadowscale Plate DR, just my opinion. lol.

[Dalsheel]

Frenzied Berserker
~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Healing or Hurting needs to stop being a multiselector, and simply give both effects for 2 action points.

Healing AND Hurting.

FB is the all-in-DPS tree, we should not be forced to select between self-heals or dps, especially when the self-healing part is clearly inferior to the Ravager one.

[axel15810]

I'll have to try a barb again.... Just cant wrap my my head around a self sufficient pure barb though.. Just seems wrong...

I would LOVE to see a major Cleric/FvS pass... Something that really makes a healing class fun to play again. people have gotten away from Clerics because they hate healing. They stopped playing them because its not fun anymore. I never had an issue throwing heals on the barbs and fighters in the party when playing my clerics or favored souls. I did take exception when it got to the point where that was the only thing a cleric was good for.

Fixing Clerics and Favored Souls will open up a LOT more options for fixing the melee classes.

This is a bit off topic...but had to reply.

I main a cleric, have for years. And always will...mostly for flavor reasons.

People have gotten away from playing divines because they've for the most part lost their niche. With all the self-healing in the game, they just aren't near as necessary.

We do need more incentives to play divines - specifically healing needs to be more useful in groups. I firmly believe that in end game EEs, a solid healer should make the run much easier. Other classes are better at everything else, and their niche - healing is to a large extent obsolete. Arcanes are better casters and Melees are better at melee...so with so much self-healing in DDO what's the min/max reason for playing a divine? There really isn't any.

Bladeforged reconstruct was a huge mistake as it proxy nerfed divine usefulness into the ground and was the nail in the coffin when it comes to team play in DDO. Dumbed down the game a lot in my opinion.

I would like to see them hit that sweet spot where healing is always helpful to a party, but at the same time not mandatory. I thought cocoon hit that sweet spot. With BF reconstruct now we are definitely leaning heavily towards the healing is not required side of the fence right now.

Happy to see that they are buffing rage, atleast one class should get a lot of benefits from divines being in the group.

[Severlin]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Healing or Hurting needs to stop being a multiselector, and simply give both effects for 2 action points.

Healing AND Hurting.

FB is the all-in-DPS tree, we should not be forced to select between self-heals or dps, especially when the self-healing part is clearly inferior to the Ravager one.

Originally we only had the healing option because we want Barbarians to be able to join groups without feeling like they need to be "baby sitted" as players put it. Players claimed they wanted an option to have a glass cannon build that was all DPS so we added that - a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation. We don't plan on giving FB both as it would defeat the purpose of the design.

Sev~

[Grailhawk]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

Dialing back the capstone is the better choice IMO, this game should not get so capstone loaded that the only choice for a class is to stay pure.

[HatsuharuZ]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

Yeah, I'd say dial back the capstone AND decrease the HP cost when you do.

[bbqzor]

the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage ... a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability

This was pointed out on lam... along with notes that its difficult to use with other barbarian abilities (requiring under 50% or worse on others is its own design flaw). That said, I find it suspicious that by adding 10 melee power this is suddenly a concern... kinda seems like a nerf without looking like a nerf. I am sure some people will prefer to keep 25 damage over 10 melee power... despite that the melee power helps every barb vs just FBs. /Canofworms. At any rate, it was true on lam and its still true, I just hope the nerf isnt unbearable. FB barely keeps up as it is, even with the +25.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes

There is an easier fix.
- Step one, eliminate the cumbersome 50% health requirement. You have PURPOSEFULLY made barbarians function with yo-yo hit points. ALL hp-related effects (half orc, fury of the wild, etc) should get a re-look to balance without such a poor and difficult to use mechanic.
- Step two, allow stacks of Storms Eye to decay. The game is full of effects which scale up and down (Empyrean Magic, Conflagration, Scourge, Vulnerability, Etc etc). Things which go only one way (Storms Eye) or lose their entire stack on a fade at any point (Killer) are outdated and not fun. Make it a two way street, where if you arent hitting things for 6 seconds it can go down a step.
- Step three, take a page from ravager make it a "rage action boost". I use air quotes because if suddenly you cant turn it on at the same time as melee power boost or something there will be rage. But just have it cost a rage to turn on, and last for 1 minute same as frenzy and death frenzy. As long as youre hitting (like blitz, so requires meleeing instead of just standing around for free dps) it goes up. Then when the timer ends it goes down, 1 stack at a time. So it can last longer than its "duration" (like The Growing Storm) but otherwise has to wait on the cooldown.

Problem solved: It no longer has a terrible hp requirement which is just foolish for everyone involved. It no longer only goes upward, it can now go down as well, allowing for it to decay. It costs rages to run, giving Frenzy Berskerers that "zomg needz moar over-ragez" feel, without actually taking away what the ability was supposed to be (a burst dps thing). It also makes sense given that extra rage is in that tree.

It doesnt have to be totally nerfed, you can eliminate the parts which are difficult to actually play around, and add some stuff to take away up-time, without taking away from players enjoyment. Hopefully this at least gives some ideas, if not an exact fix.

Originally we only had the healing option because we want Barbarians to be able to join groups without feeling like they need to be "baby sitted" as players put it. Players claimed they wanted an option to have a glass cannon build that was all DPS so we added that - a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation. We don't plan on giving FB both as it would defeat the purpose of the design.

Maybe the purpose of the design here was bad, thats an option too ya know. I mean you even say "a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation". It means youre viewing healing as mitigation... as neither ability itself actually offers any damage mitigation. Its a flawed design metric.... heal over time heals if youre in combat or not. And its relative "mitigation" depends entirely on how long a given fight is, and what is swinging at you. Its a variable value even if you were to view it that way... how do you even approach balancing it from that angle.

I hope you can reconsider this and see that a heal over time isnt mitigation, and choosing dps in a FB tree maybe shouldnt have such a large sacrifice. Especially when the other barbarian trees have no such downside to their healing. The FB tree has a hard time competing and needs every drop of dps it can get (even more true with changes to storms eye). The other trees have difficulty competing... its why the new 10 melee power needs to go in. Youre really forcing people to play sub-par dps barbarians, or barbarians needing babysitting... its not a case where suddenly your dps is over the top at the drawback of now needing a healer. Its more like your dps is now in line.. or you can lose some to need a healer less. I hope your new test metrics bear this out and we see a change. Barbarians need to have great dps, forcing that dps away or forcing the burden of still needing a babysitter is a tough pill to swallow, even for a tough guy like conan =/

[Qhualor]

Originally we only had the healing option because we want Barbarians to be able to join groups without feeling like they need to be "baby sitted" as players put it. Players claimed they wanted an option to have a glass cannon build that was all DPS so we added that - a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation. We don't plan on giving FB both as it would defeat the purpose of the design.

Sev~

ill take the FB glasscanon with big dps and with low heal amp, but with better mitigation. I still like an alternative suggestion of increased DR..er.. PRR while raging regardless of armor. the issue still remains with heavy armor benefits vs medium/light armor even with your proposed change included.

[Qhualor]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

yes! bring back the flavor of the class and self damage.

[Thrudh]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

Dial back the capstone.

And can we increase how long Frenzy and Death Frenzy last? Refreshing 1-minute buffs throughout an entire quest is very annoying.

[vengfarga]

Dialing back the capstone is the better choice IMO, this game should not get so capstone loaded that the only choice for a class is to stay pure.

And this is why I still read the forums!
Following on from a brazillion posts about capstones NEEDING to be special, just so there was an alternative to multi, the very first strong cap ...

[Grailhawk]

And this is why I still read the forums!
Following on from a brazillion posts about capstones NEEDING to be special, just so there was an alternative to multi, the very first strong cap ...

I've been very consistent in my opinion, this games niche is multi classing if you make that undesirable you kill the game.

[FlaviusMaximus]

And this is why I still read the forums!
Following on from a brazillion posts about capstones NEEDING to be special, just so there was an alternative to multi, the very first strong cap ...

The capstones need to be strong, but not so strong that a single class character becomes the only real option. I can't imagine rolling a Barbarian that isn't a single class character right now. Making the capstones too powerful creates the same problem as making multiclassing too powerful - it eliminates options.

[Thar]

Originally we only had the healing option because we want Barbarians to be able to join groups without feeling like they need to be "baby sitted" as players put it. Players claimed they wanted an option to have a glass cannon build that was all DPS so we added that - a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation. We don't plan on giving FB both as it would defeat the purpose of the design.

Sev~

Then you have to make the healing option as good as the dps option which is tough since dps creates things that give no damage. I don't know of anyone that took the healing prior, another d6 and 20 amp isnt' going to change that. easily need to double it till you make people go hmmm.

[Thar]

An update:

Our internal testing with the proposed changes is over-performing. When we examined why the problem is Storm's Eye and the ability to keep up +25 damage. While we don't want to re-introduce self damaging effects, a sustainable +25 damage is too much damage for one ability.

We are considering either dialing back Storm's Eye to make it have less uptime or just less damage and going ahead with these other listed changes, or dialing back these other changes. We don't particularly like the second option because it stacks too much DPS into the FB capstone and that's probably not a design space we want to be in, but we wanted to get player's opinions on the situation.

Sev~

Why don't you destroy it like the pally enhancement up to 10 damage (on the next swing only...)

[count_spicoli]

Originally we only had the healing option because we want Barbarians to be able to join groups without feeling like they need to be "baby sitted" as players put it. Players claimed they wanted an option to have a glass cannon build that was all DPS so we added that - a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation. We don't plan on giving FB both as it would defeat the purpose of the design.

Sev~

Agree. That was one of the things that has always made this game so great. Give and take. You want high dps sacrifice survivability. You want survivability sacrifice dps. Seems like too many people want all the good stuff with no drawbacks. That is why i never really had a problem with old pally. Survivability with dps sacrifice. Now they are kind of the end all be all melee.

[Cetus]

Originally we only had the healing option because we want Barbarians to be able to join groups without feeling like they need to be "baby sitted" as players put it. Players claimed they wanted an option to have a glass cannon build that was all DPS so we added that - a sacrifice of the healing to build a high DPS character that lacks mitigation. We don't plan on giving FB both as it would defeat the purpose of the design.

Sev~

Don't dial back the capstone, add the melee power - and remove the healing buff.

They definitely don't need anymore defense, but 10 more melee power would still be fitting in my view, the barb should deal massive damage. And anyway, storms eye is still contingent upon staying above 50% health.