Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[maddong]

I love what you did to the class, such minor changes to great effect. I think pure barbarian is probably on top of melee dps now - as it should be (not counting exploiter wolves...).

And centered whirlwind trees....

[lyrecono]

A barb pro told me that Visage stops working after I think 6 minutes.

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This had more health, PRR, DR, and MRR, but it didn't matter since I wasn't in control of my character until dead. I should have gone druid primary for FoM and Death Ward, but was testing higher barb levels, since recent buffs were based on barb levels and high level barb cores.



The existing defensive stats work against existing damage, but then the barb goes 100-0 in chain CC. Slippery mind or not, which I don't think even works, but even if it does work, doesn't actually work effectively enough in game. But against damage, a barb could make it to round 4 DA EE at 20, at which point you get chain simultaneously multiple-held 100-0. Which makes it fun to play, then extremely frustrating when you go 100-0 without ever controlling your barb. It is easier to play a paladin than to make a checklist of which quests are barb friendly, and limit yourself to those quests. So barbs are 1/2 fixed, and only con-based OS capstone barbs are semi-viable, until the OS capstone bugs out. Multi-classing support might have allowed barb to be semi-viable combo'd with divine spell casting, but recent buffs based on barb levels and in high level barb cores makes this play style not supported.


I thought this may be a fluke, so I decided to try out a few EE TBC quests to get orc boots with FoM. Ghost of a Chance I got chain simultaneously stunned (lack of fort save)/commanded (no prot E, lack of will save)/Tactical Detonated (lack of reflex save)/Dazed (no save)100-0:

But that still could be a fluke, so decided to try Old Grey Garl and got chain simultaneously multiple stunned 100-0 due to a lack of fort save:

Then I thought, hey maybe those are just too high level. Lets try a beginner solo EE, and twist in +6 will save. Only to get simultaneously chain CCd 100-0 no-save dancing spells (Due to lack of range on unarmed), comet fall due to a lack of reflex save, and no-fail bugged wolf trips.

Just thought I would toss this up for contrast. This can play in a DPS ED since heailng and tankyness are built in, pulls past red alert, and then kills everything at once, instead of failing quests while pulling 1 group at a time, and never gets chain CCd 100-0. This is a paladin:


Feedback: Hmm...defensive stance non-raged barb using a shield + US isn't tanky enough due to saves. Need to twist in more tankyness, change gear for more saves..

This beat EE Devil Assault at 21:

Hmm... Some (only ones with certain will saving throw level) low level EEs can be done I guess without OS capstone with extreme planning and a mathematically precise pure tank + twist more tank build, combined with top level gear, past lives, full EDs, and tomes and EPL fate points/Tome of Fate. But I'm pretty sure this isn't how people envision playing a barb, let alone have available.

I guess if you are uber, and willing to play barb as a non-barb, you will be far more powerful than any non-paladin melee in low level EE, and more powerful than many casters in certain low level EE. If you are slightly under uber, and have even the slightest weakness in your gear/setup, you will get slaughtered 100-0 without ever being able to control your character. Plus, even though you can enter any EE, without divine grace you will get slaughtered in higher level ones with CC, unlike a paladin. Tolerance is 0 for deviations from uber ultra-tank at low level EE as a low level epic barb. And even as uber ultra-tank, you can still get slaughtered 100-0 in CC if you run accross CC that has no save or a save you didn't or simply can't gear/twist against. I learned that 7-8k EHP from HP/Renewal pre-cast, PRR/MRR +Block Energy + Block Energy Past Lives, and permablur isn't enough to not play uber ultratank. You simply die 100-0 without being able to do anything.

That being said, I BEAT EE DA WITH CHAMPIONS WITH A TURBULENT EPEE AND AXE OF FAMINE AT LEVEL 21 BAHAHAHAHA!

Pro barbarians playing as barbarians in epic raid gear with multi-classed ameliorating strikes/saving throws and playing in DC for consecrate/sacred ground additional healing are having extreme problems doing elite dungeons 4 levels under them.

I cleared most of EE WGU, which is a level 30 quest before others joined on a a paladin thrower at 24, so had little problems in a EE quest 6 levels higher on a paladin. I've seen evidence they barbs catch up at 28 with full T3 TF and all uber gear on an uber character, on certain shorter quests without CC. These are the weak and pathetic saves of an end game barbarian. It would have to roll a 20 to make any save in the game at all, and ends up being limited to certain quests without CC (few of them).

Side Post: Something about champions just wrecks durability. 1 dungeon, and dragon plate armor is toast. I'm going to need to adamantine ritual all of my gear just to see if it lets me do 2 dungeons.

In certain dungeons with limited CC or only low will save requirements, when it does work well, a barb in DC can be only 15% ish behind a paladin in DC, and only 40% behind a paladin in LD, and the healing is enough, if a shield is used to mitigate reflex damage. I went back and did EE DA in 43 minutes in DC, which would have been ~37 minutes on a better dps build design, but is still ~15% slower than a paladin in DC, 40% slower than a paladin in LD, and limited to certain dungeons, unlike divine grace:


and see here for barb vs. paladin videos/screenshots and contrast to above (which was done intentionally in lvl 20 gear).

That being said, low level epic barb is superior to most other pure classes, in dungeons with certain easy CC. Most pure classes would outright fail EE DA at that level. It's just the manner in which barb fails higher up, in many dungeons, when OS capstone bugs, and on a non-uber setup that is really frustrating.

I had similar findings, the lack of saves make m squishy and you need every little drop of past lives & uber gear just to keem m alive, my monchker eats EE with a minimum of past lives and gear, a wolf build or swashbuckler does even better and has more options besides melee

i also noticed the huge amount of damage my gear is taking lately in EE champions fights.

@devs
my own side note:
I have been playing heroics on a barb, in von5/6 i was asked to leave by party members because due to my hp they thought i was playing an epic toon. 814hp whille raging at lv 12.
Is this the direction dev's see a barb going? a slab of useless meat?
When are we going to get some more dps? Barbarians aren't supposed to be generic grey paste type of dps, they are supposed to be on top of the dps ladder, not at the bottom, looking up to the bard (jack of all trades, master of none), the paladin (defencive fighter, good vs undead and demons) and the druid (nature's spellcaster).
They all have spells, skills, saves, class abilities that far outshine the barb, atleast give back the top dps spot.

[MangLord]

I'm inclined to agree with the above post.

Barbarians are still lagging behind paladins, swashbucklers and some other classes when those classes also have the benefit of on-tap greater heroism, blur, bard songs, holy sword, deathward, freedom of movement, swashbuckling, zeal, etc, etc. Aside from what can be consumed as a potion or clickie, barbarians sacrifice cocoon and every other kind of spellcasting once they activate rage, and it in no way equalizes the all-day benefits that other classes get. UMD is also pretty limited of a skill for barbarians unless you make a substantial investment in skill points (possibly all of your skill points), and even then you won't be particularly adept compared to a swashbuckler who can hit just as hard, have better saves, displace themselves and easily achieve a high dodge percentage.

I rolled up a barbarian about a week ago, starting at level 7, just to see what was going on and to accompany a friend that recently TRed. Between the middling damage, lack of self sustainability and total reliance on rage and lesser restoration potions to get through a quest, I just got sick of it by the time I hit level 12. Being at the complete mercy of enemy casters hitting me with Fear and Ray of Enfeeblement just feels sucky (and this is with a mastercrafted resistance item on, +4 to +6 depending on what level I was at the time). Barbarians are still a PITA to play. It was sorta fun in a static group, where I could somewhat rely on the warpriest FvS to keep me alive, but I missed a couple days and fell 4 levels behind everyone else, so I just deleted the character. It wasn't particularly fun to play in a group, so I felt like it'd be even less fun to try and catch up. Most of us were first life, and I was well behind on combat effectiveness compared to the 2nd life mechanic repeater rogue and the 1st life druid wolf. I understand that the rogue will lose a lot of his bite with a repeater after level 15-16, but the pure druid wolf was able to out-dps me by a wide margin, and I geared myself out nicely with optimum crafted gear and mastercrafted deadly/speed/seeker stuff.

My suggestion is to take all the rage bonuses and triple them, and do away with the fatigue penalty entirely. The only purpose for it is to keep barbarians with a load of lesser restoration pots. It's an irritation atop all the other irritations of being a CC magnet. Barbarians need some significant, overall save boosts, at least while raged, and the damage needs to be much better.

Possibly an all-purpose vorpal/disruption/smiting/banishing activate boost effect?
Reign In Blood
For 60 sec a natural roll of 20 will instantly destroy any foe under 1000hp, affected by THF feats for purposes of grazing hit proc effects and cleaves. Enemies over 1000hp take 100 damage. Expends a use of rage.
Yes, it's a Slayer reference, and it would certainly be a nice effect to have for trash duty in large mob fights, at least at heroic levels.

[Artaxe]

I'm having problems with visage of terror and fear me enhancements, they seem to work sometimes then suddenly stop working and only get back if i relog.

[zwiebelring]

I am not seeing any big improvement. It still seems to be depending on how many store pot.s I bought or pot.s I rolled or pot.s I crunched to survive in any meaningful way on ee.

Max. rage provides +11 STR (iirc). That still is done easier by using a Divine Might splash build. Further, those builds don't suffer from using spells or similar and can actively heal themselves.

When do Barbarians get the rage effects adjusted to current ee trash, not even mentioning annoying champions? Rage must provide MRR and PRR and maybe even an extra elemental absorption. 30 of each at least. Do I have to bend as far as being an epic completionist + heroic completionist when I can have more survivability by same dps with a splash build?

The AP needed for the passive healing is too high. The time intervals of those passive healings is another story.

You guys need to do a final decision on whether this game is an MMO with soloing as a limitted option or a single player game with grouping as a limitted/raid only option. But if you decide for one, then it has to count for all classes and builds. So far, there is still imbalance between Pal/Mnk splashes + heal vs. barbarians.

And when do you finally acknowledge that most players in ee pugs do! not! want! to be a babysitter anymore? Sure that's a mentality problem of the players but it becomes a community issue when you change class features, which affects everybody. I still do not see as many barbarian icons as I was used to. Most melees still are splash builds without any barbarian in it. Make barbarian attractive again. Make healing attractive (attractive and needed are 2 very different terms, needed implies you force people to do, attractive implies you make them want to do) again. The party setup I noticed is imbalanced compared to the time before epic destinies.

For god's sake you made me do a nerdrage on Sunday morning! Kobold hates you for this.

[Tilomere]

I finally understand what was going on. Mob spell saves and caster level are equal to Mob CR, which goes into the 70-80 range on higher level EEs, or essentially impossible to make without Divine Grace. Plus bard past life doesn't work or doesn't stack with epic glimpse of the soul, so my saves are down from where they should be.



So you better be uber, with FoM gear and know when to equip it ahead of time, or card duped FoM flask, know ahead of time when to drop rage and UMD Magic Circle of Prot vs. Evil, know ahead of time what twists for Will/Reflex/Fort saves you need, or know what dungeons to avoid due to high caster level mobs, and stick with dungeons close to your level. I did an EE bravery bonus streak to 28 and did mostly fine mixed solo and grouped, and just didn't do Stormhorns solo, gave up on TBC entirely after some disaster runs, and avoided Druids chain to avoid high level casters and especially caster bosses with CC. Once I capped, then I could go back and do Stormhorns solo, if I cheesed the caster bosses and pulled them solo when they weren't worth xp at 28 since FoM boots never dropped for me.

Capped gear saves are somewhat high enough for non-boss caster mobs and are in the high 50s, low 60s. Slippery mind fails though if you aren't uber, or are too low level, or fighting a boss, or fighting something that CCs with a different save type, since a second chance to roll a 20 on a will save isn't very useful.

If you are uber, and somewhat careful on what dungeons you select to play, you will rip through them fairly fast. I noticed my barb started soloing EE bravery bonus faster than he could pug it, and it was very fast leveling, even with a build that was screwed up since it started as a tank build and changed to dps build in epics. One can do more of them with a FoM flask if you were willing to trade in duped cards, or you can farm FoM boots and do some of the dungeons after level 24.

In contrast, Paladin builds have saves in the 90s.

I also looked at debuff durations to see mob caster level, and it seemed mob caster level = mob CR. So Cr 76 bosses make 1d20 + CR spell pen checks up into the 90s. So OS capstone is semi-viable and better but not unlike barb saves.

I think a lot of the shock was when I compared High Road level 26 dungeon EE Medusa boss which was a CR 50 mob and level 50 caster ( based on a 5 minute slow), with a level 29 dungeon Stormhorns boss which was CR 76, with what appears to be a DC 76 save or 26 levels higher in spell pen and spell DC. Gear to protect against this this 28 save/OS spell resist difference between isn't available at 26 vs. 28. And Major Mal in Ghost of a Chance as a CR 68 is way beyond barb save levels ever, and FoM doesn't work. Major Mal in EE Ghost which is a level 27 dungeon is 18 higher caster levels/DC than the Medusa 1 dungeon level down.

[SirValentine]

At this stage in the game I think we either need a potion vendor that sells potions of HEAL

If they wanted to stick to D&D lore, they could have Cure Serious Wounds potions with a caster level of 15.

[Loromir]

It feels to me like the new Barb has a little more DPS at lvls 1-14 then Paladin catches up. After that, there really doesn't seem to be a good reason to play a barb over a Paladin.

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Barb Self healing options get a slight nerf in exchange for even more DPS. A top end Barb should really be doing more DPS than a Paladin.

[Scrabbler]

In contrast, Paladin builds have saves in the 90s.

That's an old design problem, but still an important one they need to solve:

Paladins add 2 stats to their saving throws, while other classes add only 1 stat. Thus it is impossible to balance save DCs both for Paladins and non-Paladin characters.

The way to fix it is to add a bunch of new enhancements which enable a wide range of character types to add a second stat to saving throws. Not all at the same level, not all the same stat, and not to all saves. And it absolutely must not stack if you get two of those abilities. But making dual-stat saves a widespread feature is the only clear way to fix it (besides nerfing Paladins).

For example, someone with a full Occult Slayer tree could add Con mod to Will, Str mod to Reflex, and Wis mod to Fortitude...

[MangLord]

Or just their choice of stacking primal CON or STR modifier to saves for x0.5, x1, x2 for 2/4/6 ap. To be able to focus on one or two stats, I'd happily pay 4/6/8 ap for better barbarian saves. Honestly, that wouldn't break anything, and make barbarians much more enjoyable to play. If barbarian rage applied best stat bonus to saves, that would help a lot. Arcane Archers don't need more than a couple paralyzing arrows to CC a target and then CC the next. Monks have a nearly failproof WIS based encasements/banishing/stun effects. Swashbucklers have a foolproof Coup De Grace. Assassins have a solid instakill effect. Pale Masters can incapacitate an entire mob with some level of build planning, and sorcerers can nuke an entire mob with 1-3 spells. Barbarians get reliable cleaves, assuming you're not immobilized by fear.

I'm fine with paladins having the best saves so long as barbarians can get through an encounter without being CCed the entire time. I'd be ok with a 60% chance of making a will save on heroic elite. A topaz of fear immunity/deathblock and FoM spells don't grow on trees for most players, and slotting a gem can be an issue at heroic levels, where gem slots are relatively rare. It's a nagging problem.

Will mods to rage are fine if you only play Normal difficulty, but I find myself in a constant state of CC uselessness when I play heroic elite. Sometimes I can only get one or two hits in before I'm feared/held for the rest of the encounter. Being constantly held/feared/paralyzed even with the best gear I can make as a top-end cannith crafter with a small stock of augments is irritating enough that I don't want to ever play a barbarian, especially when I can't immediately beeline to an enemy caster and take it out in one big hit effect I can save up for special occasions, similar to an adrenaline boost. The penalty/benefit ratio still isn't nearly balanced. The barbarian trees seemed to have been thrown a ton of HP without the thought of how quickly an elite mob can chunk you down when the rest of the party is occupied with their own problems. My mind immediately goes to being left alone with a beholder in VoN3 while the rest of the party is occupied with others. I feel super gimpy when a paladin can just go off and handle 2-3 beholders by themselves while I need a nanny just to keep me alive as I attempt to close in on the beholders on my side. This is with mastercrafted resistance +5 gloves, ship buffs and a heroism potion. I don't mind dying in worst case scenarios when everyone is overwhelmed, except that a paladin, pale master, warpriest cleric, shintao monk or swashbuckler has so many more ways to win. If i have to deal with terrible saves, I should at least be doing 2x the damage of a swashbuckler wielding a rapier or a vanguard paladin with a longsword stunning everything. Not even optimized builds, just utilizing the benefits of enhancement trees, self healing and class benefits. Barbarians are still way behind.

Giving a primal boost to saves would reward the experienced player that builds appropriately, perhaps allowing a barbarian to stay in the fight at a better than 60% rate per encounter. As of my records, I can't reasonably make a will save better than 40% of the time with mastercrafted +5 resistance gloves at level 10, and a 10 starting wisdom.

Have the devs played a barbarian from 1-20 without house unkillability that we always see on Dev videos? I feel like a token investment is made towards playtesting with Cordovan, without getting into the nuts and bolts of the class.

Bottom line: self healing and survivability is much better, but that doesn't entirely address the major issues. DPS is midrange. saves are atrocious. DPS could stand to be boosted, and saves need a lot of help.

[Monkey-Boy]

That's an old design problem, but still an important one they need to solve:

Paladins add 2 stats to their saving throws, while other classes add only 1 stat. Thus it is impossible to balance save DCs both for Paladins and non-Paladin characters.

The way to fix it is to add a bunch of new enhancements which enable a wide range of character types to add a second stat to saving throws. Not all at the same level, not all the same stat, and not to all saves. And it absolutely must not stack if you get two of those abilities. But making dual-stat saves a widespread feature is the only clear way to fix it (besides nerfing Paladins).

For example, someone with a full Occult Slayer tree could add Con mod to Will, Str mod to Reflex, and Wis mod to Fortitude...

A better solution would be to nerf paladins.

Make Divine Grace a resistance bonus, done.

[MangLord]

If you were to nerf paladins, then EE would remain the territory of BYOH evasion builds only. I'm strongly against that, because it's boring and homogenous. I know people are all about booing power creep, but it's really refreshing to see someone without a monk/rogue splash contributing to an EE run. Yes, heavy armor is still behind robes and light armor, but a good heavy armor build is pretty solid. The DM has had a huge advantage for so long that I'm happy to see players get a bit of sunshine once in a while. They did good things for bards and paladins, but barbarians fell short due to all the naysayers.

In this case, I don't see it as a power creep issue, only bringing a lagging class up to where the game difficulty is now. After MOTU and U19, a lot needed to be changed. Bards used to be just terrible, and they're now a valuable asset for both DPS and party buffs. They may not be the best for large mobs, but stick a swashbuckler on a boss or a couple tough opponents (quell duty in MoD for example) and a raid goes so much easier. The bard enhancement pass is something for the devs to look at when it comes to a successful update. A previously awful class was boosted to the forefront.

[JOTMON]

I finally understand what was going on. Mob spell saves and caster level are equal to Mob CR, which goes into the 70-80 range on higher level EEs, or essentially impossible to make without Divine Grace.

So you better be uber, with FoM gear and know when to equip it ahead of time, or card duped FoM flask, know ahead of time when to drop rage and UMD Magic Circle of Prot vs. Evil, know ahead of time what twists for Will/Reflex/Fort saves you need, or know what dungeons to avoid due to high caster level mobs, and stick with dungeons close to your level. ~snip.

or learn to play with others.
Bringing along a party lets others cast buffs and heals and other CC measures.

If you want to be a solo elitist you should have already farmed out all the required gear, clickies, twists, and other goodies, and have a good understanding of the quests.
I wouldn't expect any EE soloist to be unprepared.

The one thing I would like seen changed is dungeon scaling. remove it. Why should any Epic content be scaled based on party size.
In many cases this just makes it easier to solo vs running with a party... something that should have been done before Champions were even considered.

[lyrecono]

Back to barbarians
got my main back to 28, pure barb, still terrible, needs more ways to survive, an enh that gives wil save boost?

[Irongutz2000]

Back to barbarians
got my main back to 28, pure barb, still terrible, needs more ways to survive, an enh that gives wil save boost?

If ur capped barb is horrible then its not the barbs fault . I run a FB barb with nothing more then potions and fast metabolism and have no issues in EE ( stormhorns , EE MOD , etc)

Barbs r veteran class. They r not bards and palis where u can throw gear onn them and they r good. Barbs need silver flame pots , restoration pots and about any other consumable u can think of but if u get this stuff they r very powerful atm. Well a FB is anyways the other 2 trees r meh at best.

[Qhualor]

Back to barbarians
got my main back to 28, pure barb, still terrible, needs more ways to survive, an enh that gives wil save boost?

go human and take the saves boost enhancement.

barbarians have always had low will saves. its always been one of their biggest weaknesses. theres something wrong if you "fix" every classes weaknesses.

[lyrecono]

go human and take the saves boost enhancement.

barbarians have always had low will saves. its always been one of their biggest weaknesses. theres something wrong if you "fix" every classes weaknesses.

pidgeonholling, not going human for a 20 seconds duration of +4 to saves (wich are to low for EE's anyways)

i'm not asking for pali esque saves, i'm asking for the propper tools to deal with EE champions (that i never asked for nor can avoid).
they fixed pali and bard, both are better at dealing with high lv content and outdps/heal/survive/save/skill the barb, where is the fix? where is the ballance?

[lyrecono]

If ur capped barb is horrible then its not the barbs fault . I run a FB barb with nothing more then potions and fast metabolism and have no issues in EE ( stormhorns , EE MOD , etc)

Barbs r veteran class. They r not bards and palis where u can throw gear onn them and they r good. Barbs need silver flame pots , restoration pots and about any other consumable u can think of but if u get this stuff they r very powerful atm. Well a FB is anyways the other 2 trees r meh at best.

now you just hit the nail there

by your standard, the barb is a handicapped class, my point too, the only thing i ask for is the return of propper dps to justify the lack of defence, saves, self healing, skills etc

[Qhualor]

pidgeonholling, not going human for a 20 seconds duration of +4 to saves (wich are to low for EE's anyways)

i'm not asking for pali esque saves, i'm asking for the propper tools to deal with EE champions (that i never asked for nor can avoid).
they fixed pali and bard, both are better at dealing with high lv content and outdps/heal/survive/save/skill the barb, where is the fix? where is the ballance?

the balance would be to decrease paladin overall dps against general mobs and only be excellent against evil, undead and chaotics. im not saying a complete nerf or have paladins go back to subpar dps, but paladins should have high saves and really good self healing.

i cant really speak about bards having never played one, but it seems to me SWF gave them a huge dps boost. they already had good self healing, party buffs and CC.

the only major problem ive had on a barb with will saves have been low level content. yeah sure i get held in EE sometimes, but ive had the same problem playing rogues, fighters, and on occasion monk and paladin. whats been missing from the game since the enhancement revamp and introduction to EDs is the tradeoffs. power creep and multi classing has made it so most classes can have their typical weakness corked. every class i play always has the best at level i can get wisdom and resistance item plus they all have +5 tomes. i don't expect to be able to make every save no matter how much investment i put in, but i do make most saves. you can also take epic will saves if you are having too much of a problem.

[mkmcgw17]

Greetings,

We wanted to create a follow up thread to see how players are doing with their barbarians. We wanted to get impressions of the tree changes now that people have had time to play with them on live for a bit. Game balance and quality is an ongoing process. We don't want players to feel that changes we make will never be revisited.

We are looking specifically for feedback on how the three barbarian trees are working for you. We are looking for your thoughts on Occult Slayer, Frenzied Berserker, and Ravager. Are they fun? Do the trees seem effective? How do you feel barbarian compares to other classes?

Sev~

I just started my gimpling dual wield barb/rogue headed for 18/2 and so far i really like the healing amp and hp changes. I'm only 8/2 atm so haven't explored the enhancement trees fully although I think i"ll do a occult slayer main this time with bits from the other two. I use the healing potions from the collectors which are more powerful and do heals over time and although its a bit time consuming chasing them down i can play without a healer if i need too now. So far anyways all quests through 8 solo he (except the ones that take two). I think your on the right track. O by the way swf is over powered needs a little nerfing me thinks. I can tell what the current op builds r by seeing what the spfft (super power farmer fun time) crowd is making and everyone of them has a swf pally. OP.