Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[Tesrali]

Hm. Well you've tweaked my vanity....

No but really, lets focus on your 160 PRR and 1500HP. How are you getting this? Specifically please list each item/enhancement/PLF/tomes.

Dwarf. Frenzied berserker, lvl 26 at the moment. (I have human buddies who are 1500ish at the moment, but at cap. At cap I'll have 1700-1800, am not sure.)

Constitution breakdown

Base: 20
Rage: 10
Level-ups: 6
Tome: 5
Enhancements: 3 ravager, 6 frenzied berserker, 2 racial
Equipment: 7 aug, 2 insightful
Destiny: 1
Primal scream: 5
Total: 69

Health breakdown

20 barbarian levels: 240
6 epic levels: 60
dwarf enhancements: 20
frenzied enhancements: 80
occult slayer enhancements: 40
draconic vitality: 10
heroic durability: 30
barb past-lives: 10
primal past-lives: 77
constitution bonus: 754
greensteel: 45
hag guild buff: 20
legendary dreadnaught cores: 60
Total: 1446 X 1.02 child of the mountain
Total: 1474, but my toon says over 1500 right now so I'm missing some stuff. Not sure if someone could help me.

Note: I have 100 hp from past lives (87 if you are being careful).

Physical Resistance Rating Breakdown

Blitz: 30
Heavy armor: 45
(BAB bonus): 29
WGU ring: 24
PDK past lives: 9
Divine past lives: 15
Frenzied toughness: 10
Total: 162
Damage eliminated: 62%

No Blitz or past lives, in Divine Crusader: 118
Damage eliminated: 53%

So 10% damage elimination difference (versus 9% if we're careful).

[HatsuharuZ]

If their durability/survivability is an issue, simply make barbarians a bit more durable by giving them more DR/- from class levels and removing other sources of DR.

Currently, a barbarian gets:

7 DR/- from 20 barb class levels.
3 DR/- from the "Damage Reduction" 2nd tier ED ability in FotW.
4 DR/- from spending 34 AP in the Occult Slayer Tree.

That's a total of 14 DR/- at level 20, assuming a pure barb spending almost half of his AP in OC and taking the "Damage Reduction" ED (which requires a 2nd tier ToF slot).


My Suggestion:

Step 1: Remove the DR/- from OC enhancements and FotW. That's 7 DR/-.

Step 2: Double the benefit that barbarian receive from their DR-increasing class abilities in heroic levels. That's an increase to 14 DR/- at level 20.

The point of this is to make ALL barbarians more durable without giving them more DR than they currently have access to. Is it enough? Maybe, maybe not. It's certainly better than a measly 7 DR/-!

Off the top of my head, 14 DR/- is only one less than the most powerful DR item except for certain Shadow Dragonscale Armor. Again, this idea simply gives barbarians a significant advantage that they already have access to, but with less investment in points.

[Tesrali]

I don't think I was clear enough - my concern is mechanisms of healing. I am still quite green at barbarians not having played one for some years now until recently. Is your only source of healing SF pots? You find this sufficient due to sufficient hp and PRR then? I haven't got the gear (or build) yet to get those levels of PRR so I'm finding EE a bit expensive and the slow down effect just too much.

Haven't played a paladin for ages so I have no opinion on them. It's more a concern that cocoon is not an option.

I twist consecrated ground and use the small ones. Its good to get your stats high enough so using both kinds doesn't make you helpless, but consecrated ground (tier 3 and tier 2 twists), when not running in divine crusader is the best spent 6 fate points I have. If you slot a devotion aug in your weapon (or pick up the GH trinket) you'll tick yourself for 100 every few seconds.

[Skeen]

Hm. Well you've tweaked my vanity....



Dwarf. Frenzied berserker, lvl 26 at the moment. (I have human buddies who are 1500ish at the moment, but at cap. At cap I'll have 1700-1800, am not sure.)

Constitution breakdown

Base: 20
Rage: 10
Level-ups: 6
Tome: 5
Enhancements: 3 ravager, 6 frenzied berserker, 2 racial
Equipment: 7 aug, 2 insightful
Destiny: 1
Primal scream: 5
Total: 69

Health breakdown

20 barbarian levels: 240
6 epic levels: 60
dwarf enhancements: 20
frenzied enhancements: 80
occult slayer enhancements: 40
draconic vitality: 10
heroic durability: 30
barb past-lives: 10
primal past-lives: 77
constitution bonus: 754
greensteel: 45
hag guild buff: 20
legendary dreadnaught cores: 60
Total: 1446 X 1.02 child of the mountain
Total: 1474, but my toon says over 1500 right now so I'm missing some stuff. Not sure if someone could help me.

Note: I have 100 hp from past lives (87 if you are being careful).

Physical Resistance Rating Breakdown

Blitz: 30
Heavy armor: 45
(BAB bonus): 29
WGU ring: 24
PDK past lives: 9
Divine past lives: 15
Frenzied toughness: 10
Total: 162
Damage eliminated: 62%

No Blitz or past lives, in Divine Crusader: 118
Damage eliminated: 53%

So 10% damage elimination difference (versus 9% if we're careful).

Hey, thanks for the break down! I didn't realize Blitz and the past life bonus to get to 160. Looks like a good build, except I hate stubby dwarf legs

[MeliCat]

I twist consecrated ground and use the small ones. Its good to get your stats high enough so using both kinds doesn't make you helpless, but consecrated ground (tier 3 and tier 2 twists), when not running in divine crusader is the best spent 6 fate points I have. If you slot a devotion aug in your weapon (or pick up the GH trinket) you'll tick yourself for 100 every few seconds.

ty for the tip Tes.

Mind you my barbarian is just in the process of capping itself in it's first ED. It will be a long time from Fury to DC and sufficient fate points for twists. It is a long abandoned horc (abandoned way back due to the broken THF animation I just hated the feel of). More and more I suspect the way to go is TR it pally (it's 23 now) and get some pally PL. Getting EDs as is, ain't going to happen as it's way way too painful.

[Robai]

~ We aren't going to be focusing on DR to improve barbarians. We discussed it and we don't want to exaggerate the effect since it would be too powerful against lots of little damage sources and not good enough against hard hitting bosses. I apologize to the players who like the the ability thematically. We decided to focus on the Barbarian's superior hit points as a mechanic instead, and that required us to make healing more effective to match hit points.

Just make the DR from Barbarian Enhancement stacking with other sources of DR. Yes, it won't be enough for hard hitting EE mobs, but at least it would be something special for Barbarian class (and actually useful even in EE, like for archers etc.).

~ We understand that attribute damage is virtually negated by Epic Ward. We are discussing changes to allow more attribute damage through Epic Ward. There has to be a happy medium between "Everyone use puncturing" and "Attribute damage doesn't do anything past level 20." We are in the process of re-examining Epic Ward to see if it needs to be as severe as it is.

Epic Ward is stupid. If some mobs had it then it's ok, but if all have it then it's a problem.
Generally speaking debuffing mobs is useless in this game since trash die fast anyway and bosses are immune to most things. On top of that even trash mobs have Epic ward.
Actually even bosses die too fast, so don't worry about "Everyone use puncturing", since it will be "almost nobody uses puncturing" anyway.
The times where "Elite Shroud part4 takes 3-6 rounds" has long gone, it's almost always 1 round now (even shortmaning).

~ Now that the "heal on kill" works for Ravager it is looking better, but we are watching the performance for epic. Occult Slayer's heal is fairly good but I will bring up the cost with the team. We agree that Frenzied Berserker's heal has fallen behind when we reduced that tree's healing amp and that will probably see a buff.

~ We did add more Strength for rage in the last pass to the base barbarian abilities, but we will be discussing buffing rage based on player feedback.

~ We will look into the Occult Slayer capstone to find whatever bug is causing it to fail. I am not sure about the reported issue with Visage of Terror though; could someone elaborate?

~ We agree that a barbarian might need more reason to stick to medium armor and will discuss what we can do about that in our time constraints.

Sev~

I'd like Barbarian to be more special class, not "yet another typical byoh melee".
You should increase Str bonus for rage based on Barbarian lvl. The capstone should give huge bonus.
If they still struggle give them more DPS.

[Tilomere]

I made a barbarian that did well in heroics and then I hit 20 with him and and decided to test him in EE DA. Cleared first three waves easily, then got chain held in fourth wave with 1-2 second breaks in between for like a half a minute before the combination of chain holds/champions lined up and he died. 1740 HP, 216 PRR, 124 MRR+shield, 100 AC, permablur/ghostly, 260 HAMP.

Then I thought, hey maybe that's a fluke, so I decided to run TBC for some orc boots with FoM. Ghost of a Chance, barb was CCd 100-0 over 35 seconds of two sequential commands. At fight against boss barb was dazed, tactical detonated, and commanded at the same time. So I guess to boil everything down, if it's not a paladin, it's not a paladin.

[MangLord]

Are you investing in gear, augments and clickies to improve your saves? I feel naked heading into epic levels without a top-end resistance item (at least +9 at level cap), a Good Luck +2 sapphire on a piece of gear and a GH clickie/potion or friendly wizard/bard. 10 minute GH potions can be exchanged for common collectables through Verisgante in House Jorasco, or by spending a PDK commendation. Barbarian saves aren't particularly stellar, but you can have a reasonable chance on EH with will and reflex saves in the 40-50 range. Barbarians should have a pretty failproof fortitude save regardless.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Greater_Heroism

Potions of Heroism are readily available through the guild potion vendor in House K, or the Feather Fall shop in House J. Though its only half the GH bonus, it will still give you a +2 morale bonus to saves, skill checks and attack rolls.

Paladin saves are so good that if you're used to that class, you may not be accustomed to needing the extra boosts from gear and consumables.

[davmuzl]

~ We aren't going to be focusing on DR to improve barbarians. We discussed it and we don't want to exaggerate the effect since it would be too powerful against lots of little damage sources and not good enough against hard hitting bosses. I apologize to the players who like the the ability thematically. We decided to focus on the Barbarian's superior hit points as a mechanic instead, and that required us to make healing more effective to match hit points.

One of the main reasons for me to say barbarians need more DR is that there is the heavy shadow plate. The 30-60/epic DR is powerful enough to matter even against very hard hits and afaik it even works against the dragons in the fire on thunder peak raid. It also makes me wonder if there are any monsters in the game that can bypass DR/epic at all. Until medium armor barbarians get a huge boost we can assume that they have DR 30/epic anyway.

[azrael4h]

One of the main reasons for me to say barbarians need more DR is that there is the heavy shadow plate. The 30-60/epic DR is powerful enough to matter even against very hard hits and afaik it even works against the dragons in the fire on thunder peak raid. It also makes me wonder if there are any monsters in the game that can bypass DR/epic at all. Until medium armor barbarians get a huge boost we can assume that they have DR 30/epic anyway.

I had suggested, way back when PRR first came out and people were noting that light/medium armor builds are pretty much screwed with the whole system, that Barbarians should gain PRR for each point of DR. Maybe 5 PRR per 1 DR/-.Of course, I didn't do any calculations, and it would need to be balanced (at 7 DR, that's 35PRR, 14 DR would be 70 and probably a bit much, though it does come at a high cost to the build). Maybe just for the innate DR and not enhancements/ED abilities.

[Tesrali]

Man. This is what it's like to be a Barb. I need more health. These new champions hit hard.

[joke disclaimer]

[Tilomere]

A barb pro told me that Visage stops working after I think 6 minutes.

----------------------------------------

This had more health, PRR, DR, and MRR, but it didn't matter since I wasn't in control of my character until dead. I should have gone druid primary for FoM and Death Ward, but was testing higher barb levels, since recent buffs were based on barb levels and high level barb cores.



The existing defensive stats work against existing damage, but then the barb goes 100-0 in chain CC. Slippery mind or not, which I don't think even works, but even if it does work, doesn't actually work effectively enough in game. But against damage, a barb could make it to round 4 DA EE at 20, at which point you get chain simultaneously multiple-held 100-0. Which makes it fun to play, then extremely frustrating when you go 100-0 without ever controlling your barb. It is easier to play a paladin than to make a checklist of which quests are barb friendly, and limit yourself to those quests. So barbs are 1/2 fixed, and only con-based OS capstone barbs are semi-viable, until the OS capstone bugs out. Multi-classing support might have allowed barb to be semi-viable combo'd with divine spell casting, but recent buffs based on barb levels and in high level barb cores makes this play style not supported.



I thought this may be a fluke, so I decided to try out a few EE TBC quests to get orc boots with FoM. Ghost of a Chance I got chain simultaneously stunned (lack of fort save)/commanded (bugged to last 20 seconds, no prot E, lack of will save)/Tactical Detonated (lack of reflex save)/Dazed (no save)100-0:



But that still could be a fluke, so decided to try Old Grey Garl and got chain simultaneously multiple stunned 100-0 due to a lack of fort save:



Then I thought, hey maybe those are just too high level. Lets try a beginner solo EE, and twist in +6 will save. Only to get simultaneously chain CCd 100-0 no-save dancing spells (Due to lack of range on unarmed), comet fall due to a lack of reflex save, and no-fail bugged wolf trips.



Just thought I would toss this up for contrast. This can play in a DPS ED since heailng and tankyness are built in, pulls past red alert, and then kills everything at once, instead of failing quests while pulling 1 group at a time, and never gets chain CCd 100-0. This is a paladin:



Feedback: Hmm...defensive stance non-raged barb using a shield + US isn't tanky enough due to saves. Need to twist in more tankyness, change gear for more saves..

This beat EE Devil Assault at 21:



Hmm... Some (only ones with certain will saving throw level) low level EEs can be done I guess without OS capstone with extreme planning and a mathematically precise pure tank + twist more tank build, combined with top level gear, past lives, full EDs, and tomes and EPL fate points/Tome of Fate. But I'm pretty sure this isn't how people envision playing a barb, let alone have available.

I guess if you are uber, and willing to play barb as a non-barb, you will be far more powerful than any non-paladin melee in low level EE, and more powerful than many casters in certain low level EE. If you are slightly under uber, and have even the slightest weakness in your gear/setup, you will get slaughtered 100-0 without ever being able to control your character. Plus, even though you can enter any EE, without divine grace you will get slaughtered in higher level ones with CC, unlike a paladin. Tolerance is 0 for deviations from uber ultra-tank at low level EE as a low level epic barb. And even as uber ultra-tank, you can still get slaughtered 100-0 in CC if you run accross CC that has no save or a save you didn't or simply can't gear/twist against. I learned that 7-8k EHP from HP/Renewal pre-cast, PRR/MRR +Block Energy + Block Energy Past Lives, and permablur isn't enough to not play uber ultratank. You simply die 100-0 without being able to do anything.

That being said, I BEAT EE DA WITH CHAMPIONS WITH A TURBULENT EPEE AND AXE OF FAMINE AT LEVEL 21 BAHAHAHAHA!

Pro barbarians playing as barbarians in epic raid gear with multi-classed ameliorating strikes/saving throws and playing in DC for consecrate/sacred ground additional healing are having extreme problems doing elite dungeons 4 levels under them.

I cleared most of EE WGU, which is a level 30 quest before others joined on a a paladin thrower at 24, so had little problems in a EE quest 6 levels higher on a paladin. I've seen evidence they barbs catch up at 28 with full T3 TF and all uber gear on an uber character, on certain shorter quests without CC. These are the weak and pathetic saves of an end game barbarian. It would have to roll a 20 to make any save in the game at all, and ends up being limited to certain quests without CC (few of them).

Side Post: Something about champions just wrecks durability. 1 dungeon, and dragon plate armor is toast. I'm going to need to adamantine ritual all of my gear just to see if it lets me do 2 dungeons.

In certain dungeons with limited CC or only low will save requirements, when it does work well, a barb in DC can be only 15% ish behind a paladin in DC, and only 40% behind a paladin in LD, and the healing is enough, if a shield is used to mitigate reflex damage. I went back and did EE DA in 43 minutes in DC, which would have been ~37 minutes on a better dps build design, but is still ~15% slower than a paladin in DC, 40% slower than a paladin in LD, and limited to certain dungeons, unlike divine grace:


and see here for barb vs. paladin videos/screenshots and contrast to above (which was done intentionally in lvl 20 gear).

That being said, low level epic barb is superior to most other pure classes, in dungeons with certain easy CC. Most pure classes would outright fail EE DA at that level. It's just the manner in which barb fails higher up, in many dungeons, when OS capstone bugs, and on a non-uber setup that is really frustrating.

[mezzorco]

Someone else already suggested those ideas, however:

- Add repair amplification to current healing amplification. The entire "more health & bigger heals" is screwed for WF if they don't get repair amplification too.

- Replace DR with PRR, for example 5 PRR for each point of DR. Only while wearing medium armor or lighter. What I'm saying here is you should totally remove DR from barbarian class features and enhancements, and replace it with PRR. You should really remove any source of DR from the entire game imho.

- Add an epic feat: adds 15 melee power and 15 prr while raging in medium armor or lighter. Prerequisite Greater Rage.

- Tweak Occult Slayer T5 heal, it should spend half your current bond instead of all your current bond.

[lyrecono]

Someone else already suggested those ideas, however:

- Add repair amplification to current healing amplification. The entire "more health & bigger heals" is screwed for WF if they don't get repair amplification too.

- Replace DR with PRR, for example 5 PRR for each point of DR. Only while wearing medium armor or lighter. What I'm saying here is you should totally remove DR from barbarian class features and enhancements, and replace it with PRR. You should really remove any source of DR from the entire game imho.

Only if it adds mrr too, the game has changed, this should too

- Add an epic feat: adds 15 melee power and 15 prr while raging in medium armor or lighter. Prerequisite Greater Rage.

not gone waste a feat on that, ever, heavy armor gives way more then that and all the time

- Tweak Occult Slayer T5 heal, it should spend half your current bond instead of all your current bond.

a barbarian at lv 28 wearing medium armor:
50 prr and mrr from the armor alone

a barbarian at lv 28 wearing heavy armor:
65 mrr and prr from the armor alone

a barbarian at lv 28 wearing heavy armor and has the heavy armor prof feat:
75 prr and mrr from the armor alone

If a barb takes 2 levels of fighter and picks up shielmastery 2X(twist in legend. sh. mastery) and the pdk shield/other towershield and he has a huge defence when having to tank something ( a back up tank, assuming we had content requiring a tank)

the facination with medium armor is strange to say the least, the barb has no stats points to waste in dex, no way to reach meaningfull reflex saves, armor class or skills, a barb is far better of in plate mail, it will reduce incomming damage beter even with the changes you propose.

to be honnest, the best option to help out barbs is this:
Making it worthwille for a party/raid leader to accept a barb in the party, give the barb/healer combo enough dps to compete with 2 munchkers/palies/swashbucklers

[Irongutz2000]

a barbarian at lv 28 wearing medium armor:
50 prr and mrr from the armor alone

a barbarian at lv 28 wearing heavy armor:
65 mrr and prr from the armor alone

a barbarian at lv 28 wearing heavy armor and has the heavy armor prof feat:
75 prr and mrr from the armor alone

If a barb takes 2 levels of fighter and picks up shielmastery 2X(twist in legend. sh. mastery) and the pdk shield/other towershield and he has a huge defence when having to tank something ( a back up tank, assuming we had content requiring a tank)

the facination with medium armor is strange to say the least, the barb has no stats points to waste in dex, no way to reach meaningfull reflex saves, armor class or skills, a barb is far better of in plate mail, it will reduce incomming damage beter even with the changes you propose.

to be honnest, the best option to help out barbs is this:
Making it worthwille for a party/raid leader to accept a barb in the party, give the barb/healer combo enough dps to compete with 2 munchkers/palies/swashbucklers

Barbs DO NOT NEED A HEALER! I can solo most EE 's onn a 20 pure FB barb, with only drinking pots / fast metabolism. FB already does comparable damage to most other classes. They days of cleric follow barb is over, unless of course u don't know how to play but I can't help ya there

[thakorian]

I dunno, barbs are semi-okay currently, I could solo ee da with a ravager in LD and didn't have much trouble. Really weird how spell absorption takes your problems away :P Ravager capstone not working was a bit irritating though.

Then again, barbarians are behind paladins in many aspects but ahead in none, same goes with certain bard-multiclasses. I'm not sure if this should be addressed as of yet as the full potential of the capstones isn't where it should be due to bugs.

[maddong]

After watching Zoda's videos I would say that at least Tier 5 ravager 20 barbarians healing is fine in EE.

Supposedly people are getting 400-500 hp from OS Tier 5 with about 20 charges so that sounds fine too (perhaps letting them use a partial bond to heal would be too powerful then?).

[Qhualor]

After watching Zoda's videos I would say that at least Tier 5 ravager 20 barbarians healing is fine in EE.

Supposedly people are getting 400-500 hp from OS Tier 5 with about 20 charges so that sounds fine too (perhaps letting them use a partial bond to heal would be too powerful then?).

I would say pure/mostly barb heal amp, T5 self healing and other sources of heal amp would make a barb too powerful if you include anything more considering most barbarians I see in game have Consecrated Ground. Barbs that don't use Consecrated Ground I think is about right.

[Zoda]

I love what you did to the class, such minor changes to great effect. I think pure barbarian is probably on top of melee dps now - as it should be (not counting exploiter wolves...).

That said, the occult slayer tree is fairly uselss besides the capstone, which is overshadowed by Storm's Eye, which is currently probably the most powerful capstone in the game if your barb is built right.

[MeliCat]

Barbs DO NOT NEED A HEALER! I can solo most EE 's onn a 20 pure FB barb, with only drinking pots / fast metabolism. FB already does comparable damage to most other classes. They days of cleric follow barb is over, unless of course u don't know how to play but I can't help ya there

Yeah working out how to play one to get the most out of it is going to be an interesting challenge. I nod in respect to those players here who seem to have figured it out. Hoping I can muddle through and work it out while earning my EDs. There seem to be enough players around who I can ask questions of. The trick is working out the right questions to ask. Who knows, maybe I'll work out stuff they hadn't realized either