Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[Rinnaldo]

If you're not willing to give Barbarians the DR or PRR which make the most sense for their class, what about an ability equivalent to the Invincibility power orb in Challenges? I'm thinking spend all your Occult Slayer Bond and get 10-20 seconds of taking 0 damage from all sources, and then a looooong cooldown, plus the need to build Bond back up again. That would at least make them feel more powerful in fights that matter. You could even make it a 1-shot power from tier 5 of each of the three trees that only resets on rest.

[Scrabbler]

Running attack animation has faster rate of attacks. Any amount of movement causes running attack animation. There is no animation priority in movement, and attack animations do not have priority over movement.

You are greatly mistating the cause of the exploit. A faster speed for running attacks is not the reason twitch works.

If it's a bug, not a bug like "wow ladders are so hard" but a bug that could be fixed by tweaking animations, it wouldn't have persisted as long as it has (forever.)

Adjusting attack animations is a much more difficult job than correcting networked ladder-grab. After all, if the developers had a good handle on millisecond-animation accuracy, they wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place.

[Connman]

So i am not sure what each and every barbarian enhancement does, but I didn't notice anything that let you sacrifice one of your rages to do something. I remember when I played clerics you could sacrifice turn undead's to do stuff like that aura blast thingies, and I vaguely remember as a ranger you could trade those charm dog thingies or something like that.

If someone else thought of this already great!

What if each tree had a sacrifice rage ability.

FB could be something that gave you a boost to melee power, maybe three tiers with x/y/z increase.
OS could get a big boost to PRR/MRR
Ravager could get something like a mass paralyze or fear.

My wife never rages because she needs to be able to cast cocoon's displacements and such and just doesn't feel it is worth the minor gains to be locked out of casting, so something like this would benefit her and anyone else that chooses not to rage. As well as those that do but they would have tougher choices to make.

[FestusHood]

So i am not sure what each and every barbarian enhancement does, but I didn't notice anything that let you sacrifice one of your rages to do something. I remember when I played clerics you could sacrifice turn undead's to do stuff like that aura blast thingies, and I vaguely remember as a ranger you could trade those charm dog thingies or something like that.

If someone else thought of this already great!

What if each tree had a sacrifice rage ability.

FB could be something that gave you a boost to melee power, maybe three tiers with x/y/z increase.
OS could get a big boost to PRR/MRR
Ravager could get something like a mass paralyze or fear.

My wife never rages because she needs to be able to cast cocoon's displacements and such and just doesn't feel it is worth the minor gains to be locked out of casting, so something like this would benefit her and anyone else that chooses not to rage. As well as those that do but they would have tougher choices to make.

The ravager capstone has an instakill/paralyze ability that is fueled with rages.

[Connman]

The ravager capstone has an instakill/paralyze ability that is fueled with rages.

oh TY, I guess we are on the right track. Is it any good?

[FestusHood]

oh TY, I guess we are on the right track. Is it any good?

Never tried it. The dc is based on constitution. Says it affects up to six monsters.

[Tilomere]

I think the biggest issue is that barbs would rather fail or not play a barb at all than play a barb with a blue bar. Because this isn't strictly a new MMO, with totally innovative classes to be played however you discover or like or power game. It is an MMO tied to table top rules and mindsets. I explained when DC first came out line by line how to full heal a pure barb 20x while raged. The post is here. While people said it would work, they also said it wasn't a solution they were willing to use or the experience people were looking for.

The problem is that they want the game play of a barb in Korthos, that starts at full HP and slaughters their way through a quest without healing with mana. But as you level up the game play changes from barb slaughter into an attrition grind the 1M HP boss into the ground while full healing 50x with Reconstruct SLA or a blue bar. So barbs are completely playable, but will not be played generally until they have the play experience people are looking for, which is going to be blatantly OP when power gamers take that and add a blue bar to it, and everyone who wants xp/min EH/EN runs, which are based on DPS.
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Also, Paladin just has everything now. GL getting people to walk away from everything to play a barb. I think it's a lost cause and you should just move on to FVS, Druid, and Arti, after you nerf paladins down by hard capping Divine Grace to a max of +5 (25% spell avoidance is still better than 20% that dwarfs get, while PnP DnD experience says it should generally be the other way around).

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I think LD being far stronger than DC or Fury also plays a role.

[Ayseifn]

You are greatly mistating the cause of the exploit. A faster speed for running attacks is not the reason twitch works.


Adjusting attack animations is a much more difficult job than correcting networked ladder-grab. After all, if the developers had a good handle on millisecond-animation accuracy, they wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place.

PDK have a different animation for THF and I think other races do too, the PDK animation is 2 overheads, the uppercut one and then one baseball bat swing. Humans are overhead, uppercut, baseball bat swing right then baseball bat swing left IIRC.

When I play a THF PDK I doubt twitching adds much DPS if any, just do the first three animations and then use a cleave type ability to reset the attack chain. Haven't been able to twitch after the third animation either but maybe that's just me sucking, in any case the animations are obviously fixable if you just take a look at PDK.

[SealedInSong]

... offer discernible differences among the trees without filling them with silly clickies that do things Barbarians fundamentally don't do, and for crying out lout you make them feel barbaric and furious.

I like these ideas because they actually play with the raw materials of a barbarian:
DAMAGE
*they hit the hardest (in melee, possibly ranged if we get creative)
RAGE
*their rage makes them more formidable in combat, but sacrifice: spellcasting (including healing, which is generally most important), intelligent actions and skills; post-rage are fatigued (though not at higher levels)
SURVIVE
*they are not strategic survivors (paladins, fighters) but hardened survivors (rangers, barbarians) that can ignore (DR) or evade (uncanny dodge) damage

I'm grateful for the barb pass being done at all, but the *raw materials* of the barb don't feel at all augmented to me.
*they don't seem to hit at all harder than classes that already have many more capabilities (paladins, bards)
*their rage is pretty much solely a liability and hardly an advantage -- this is taking into account the spectrum of casual to powergamer aims, in my opinion, as they are all generally better off as other classes
*they are NOT more survivable in terms of DR or dodging, they were merely given a big goodie bag of healing amplification and hp

Here's what would get me to play my barbarians again (or TR previous barbarians back to barbarians):
*make their damage MEANINGFUL in light of the fact that their core rage skill prevents them from being truly self-sufficient except in the case of trivial content using barb enhancement T5 heals or challenging content and using consecration healing. Because self-sufficiency is at the heart of DDO's endgame whether we like it or not, this is an important trade off.
*buff rage to be a significant boost on a baseline level.
buff rage differently in each enhancement tree
*tone down some of this healing amplification/hit point madness and make a serious effort to have barb DR and damage avoidance be meaningful in all content. The DR portion is currently close to useless once you hit level 18 quests.

Lots of people have iterated the above, which I think might clue the devs into how frustrated the player base can sometimes feel (bard and paladin changes excluded, as they were great at revitalizing those classes).

Again revisiting the concept of improving core barb mechanics in each tree, what about things like:
*for each 1/- DR gained, frenzied berserkers gain some amount of PRR. Say, coreII is 2 PRR per 1/-, core IV is 4 PRR per 1/-, and capstone is 7 PRR per 1/-, meaning a net gain of 49 PRR for a capstone FB.
*have occult slayer offer the defensive roll (per rogue special) feat as an enhancement somewhere.
have occult slayer cores offer a 10s reduction to the cooldown of uncanny dodge, so a capped occult slayer can activate it every 120s rather than every 180s
*have ravagers have a % chance to inflict stat damage for ALL HITS while raging, rather than the utter joke cooldowns of mutilate and cruel cut. If mutilate and cruel cut must be kept, then either cut their cooldowns significantly OR change them to add extra types of stat damage, or better yes, DPS (in the form of vulnerability stacks or poison damage)

Again, I think it's wonderful that any attention is being given all the classes that need help, but barbs are currently more puzzling than fun. "I have a lot of health but almost no way to get it back. My greataxe doesn't seem to hit much harder than that lutist with his rapier, or that churchman with an orb and sword. My damage reduction is ten times smaller than this kobold's glancing blow."

[fmalfeas]

I like these ideas because they actually play with the raw materials of a barbarian:
DAMAGE
*they hit the hardest (in melee, possibly ranged if we get creative)
RAGE
*their rage makes them more formidable in combat, but sacrifice: spellcasting (including healing, which is generally most important), intelligent actions and skills; post-rage are fatigued (though not at higher levels)
SURVIVE
*they are not strategic survivors (paladins, fighters) but hardened survivors (rangers, barbarians) that can ignore (DR) or evade (uncanny dodge) damage

I'm grateful for the barb pass being done at all, but the *raw materials* of the barb don't feel at all augmented to me.
*they don't seem to hit at all harder than classes that already have many more capabilities (paladins, bards)
*their rage is pretty much solely a liability and hardly an advantage -- this is taking into account the spectrum of casual to powergamer aims, in my opinion, as they are all generally better off as other classes
*they are NOT more survivable in terms of DR or dodging, they were merely given a big goodie bag of healing amplification and hp

Here's what would get me to play my barbarians again (or TR previous barbarians back to barbarians):
*make their damage MEANINGFUL in light of the fact that their core rage skill prevents them from being truly self-sufficient except in the case of trivial content using barb enhancement T5 heals or challenging content and using consecration healing. Because self-sufficiency is at the heart of DDO's endgame whether we like it or not, this is an important trade off.
*buff rage to be a significant boost on a baseline level.
buff rage differently in each enhancement tree
*tone down some of this healing amplification/hit point madness and make a serious effort to have barb DR and damage avoidance be meaningful in all content. The DR portion is currently close to useless once you hit level 18 quests.

Lots of people have iterated the above, which I think might clue the devs into how frustrated the player base can sometimes feel (bard and paladin changes excluded, as they were great at revitalizing those classes).

Again revisiting the concept of improving core barb mechanics in each tree, what about things like:
*for each 1/- DR gained, frenzied berserkers gain some amount of PRR. Say, coreII is 2 PRR per 1/-, core IV is 4 PRR per 1/-, and capstone is 7 PRR per 1/-, meaning a net gain of 49 PRR for a capstone FB.
*have occult slayer offer the defensive roll (per rogue special) feat as an enhancement somewhere.
have occult slayer cores offer a 10s reduction to the cooldown of uncanny dodge, so a capped occult slayer can activate it every 120s rather than every 180s
*have ravagers have a % chance to inflict stat damage for ALL HITS while raging, rather than the utter joke cooldowns of mutilate and cruel cut. If mutilate and cruel cut must be kept, then either cut their cooldowns significantly OR change them to add extra types of stat damage, or better yes, DPS (in the form of vulnerability stacks or poison damage)

Again, I think it's wonderful that any attention is being given all the classes that need help, but barbs are currently more puzzling than fun. "I have a lot of health but almost no way to get it back. My greataxe doesn't seem to hit much harder than that lutist with his rapier, or that churchman with an orb and sword. My damage reduction is ten times smaller than this kobold's glancing blow."

Honestly, with those names, Mutilate and Cruel Cut could have better effects by far than some stat damage. Cruel Cut? How about a hamstring attack? Maybe +2w, and hamstring, possibly in a small arc like a cleave. Mutilate? I'm thinking it could be like a Limb-Chopper effect. That way, when the line is complete, hitting Cruel Cut isn't mostly a joke with a 30sec cooldown, it's your 'let's cripple these mobs so I can take them out easier' button. A swarm of mobs, even on EE, that suddenly loses 50% runspeed and attack speed has been put at a serious disadvantage, making that a valuable enhancement line.

[gwonbush]

There's also some bugs to deal with: Ravager's Pain Touch still has a 1 second cooldown on the damage, despite the cooldown being removed from the description. Not to mention Ravager's strength enhancement not actually giving any Strength.

Speaking of Strength enhancements, why does Ravager can strength when Frenzied Berserker cannot?

[Tesrali]

Why complain about DR? I have 160 Prr, 1500 hit points, and a silver that hits me for 1k. I do not die. What IS shameful is the pally standing next to me doing the same dps, with saves in the 60s, and full casting ability!

Please focus on the rage buff guys. Barbarians are very survivable.

[Monkey-Boy]

BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR

BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR

I agree.

Though I'm not quite sure that paladin is doing the same damage.

[MeliCat]

Why complain about DR? I have 160 Prr, 1500 hit points, and a silver that hits me for 1k. I do not die. What IS shameful is the pally standing next to me doing the same dps, with saves in the 60s, and full casting ability!

Please focus on the rage buff guys. Barbarians are very survivable.

ok with zero effort my SF is hitting for 650 so I can see the 1k thing. And I'm guessing you're doing the heavy armor thing. So you need the casting ability for which exactly? Cocoon?

In recent months I'm kind of used to playing characters that range dps and jump out of the way lately - so casters with no evasion but reasonable saves. This up close and personal BS with not enough ability to just *run* to reposition myself so as to not take as much damage due to the SF slow effect is really really annoying. I don't want to sidetrack the thread into something that devs seem to have no interest in changing though. I was used to using the sprint boost to get over that slowing effect years ago but sprint boost getting to the beginnings of a useful level is 3 points.

That and oh I'm broke. Those SF pots are expensive... I forget when I don't play a char that is so dependent on them usually.

[Tesrali]

Tes var nar lookin fer mer casteen bility. Mer fer rage death rage death kill kill kill blood blood bar bar bar bar bar bar abr bar barbie barn bark bar.

...using a barbarian rage grants the user +1 critical threat range, given the opportunity cost of rage. No spells has always put it in an awkward place behind other classes. This has always justified them being top dps.

They aren't and this change would see Barbarians become a kingly form of damage.

...

Every raging barb should feel powerful, but not every barb does, we're really missing this.

[Connman]

well they have the caster crit chance increases,
they have monk,rog sneak attack increases,
fighter has something like it in kensai.

how about just straight weapon damage, that is what is missing from all the barb trees, just straight damage, like +1W at each level. Or something like that, just raw damage, I think that is what is really needed. I would rather drink the blood of my enemies anyway, pots just don't cut it...

[MeliCat]

Tes var nar lookin fer mer casteen bility. Mer fer rage death rage death kill kill kill blood blood bar bar bar bar bar bar abr bar barbie barn bark bar.

And it's already been discussed and if you read through Sev's response that seemed to be the only point at which there is going to be a definite change.

From this response I figure you're not going to answer my question and you are somewhat dismissive that I asked at all. My apologies.

[Skeen]

Why complain about DR? I have 160 Prr, 1500 hit points, and a silver that hits me for 1k. I do not die. What IS shameful is the pally standing next to me doing the same dps, with saves in the 60s, and full casting ability!

Please focus on the rage buff guys. Barbarians are very survivable.

No but really, lets focus on your 160 PRR and 1500HP. How are you getting this? Specifically please list each item/enhancement/PLF/tomes.

[Tesrali]

And it's already been discussed and if you read through Sev's response that seemed to be the only point at which there is going to be a definite change.

From this response I figure you're not going to answer my question and you are somewhat dismissive that I asked at all. My apologies.

Was trying to keep is light with the bar-speak. I don't want barbarians to be able to cast. I think you misunderstood me? People are consensing that a direct increase to rage damage would buff Ocult Slayer and Ravager appropriately and put a frenzied brobarian ahead of the paladiddles.

[MeliCat]

Was trying to keep is light with the bar-speak. I don't want barbarians to be able to cast. I think you misunderstood me? People are consensing that a direct increase to rage damage would buff Ocult Slayer and Ravager appropriately and put a frenzied brobarian ahead of the paladiddles.

I don't think I was clear enough - my concern is mechanisms of healing. I am still quite green at barbarians not having played one for some years now until recently. Is your only source of healing SF pots? You find this sufficient due to sufficient hp and PRR then? I haven't got the gear (or build) yet to get those levels of PRR so I'm finding EE a bit expensive and the slow down effect just too much.

Haven't played a paladin for ages so I have no opinion on them. It's more a concern that cocoon is not an option.