Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[Zoda]

It might not be a nerf though. If they buff rage and all barbs in other ways, but reduce a single capstone, all barbs without that capstone are buffed, and barbs with that capstone may still end up buffed or neutral depending on how much they reduce the capstone and how much barbs are buffed in other ways. The overall game play 1-28 may end up being more enjoyable for all builds, and allow better build balance.

They said they were making changes based on internal tests, which means they are testing without exploiting bugs. Golem's heart is also a relatively minor, isolated bug, limited to a few abilities and level 28 characters with a rare augment. Play a druid or thrower if you want to see major bugs. Now which mule has that augment? Kidding I jest.

I had a blast leveling as pure barb during heroic levels, and I had neither Storm's Eye nor Golem's Heart, I was just a ravager. I don't know how nerfing one ability will yield more fun for ppl who are not even using it (I mean I have a pretty good idea how it'd make them happy, but to address those ppl I'd call a forum ban on myself). You are talking like there is only one viable barb build around, which is simply not the case.

Compared to what is the Golem's Heart bug minor? Ladders? Major lag in raids? Wolf nonsense? That interaction puts supreme cleave easily on the level of tier 6 ED abilities and above. Just compare it to Strike Down - a pretty decent tier 6 that adds 500 damage to your cleave with 12 seconds cooldown, while Supreme Cleave adds ~300 AND ~200 healing with 3 seconds cooldown and the investment required is abysmall. Just because they are incapable of fixing potentially more gamechanging bugs for several updates (shapshifting), this one shouldn't be diminished into a minor one.

Without Storm's Eye barb dps is simply no competition for paladin and that's the only aspect where the class could compete paladins, and that'd leave no bug free competition for them at all. Again (and if devs had any respect left for the game's source material, we wouldn't even have to discuss such things). Last time that happened, I tred into paladin then quit for 3 month to play a better game, until I seen a reason to came back in barb.

[Qhualor]

so ran some epics tonight on my 18 barb 2 PDK fighter TWF. got my ass handed to me in the arena fight in EE Von 1 with a full group at level 20. Blood Strength is healing me for 29 and 63 on kill. that was awesome in heroics, but with over 1k hp raged and considering how hard EE mobs hit for, it is not enough. I have lesser SF pots that heal for 264 hp, but the greater ones heal for 660. the greater ones would be enough to stay alive, but than I have to deal with the crippling. I am even using an epic Chaosblade healing me for 5 hp per hit. SF pots still only stack in 10s and are very expensive, especially for a character that most likely will have a low haggle.

ill say it again, barbs need a better and reliable source of pot healing. make it ML 20 for all I care, but it needs to heal me, for example, for 400-500. it really sucks that the best source of healing are these penalty pots while no other class has to deal with side affects to self heal. barbarian dps is not obviously better or higher or whatever you want to call it than SWF and paladins and these pots also reduce your stats and saves by a lot. will saves are already a barbs Achilles heal, but to reduce it more even with some decent investment may as well not even exist. I will not play a barbarian using Consecrated Ground or not rage to use Cocoon. that is not a barb to me and that's not how I want play a barb. its too far out of the theme.

i get that adding heal amp in the trees and giving melee power and T5 self healing did a lot for a barb to be self sufficient, but that's fine in heroics and probably some EH. i get adding more con and temporary hp to absorb some of the damage that is just like in PnP. i don't know how to develop a vendorable potion for 400-500 at ML 20 that wont be too desirable for sp classes. there has to be something thematically or not too far outside the box OP. i would even be fine with removing the heal amp from the capstone by adding a big PRR number to mitigate the damage enough that would require less pot chugging spam. does it really make sense for a barb to gravitate to an sp bar to play the class so they can actually be self sufficient without being so crippled?

[Xaxx]

Our current thinking for Barbarian updates:

* Storm's Eye activated stacking bonuses simply start at 25 stacks and fade away over time, functioning somewhat similarly to Divine Crusader's core capstone, Zeal of the Righteous. We'd examine the cooldown of the stacks and the ability itself, with this updated functionality.

So your going to take the amount of barb clickies and dont do anything about that, as has been requested by alot of people... but your going to take the one clicky that you dont have to hit all the dang time.... and make barb players hit it all the time...... ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm NO

[Zoda]

You guys were in such a hurry to implement this nerf to storm's eye that you forgot to make the charges count down. Only appears to be a display error though, so worry not.

[Bladebolt]

I know that probably there is no point in suggesting anything.
As it was proven to me by the input that was given before the update, devs listen to nobody, they just want confirmation from somebody so they can move on with the ideas they already have.

I am still and always playing my Barb, I don't want to sound ungrateful for the changes, I really enjoy the new stuff.
The fact that Zod and Cetus and all these great players can create great havoc playing their Completionist Barbarians does not translate to my mind that the class and the DPS needs any kind of nerfing.

For me the issues, what the Barbarians need are these:

-More Versality : By this I mean that I would like to be able to combine more useful stuff from the different trees and invest AP in more useful combinations. More variety for Barbarian builds, which for me is more fun.
-More DPS ( as 90% of the people in all the Barbarian threads keep saying
I am not going to start commenting on the useless enhancements that exist on all trees although I would really love too.

In my opinion (always) there is a simple way to deal with the situation here.
(The numbers I use are probably wrong and untested but I think the idea will become quite clear)



FB: Remove any 2 of the tier 4 enhancements. (Crazy strike, Exhausting blow, Wade in... all useless)
Take 1 rank of Focused Wrath and place it on tier 4 with a 20 progression, 2AP
Leave the other Rank at tier 5
Move Raging Blows to tier 4, 20 progression 2 AP.
Make Accelerated Metabolism work in analogy with your Barb level. "While barbarian raging, you heal 2 x Half your Barbarian level hit points every 4 seconds. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power"

Ravager: Remove Laughter and Hit back (nice flavor but useless).
Split Blood Strength in 2 Ranks. 1 Rank at tier 4, 20 progression 2 AP.
Blood strength tier 4: "Each time you land a hit there is a 20% chance you heal positive damage equal to HALF your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are healed for 10 hit points."
This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.
Blood strength tier 5: As it is.
Do the same with critical range, break it in 2 ranks, one tier 4 and 1 tier 5.

Occult slayer: Change Vampiric bond to "At Weapon Bond 100+, your weapon provides you 20 temporary hit points when you damage an enemy. These Temporary hit Points scales with 200% Melee Power. This can trigger
at most once every 9/6/3 seconds.
And change one spirit to : "Expend 50 Weapon Bond. Per bond expended you heal for 4 positive energy. This healing scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cool down: [120/60/15] seconds)" (Keep the passive good
stuff as it is).


All trees can have access to decent self healing and decent DPS.
More builds on the horizon!
If more DPS is needed it should be added in the rage mechanism

Well I know this will never happen but I had to take it off my chest.

Thank you

[lyrecono]

Sigh.....

so the barb stuff has passed and non of it's major issues have been taken care of;

frenzy&death frenzy are still 1 min clickies that are annoying to keep track of.
pathetic fluff and filler in the FB tree
Heal amp issues, running around with 1500 hp unraged a sf pot hits me for 750 ish, no problem there you say? no, i have to spend so much points in fb and ravager in order to get enough Heal Amp and a smidgen of dps that i barely have points left for racial tree's but when i look at what i got out of it is 80% filler in order to gain the decent ones.
Compaired to the far superior Bard Swashbuckler enh i seem to gain far more useful combat related enhancements in order to get the strong enhancements.

Swashbuckling on it's own is already so much more powerfull then frenzy and unlike frenzy, it stays on all the time!!!

I feel pigeon holed into the human race as a FB
Dwarfs&Drow are ok-ish for SR builds, though in a party(and a full plate) most of the spell damage can easily be negated.
Half orcs cost too many points to be worth it
(H)elfs are rubbish
Warforged have heal issues
Bladeforged have a the added isue of the first level being pali
Gnomes still haven't been released
halflings are use impaired, their mark cost a feat and enhancements.
Shardar kai already have problems and their enh blow, only taken by people who want to look like an emo clown
Morning lord has a few good points with divine might and Ameliorating Strike, but they do take a lot of points out of a point starved class.

so the master race is human, the extra feat(for cleave early on), skillpoint and early cheap access to the damage boost(can be used at the same time as the melee power boost) and lack of decent enhancements higher up makes them far superior race for barbarian.

So please dev's, take a look at this before you move on

[XxJFGxX]

Sigh.....

so the barb stuff has passed and non of it's major issues have been taken care of;

frenzy&death frenzy are still 1 min clickies that are annoying to keep track of.
pathetic fluff and filler in the FB tree
Heal amp issues, running around with 1500 hp unraged a sf pot hits me for 750 ish, no problem there you say? no, i have to spend so much points in fb and ravager in order to get enough Heal Amp and a smidgen of dps that i barely have points left for racial tree's but when i look at what i got out of it is 80% filler in order to gain the decent ones.
Compaired to the far superior Bard Swashbuckler enh i seem to gain far more useful combat related enhancements in order to get the strong enhancements.

Swashbuckling on it's own is already so much more powerfull then frenzy and unlike frenzy, it stays on all the time!!!

I feel pigeon holed into the human race as a FB
Dwarfs&Drow are ok-ish for SR builds, though in a party(and a full plate) most of the spell damage can easily be negated.
Half orcs cost too many points to be worth it
(H)elfs are rubbish
Warforged have heal issues
Bladeforged have a the added isue of the first level being pali
Gnomes still haven't been released
halflings are use impaired, their mark cost a feat and enhancements.
Shardar kai already have problems and their enh blow, only taken by people who want to look like an emo clown
Morning lord has a few good points with divine might and Ameliorating Strike, but they do take a lot of points out of a point starved class.

so the master race is human, the extra feat(for cleave early on), skillpoint and early cheap access to the damage boost(can be used at the same time as the melee power boost) and lack of decent enhancements higher up makes them far superior race for barbarian.

So please dev's, take a look at this before you move on

And also take a look at the feat Improved Shield Bash, because with that feat and while under adrenaline anybody can just shield bash mobs and do about 20k and the adrenaline won't go away. A bit broken if you ask me.

[XxJFGxX]

Upon looking at the Barbarian enhancements most notably the Ravager tree, that the Ravager tree is terrible. The only things from the Ravager tree that are actually worth taking are Blood Strength and Critical Rage. I also noticed that compared to FB and OS that Ravager doesn't have a critical damage multiplier whatsoever as well as having to passive bonus to melee power, PRR or MRR in the cores. Now with Occult Slayer having MRR and Frenzied Berserker having melee power as well as having PRR, Ravager doesn't get anything. The Ravager tree needs a near complete overhaul to make it worth taking. Here are my proposed changes.

CORE ABILITES:

Furious Rage: When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for six seconds.
Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and +1% damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.

Pain Touch: Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Passive: +10 Healing Amplification and +5 PRR

Demoralizing Success: Passive: You gain +30 hit points and +10 healing amplification, +10 melee power. When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 10 + Intimidate Will Saving Throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw.

Pain Touch: Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 3d6 extra damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Passive: You gain +60 hitpoints and +20 healing amplification and +10 PRR

Subsiding Fury: When you use Barbarian Rage, you gain 10 melee power for 20 seconds. Passive: You gain +100 hitpoints and +20 healing amplification

Visage of Terror: Terrorize up to six enemies, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs 10 + Constitution/Strength modifier (which ever is higher) + barbarian level. Enemies who make their saving throw are paralyzed with Fear for six seconds instead. Doesn't affect bosses. (Cost 150 HP. Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Passive:
+10 PRR
+4 Constitution
+150 hitpoints
+40 healing amplification



TIER ONE:

Ritual Scarring: +[1/2/3] Intimidate, Haggle. +[2%/4%/6%] Physical Resistance.

Hate: Melee Attack: Deals +(1/1.5/2)[W] damage and generate +(25%/50%/75%) extra threat for 15 seconds. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Do You Like Pain?: When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10/15/25 AC.

Barbarian Power Attack: Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage.

Hardy Rage: +[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.



TIER TWO:

Fear me!: When you intimidate, affected enemies are Despaired on a failed DC 10 half Barbarian level + Intimidate will saving throw for 6 seconds. Enemies who make the save are Shaken for 6 seconds.

Mutilate: Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 2d6/4d6/6d6 Bane damage. The bane damage scales with 200% Melee Power

I Like Pain: When you are hit: Small chance to gain 50/100/150 Temporary HP. For every epic level you possess you gain an extra 25 temporary HP.

Cruel Cut: Melee Attack for +[2/2.5/3]w and deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage as long as you damage your target. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Action Boost: Damage Power: Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30] Action Boost bonus to Weapon Damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)


TIER THREE:

Aura of Fear: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength and Charisma. Enemies also take -5 melee damage, ranged damage, spell power on a failed DC Will Half Barbarian Level + Intimidate. Every epic level you possess increases by an additional -5.

Rank 2: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength, Charisma, Dexterity and Wisdom.
Rank 3: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to all ability scores.

Slaughter: Melee Attack: Deals +(5/7.5/10)[W] damage. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Festering Wound: Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 6-seconds stacks of 2d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds (Scales with 200% melee power) and that monster's positive energy healing is reduced by 50% for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.

Constitution +1 or Strength +1: Choose one


TIER FOUR:

Laughter: When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain +5% to double strike. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy , you gain an extra +5% to double strike (for a total of 10%) and gain 10 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.

I Hit Back!: When you are hit: 30% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 bane damage to attacker. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

Dismember: Cruel Cut increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds and deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 bane damage. On a critical hit deals an extra 6d6/6d8/6d10 bane damage. This bane damages scales with 200% Melee Power. Cruel Cut additionally slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed.

Constitution +1 or Strength +1: Choose one


TIER FIVE:

Blood Strength: Each time you land a hit there is a 12% chance you heal positive damage equal to your Barbarian level. Each time you kill an opponent you are healed for 50 hit points. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power. While under Barbarian Rage, when you kill an enemy you gain Rage bonus 10% to weapon damage and melee attack speed for 12 seconds. Passive: +5 PRR

Bully: You deal +[10/20]% damage to helpless enemies. (Costs 1 AP per upgrade and doesn't require I Hit Back)

Rising Fury: While under Barbarian Rage, 10% chance while attacking enemies to gain one stack of Furious Rage and increases the amount of Furious Rage you can obtain from 6 stacks to 15.. (Requires 12 levels of Barbarian)

Critical Rage: (2AP)Increases your critical threat range by 1 when raging.
(2AP)Increases your critical threat range by an additional 1 and increases your critical damage multiplier by 1 on a roll of a 19 or 20 while raging.


I personally don't expect people to actually read and make comments on this especially the devs but I felt that I had to get this off of my chest.

[HatsuharuZ]

My issue with Ravager is this: How many ways can a pure barbarian take advantage of the debuffs in this tree? Not many. It has various ways of debuffing enemies, but the only ability in this tree that makes use of them in this tree is the capstone.

[XxJFGxX]

My issue with Ravager is this: How many ways can a pure barbarian take advantage of the debuffs in this tree? Not many. It has various ways of debuffing enemies, but the only ability in this tree that makes use of them in this tree is the capstone.

I agree that the only ability that makes use of the saving throw debuffs is only the capstone. But the only way to get a decent DC on it would be a con based toon. And also costs 1 rage. Also you have to think is it worth spending AP into Aura of Fear or Fear Me when the capstone is the only thing that makes use of it even a little bit?

Aura of Fear: -2 to all ability scores to surrounding mobs.

Fear Me: Surrounding enemies when intimidate is used -2 to saving throws for 6 seconds.

Also is the Crushing Despair from Demoralizing Success core the same as the ACTUAL spell in terms of functionality?

Crushing Despair: An invisible sphere of despair causes great sadness in the subjects. Each affected creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. A successful Will save negates this effect.

In addition all targets within the area of effect now suffer a -5 will for 15 seconds regardless of whether a target makes their saving throw.

If you have any feedback on this would be great.

[lyrecono]

i'm deeply sorry for beating this dead horse but.....

@Devs? when are you coming back to this and finish the job? barbarians are still to far behind on monchkers, paladins and bards
Since the sole purpose of a barb is to do melee damage they fail at their only job.
They fall far behind due to their lack of attack speed and worthless enhancements filling up the tree's
Would you be so kind as to come of your collective b-hinds and start fixing this?

[Bladebolt]

I don't know if anyone else tried the change about the medium armors.
It is still pointless.
After the test I did with my character the Xtra damage you take is not worth the trade for 10% more melee power. You need more to make the medium armor appealing.
anyone else has an opinion about this?

But most important:

i'm deeply sorry for beating this dead horse but.....

@Devs? when are you coming back to this and finish the job? barbarians are still to far behind on monchkers, paladins and bards
Since the sole purpose of a barb is to do melee damage they fail at their only job.
They fall far behind due to their lack of attack speed and worthless enhancements filling up the tree's
Would you be so kind as to come of your collective b-hinds and start fixing this?

What the man said.....

[Qhualor]

I don't know if anyone else tried the change about the medium armors.
It is still pointless.
After the test I did with my character the Xtra damage you take is not worth the trade for 10% more melee power. You need more to make the medium armor appealing.
anyone else has an opinion about this?

But most important:




What the man said.....

well, without effort and wearing medium armor plus I twisted Ephemeral Evolution from Primal Avatar by level 28 as a 18 dps barb 2 PDK I was sitting at about 91 PRR plus as much as +15 from the twist. that's not including any sheltering items. I did just fine. cant remember what my MRR was but I know it was around 60ish in OS last life and 50ish in Ravager the life before. on my 3rd PDK barb life and at 16 as a FB im sitting at 71 PRR and 30 MRR. all of this is also while raged.

[lyrecono]

any word yet?

[XxJFGxX]

I don't know if anyone else tried the change about the medium armors.
It is still pointless.
After the test I did with my character the Xtra damage you take is not worth the trade for 10% more melee power. You need more to make the medium armor appealing.
anyone else has an opinion about this?

The extra 10 PRR while wearing medium armor is a bad joke for heavy armor still out shines it so much it's not even a contest. Instead of adding a little bit of PRR to medium armor for barbs, why not add extra dodge to it? Such as:

Barbarian Armored Agility: While wearing medium armor and Barb raged, increases your max dex bonus for medium armor by +10, gain 10% dodge, an extra 10% to movement speed and melee attack speed (these bonuses stack with all modifiers).

Also have the uncanny dodge enhancements through the OS tree to also increase max dex bonus as well as dodge.


I believe this change will give barbs an alternative to defense then either multi classing with fighter for the heavy armor proficiency or taking the actual feat itself.

[Bladebolt]

The extra 10 PRR while wearing medium armor is a bad joke for heavy armor still out shines it so much it's not even a contest. Instead of adding a little bit of PRR to medium armor for barbs, why not add extra dodge to it? Such as:

Barbarian Armored Agility: While wearing medium armor and Barb raged, increases your max dex bonus for medium armor by +10, gain 10% dodge, an extra 10% to movement speed and melee attack speed (these bonuses stack with all modifiers).

Also have the uncanny dodge enhancements through the OS tree to also increase max dex bonus as well as dodge.


I believe this change will give barbs an alternative to defense then either multi classing with fighter for the heavy armor proficiency or taking the actual feat itself.

Up to now this is my opinion too.
The question is not if you can do OK with medium armor but which is the best choice.
I tried to run some High road quests on EE. I was mostly ravager, for the healing, with FB epic destiny and LD twists.
With heavy armor and being a little careful I did good. Not even close to record time but I made it.
With medium armor on.... not even close to finishing the quests.

This looks like a great idea to me

Barbarian Armored Agility: While wearing medium armor and Barb raged, increases your max dex bonus for medium armor by +10, gain 10% dodge, an extra 10% to movement speed and melee attack speed Give something like 7%? (these bonuses stack with all modifiers), but I think the devs feel satisfied with their work and I don't think they will be willing to spend more time on the barbarians any time soon.

[Darkrunn]

And all of this is EXACTLY why DDO has been slowly dying.
Devs ask for input and then blatantly ignore it. They see all of the complaints about bugs, useless enhancements, useless hirelings, and decide to make changes that are either not needed or are poorly conceived.
I have a lvl 21 barb that does great on Heroic and can even do pretty well on EH but the second I step into an EE quest, I get smashed. It's a first life toon without any ED (I don't have access to them right now), but I still feel significantly underpowered.
I would be okay with the fact that I'll never have as much AC and PRR as a Pally or fighter if I could at least outpace them in melee.

[Qhualor]

It's a first life toon without any ED (I don't have access to them right now), but I still feel significantly underpowered.

this is your biggest problem, not the class. epics are balanced around EDs.

[XxJFGxX]

Up to now this is my opinion too.
The question is not if you can do OK with medium armor but which is the best choice.
I tried to run some High road quests on EE. I was mostly ravager, for the healing, with FB epic destiny and LD twists.
With heavy armor and being a little careful I did good. Not even close to record time but I made it.
With medium armor on.... not even close to finishing the quests.

This looks like a great idea to me

Barbarian Armored Agility: While wearing medium armor and Barb raged, increases your max dex bonus for medium armor by +10, gain 10% dodge, an extra 10% to movement speed and melee attack speed Give something like 7%? (these bonuses stack with all modifiers), but I think the devs feel satisfied with their work and I don't think they will be willing to spend more time on the barbarians any time soon.

No I say leave it as 10% for the melee attack speed bonus. I believe that the Ravager tree needs a near re-overhaul. I've already listed my proposed changes if people would be so kind to submit feedback on it. Thank you.

[XxJFGxX]

And all of this is EXACTLY why DDO has been slowly dying.
Devs ask for input and then blatantly ignore it. They see all of the complaints about bugs, useless enhancements, useless hirelings, and decide to make changes that are either not needed or are poorly conceived.
I have a lvl 21 barb that does great on Heroic and can even do pretty well on EH but the second I step into an EE quest, I get smashed. It's a first life toon without any ED (I don't have access to them right now), but I still feel significantly underpowered.
I would be okay with the fact that I'll never have as much AC and PRR as a Pally or fighter if I could at least outpace them in melee.

Amen. I couldn't of said it better myself. This game is dying and either the devs are completely clueless about the reasons behind it (which is clear as day) or they just don't care. Like Darkrunn said, We gave them overwhelming feedback about the bugs, useless enhancements, useless hirelings, etc and we got ignored. By the way, still waiting on the FvS PrEs of Beacon of Hope and Divine Avenger that they promised us.