Barbarians - The Follow Up Thread

[lyrecono]

the balance would be to decrease paladin overall dps against general mobs and only be excellent against evil, undead and chaotics. im not saying a complete nerf or have paladins go back to subpar dps, but paladins should have high saves and really good self healing.

i cant really speak about bards having never played one, but it seems to me SWF gave them a huge dps boost. they already had good self healing, party buffs and CC.

the only major problem ive had on a barb with will saves have been low level content. yeah sure i get held in EE sometimes, but ive had the same problem playing rogues, fighters, and on occasion monk and paladin. whats been missing from the game since the enhancement revamp and introduction to EDs is the tradeoffs. power creep and multi classing has made it so most classes can have their typical weakness corked. every class i play always has the best at level i can get wisdom and resistance item plus they all have +5 tomes. i don't expect to be able to make every save no matter how much investment i put in, but i do make most saves. you can also take epic will saves if you are having too much of a problem.

again, this is exactly the point, bard and paly are classes that have it all, fast dps, self healing (without sf penalty), survive everything, good skill selection etc, the barb had 1 thing going for him, heavy damage output, that is gone and needs to return.

As for the weakness bit, were fighting inf spellpoint casters without cooldown, a failed save is the difference between ridicule and comming allong, it's only natural people plug the holles in their build, it's called "character development"

[Qhualor]

again, this is exactly the point, bard and paly are classes that have it all, fast dps, self healing (without sf penalty), survive everything, good skill selection etc, the barb had 1 thing going for him, heavy damage output, that is gone and needs to return.

As for the weakness bit, were fighting inf spellpoint casters without cooldown, a failed save is the difference between ridicule and comming allong, it's only natural people plug the holles in their build, it's called "character development"

And again I'm trying to say that adding more power creep to fill a classes typical weakness is the wrong way to go. A proper way to balance classes is to bring back tradeoffs and stop "fixing" a class weakness. The devs should go back and balance better what is so OP about paladin and bard. They also need to put better restrictions on multi classing and either raising low hanging fruit higher in trees or add more cost.

Failing saves is part of the game and there are numerous things available to boost those weak saves. Its up to you to take advantage of whats available which may require a tradeoff somewhere else. I think the confusion you are having going by the pic is that EE should be better balanced solo. In group play dealing with infinite sp casters and failing saves isn't usually a huge issue if you are grouped with some team players.

[lyrecono]

And again I'm trying to say that adding more power creep to fill a classes typical weakness is the wrong way to go. A proper way to balance classes is to bring back tradeoffs and stop "fixing" a class weakness. The devs should go back and balance better what is so OP about paladin and bard. They also need to put better restrictions on multi classing and either raising low hanging fruit higher in trees or add more cost.

Failing saves is part of the game and there are numerous things available to boost those weak saves. Its up to you to take advantage of whats available which may require a tradeoff somewhere else. I think the confusion you are having going by the pic is that EE should be better balanced solo. In group play dealing with infinite sp casters and failing saves isn't usually a huge issue if you are grouped with some team players.

the biggest problem of the barb is it's lack of dps, so whats your proposal?
remove holy sword, swashbuckling and swf? that would ballance things back as they should be. atleast between the melee's
Then again that would cause a shift to ranged builds again because people want to take down trash, bosses and champions fast

[Qhualor]

the biggest problem of the barb is it's lack of dps, so whats your proposal?
remove holy sword, swashbuckling and swf? that would ballance things back as they should be. atleast between the melee's
Then again that would cause a shift to ranged builds again because people want to take down trash, bosses and champions fast

if you have followed any of the barb posts i have made, i have always said barb dps is fine. i even told Cetus my pure barb in FOTW has higher dps than the one he posted, but i was unable to prove it on Lama due to lack of character transfer knowledge. i just thought certain enhancements needed to be better and scale better into epics. i also said many times that barb dps needed to be the clear cut winner over paladin and bards. if its not than there wont be much reason beyond personal preference to play a barb when paladins and bards have high dps, saves and heals with much less cost investment.

Holy Sword doesn't need to be removed, changed or nerfed down anymore. paladins need to somehow do less dps against non chaotic, evil and undead mobs.

having never played a bard or a build with SWF, i don't know what a proper balance would be. its possible that maybe SWF needs to be toned down a little because it seems to be not on the same level as the other fighting lines. im even seeing non bard builds with SWF taking down mobs faster than a 2WF, 2HF and non burst ranged.

[lyrecono]

if you have followed any of the barb posts i have made, i have always said barb dps is fine. i even told Cetus my pure barb in FOTW has higher dps than the one he posted, but i was unable to prove it on Lama due to lack of character transfer knowledge. i just thought certain enhancements needed to be better and scale better into epics. i also said many times that barb dps needed to be the clear cut winner over paladin and bards. if its not than there wont be much reason beyond personal preference to play a barb when paladins and bards have high dps, saves and heals with much less cost investment.

Holy Sword doesn't need to be removed, changed or nerfed down anymore. paladins need to somehow do less dps against non chaotic, evil and undead mobs.

having never played a bard or a build with SWF, i don't know what a proper balance would be. its possible that maybe SWF needs to be toned down a little because it seems to be not on the same level as the other fighting lines. im even seeing non bard builds with SWF taking down mobs faster than a 2WF, 2HF and non burst ranged.

yes, i have folowed and posted in said thread, i ignored your posts their due to the troll/flaming going on there.
i personaly hate fotw builds, it relies to much on a limited number of damage spikes, i prefer LD for more consistant dps or Cruisader for consistant dps and self healing.
Edit: also, ED shouldn't matter when discussing class enh.
if barbs are to be clear cut winners in dps (beside undead/demons/devils etc) then either the barb needs a boost or the swashbuckler/wolf/pali builds need a nerf because they are all better dps.
The logical consequence for nerfing them is a lfm for ranged builds again, plain and simple, better to buff the barb so ballance can be restored.

[Qhualor]

yes, i have folowed and posted in said thread, i ignored your posts their due to the troll/flaming going on there.
i personaly hate fotw builds, it relies to much on a limited number of damage spikes, i prefer LD for more consistant dps or Cruisader for consistant dps and self healing.
Edit: also, ED shouldn't matter when discussing class enh.
if barbs are to be clear cut winners in dps (beside undead/demons/devils etc) then either the barb needs a boost or the swashbuckler/wolf/pali builds need a nerf because they are all better dps.
The logical consequence for nerfing them is a lfm for ranged builds again, plain and simple, better to buff the barb so ballance can be restored.

im saying the exact same things here as i did in that other thread.

Blitz isn't an epic moment. its sustainable dps because you are able to keep it going through the entire quest. if it was an actual moment like the other ones, it would be just as sustainable.

Divine Crusader has some decent dps abilities, but doesn't compliment a barb. the biggest draw to it is Consecrated Ground and precisely what i am referring to making something like low hanging fruit cost more or raise up in the trees.

i only need 1.1 mil xp to cap my current TR than im off doing 6x barb lives as a PDK for 2 of my other TRs. ill be able to see how things really are since Lama. from what im hearing though, some of the enhancements still were not translating very well into epics like stat damage, Visage of Terror is better but not good enough and some of the other enhancements are bugged. adding melee power and W's helped but i don't think it was exactly what the enhancements needed. the biggest problem i had before i started doing past lives on my barbs was having 1 1/2 bars of enhancement clickies. i felt it was just as annoying, but worse trying to utilize all those clickies and knowing what works best against certain mobs than playing a monk.

there would be no rise to ranged builds again by balancing out paladins and SWF. there was a rise to ranged builds because

1. by the time epic GH came out it was much tougher for a front line melee to go toe to toe with mobs with the lack of defense and healers were quickly dwindling from parties. it was safer and easier to play a ranged build avoiding the damage by kiting and killing from afar.

2. 10k stars/manyshot/adrenaline the rise of Monkchers

3. evasion was considered king until new things like PRR and MRR were introduced. now heavy armor is arguably just as good if not better.

[Severlin]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Ravager
~ Pain Touch should not have a cooldown. We will look into this bug.
~ Mutilate bane damage added to Hate increased to +2d6/4d6/6d6
~ Laughter now adds 10 Melee Power when Slaughter hits (as opposed to only when it crits)

Frenzied Berserker
~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Occult Slayer
~ Fix Mind Over Magic bug when Constitution changes.
~ One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

Sev~

[Scrabbler]

~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.
~ One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

What about giving those self-healing effects an amount of scaling with class level (or character level), like Ravager's Blood Strength does? That would make it easier for the ability to be useful in epic while not overpowered in heroic.

Traditional healing sources like Cleric spells scale with level too, so they don't give the same amount at level 12 through 28.

[axel15810]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Sev~

Good start but I don't think that's enough. Barbarians need a more compelling reason than 10 MP to want to stay raged and give up their rejuvenation cocoons. And definitely a better reason than 10 PRR to go medium armor - wouldn't wearing heavy armor give you more than 10 PRR over medium in the first place? And it would give you more MRR to boot. And you wouldn't have to stay raged to get the bonus.

How about also adding a +1 Critical Multiplier when raged and wearing medium armor as part of the level 17 tireless rage barb feat?

Now that would make me want to stay raged. Barb players want to see big crit numbers. I don't think this would be OP in the slightest considering how crippling rage penalties are. Not to mention the medium armor requirement would cost them PRR, MRR and 30/60 DR since they couldn't wear shadow dragon heavy plate with guardian upgrade.

[HatsuharuZ]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Ravager
~ Pain Touch should not have a cooldown. We will look into this bug.
~ Mutilate bane damage added to Hate increased to +2d6/4d6/6d6
~ Laughter now adds 10 Melee Power when Slaughter hits (as opposed to only when it crits)

Frenzied Berserker
~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Occult Slayer
~ Fix Mind Over Magic bug when Constitution changes.
~ One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

Sev~

Thanks for giving us an update!

Say, is there anything that I could do to change your mind about not doing anything to barbarian innate DR? I feel that currently, having merely 7 DR/- at level 20 is insufficient. If you could remove other sources of barbarian DR, then double the DR gained from barbarian class levels, it would be sufficient to make barb DR useful, but not overpowering.

[depositbox]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Ravager
~ Pain Touch should not have a cooldown. We will look into this bug.
~ Mutilate bane damage added to Hate increased to +2d6/4d6/6d6
~ Laughter now adds 10 Melee Power when Slaughter hits (as opposed to only when it crits)

Frenzied Berserker
~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Occult Slayer
~ Fix Mind Over Magic bug when Constitution changes.
~ One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

Sev~

Have you seen what barbs are doing over in the youtube video thread? do they need more power or do the rest of the bell curves asking for more here need better skills?

[ToastyFred]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Ravager
~ Pain Touch should not have a cooldown. We will look into this bug.
~ Mutilate bane damage added to Hate increased to +2d6/4d6/6d6
~ Laughter now adds 10 Melee Power when Slaughter hits (as opposed to only when it crits)

Frenzied Berserker
~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Occult Slayer
~ Fix Mind Over Magic bug when Constitution changes.
~ One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

Sev~

I like these changes, especially the Occult Slayer's.

[Fafnir]

wouldn't wearing heavy armor give you more than 10 PRR over medium in the first place? And it would give you more MRR to boot

What can compete with DR60/e on heavy shadowscale armor? That armor is completely over the top and makes anything but heavy a poor choice at 28.

[Thar]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Ravager
~ Pain Touch should not have a cooldown. We will look into this bug.
~ Mutilate bane damage added to Hate increased to +2d6/4d6/6d6
~ Laughter now adds 10 Melee Power when Slaughter hits (as opposed to only when it crits)

Frenzied Berserker
~ Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Occult Slayer
~ Fix Mind Over Magic bug when Constitution changes.
~ One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

Sev~

What about light armor/no armor barbarians? why wouldn't they get 10 prr too?

before you say evasion... evasion has been nerf'd by the armor changes and its more beneficial now to have armor and get the AC/PRR/MRR than to have a chance (rarely) to not take damage.

Are other classes getting buff's for other armor usage? Tempest rangers stuck with light armor can survive how...

[Thar]

What can compete with DR60/e on heavy shadowscale armor? That armor is completely over the top and makes anything but heavy a poor choice at 28.

nothing so all light armor/med armor wearers will move to that.

[Thar]

Thanks for giving us an update!

Say, is there anything that I could do to change your mind about not doing anything to barbarian innate DR? I feel that currently, having merely 7 DR/- at level 20 is insufficient. If you could remove other sources of barbarian DR, then double the DR gained from barbarian class levels, it would be sufficient to make barb DR useful, but not overpowering.

2nd the motion. 7 is useless when it doesn't stack and items give you better.

[pjstechie]

Here are the specific changes we are considering:

~ Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

Sev~

I like the direction of providing an incentive for medium armor but you will have to be more convincing if you want me to commit to wearing it.

in 3.5 barbs get to move faster in light/medium armor. That could be an option (i dont remember if they get that in DDO). thematically that could also extend to increased armor dex bonuses, dodge bonuses, or other such things.

perhaps some bonuses could apply to light or medium armor and some could only apply to medium armor (extra PRR for example)?

could also do some interesting enhancement things, maybe the 2 handed fighting ones grant a shield bonus while wearing medium armor? or maybe the occult slayer gets spell resistance, ravagers could get a guard effect, stuff like that, while in medium armor. I dont think bonuses need to be powerful to compete, but intrigue me with character building options.

[jaggyjag]

im saying the exact same things here as i did in that other thread.

You always do, again and again and again and.......

Resistance is futile, just sit back and let the Qhualalanche spill over you, death by hyperpost!

[bbqzor]

Greater Rage (the level 11 barbarian class feat) gains the following additional effects:
While raging your Melee Power increases by 10.
While raging if you are wearing medium armor your Physical Resist Rating increases by 10.

The 10 melee power is a good change. It helps barbarians (who have taken over half their levels in the class) with an incentive that helps late heroic and maintains usefulness into epic. The value is probably about right, as well, though I would have to use it on lam/live to see for sure. Its also well crafted in the sense its stops putting pressure so heavily on the barbarian enhancements and focuses on the class's core mechanic of simply improving rage.

The PRR in medium armor is insufficient. Heavy gives 15 more PRR over medium from armor type, and (1/3rd bab)+2 in proficiency. Actually taking the feat (at 20 bab) is worth 13-14 prr (depending on epic bab rounding) plus access to the MUCH superior heavy armor itemization, even after this change. I would also suggest that "while raging, the max dex bonus of medium armor is increased by 2" or 4 or something. This is necessary to ensure that the Barbarian Class Feature Uncanny Dodge is actually allowed to work fully. Barbarians get dodge bonuses, but medium armor is often too restricting to use them, or combine with a simple dodge item. This is why its often just better to forgo dodge, take heavy, and rely on mitigation. The idea here is to support medium armor in rage by helping to keep some of that much-needed mitigation (while not invalidating the feat as a choice or simply providing it "for free")... but part of it also needs to be to support the abilities the barbarian already has. Having rage increase the allowed dodge amount ("whirling frenzy" rage variant if you need a pnp reference, its even srd material) is something that has support elsewhere in dnd. I think combining increased support for fully utilizing the class's dodge bonuses, along with an incentive to make heavy armor less of a "jump" prr wise, will achieve the desired result: Medium armor being a halfway point between avoidance (dodge in light) and mitigation (prr in heavy), with supporting full utilization of the class's core mechanic (rage prr/dexcap while raging).

Ravager
Pain Touch should not have a cooldown. We will look into this bug.
Mutilate bane damage added to Hate increased to +2d6/4d6/6d6
Laughter now adds 10 Melee Power when Slaughter hits (as opposed to only when it crits)

Mutilate is still too weak. Suppose you are blitzing with 150 melee power. Thats 300 for mutilate scaling, or 18d6 every 15s. 1d6/s is very low dps... thats why Pain Touch is basically worthless when it has a cooldown, the one being removed in this same fix. Yea, Hate does some extra W too, sure, but even best case this thing is around 1d6/s, or 3-4 dps. For a cost of 6 AP, and the additional cost of extra threat (rarely do barbs want this, those that do rarely need an ability like this to make it work), thats simply a bad return. If 1 AP is not yielding at least 1 DPS, its not hard to question its value without other benefits... and this ability only has other downsides (threat), as (currently) the cha dmg is still essentially pointless. Maybe each rank of hate can lower the intimidate cooldown or something else to bring utility to this package... as just flat out adding more damage dice so low in the tree is probably not advisable. But as it stands, its just not a good buy, even with this boost. Even assuming full blitz 24/7 it cant keep up, thats a good indicator somethings not right.

Laughter changing to melee power on hit (and assuming fury still on crit) I think its exactly where it should be. Good utility, good burst dmg, good change.

IMPORTANT: No word on fixing the Ravager Capstone? Like the Occult Slayer one, occasionally it just "stops working". Like you hit it, it spends a rage, no effect happens. Only fix Ive found is hitting character select and back. The odds of having this happen increase with contiguous time logged in, so it may be related to the same "con-change" issue OS experiences, where after each rage fades you roll the dice on this ability persisting. Or maybe in a similar vein, when the number of rages changes (like if you shrine with a +rage item on like FB ToD Set) it strips. I dont know just guessing... but the problem is definitely real. I hope this can be fixed too.

RELATED: Can we get the capstone to work while moving etc? Right now it has one of those "stop and stand" animations which is easy to interrupt on a barbarian. It would benefit the playability of everyone if you could use this while moving, or while jumping, or whatever barbarians are likely to be doing. Not sure what that involves, exactly, but many abilities allow more freedom than this one, and this one certainly should allow some freedom... it requires a low defense class to be near a high volume of mobs. Stopping to stand still while stuff happens in that situation is bad times yo. Itd be a lot more playable if we could use it while running up or jumping at said mobs, so that it finishes "casting" upon arrival and fears things.

Frenzied Berserker
Accelerate Metabolism healing increased to 3d6. It also adds +20 Healing Amplification while raging.

Meh. Again, suppose full blitz so 150 melee power. The frenzy tree adds 30 amp. Suppose you get another 50 from the front half of other barbarian cores, 20 from ship buff, and 60 from something easy to get like pdk gloves. So thats 160 amp. Currently this thing is 2d6 with 100% melee power, so 2d6 to 5d6, and then amp, so 5d6 to 13d6, or about 11 hp/sec. This change makes it 21d6 with the larger base and extra amp, or about 18 hp/sec. While 11 hp/s to 18 hp/s is a large jump, I just dont know that its going to matter.

Its the least healing of any barb tree, and at the highest cost since you have to give up 1W and 5 MP to get it. Id have to play with this on lam/live to see, but I have doubts. This may be the sort of thing thats only useful on human barbs maxing out amp or something... with the potential to get up to 30ish hp/s on the right build it might work. But thats *very* limiting.. and completely ignores heroic where the healing will be virtually nil. Something thats only useful at the very top after you stack every existing bonus sounds like poor planning to me, Id rather see an ability which meaningfully works when its available (lv12) and continues to remain relevant through to cap (28 ee). Im not sure a "passive heal over time" is something that can ever be balanced in that fashion, but there you go. Choosing heal/sec or damage/sec is a sophies choice for a FB... maybe you can drop Crazy Strikes to T3 so it doesnt skip a tier in availability, then move Lash Out to the now-empty T4 slot, and then split Healing and Hurting off to allow taking both. Or something else. Point being some other change may be ncessary to make this thing work, right now its kinda like you lose either way. The only difference is, after the change, some people may actually choose the healing, even if it is only supplemental rather than a fully viable mechanic.

Occult Slayer
Fix Mind Over Magic bug when Constitution changes.
One Spirit. Now costs 100 Weapon Bond, and heals for base 400 (4 per Bond expended).

One Spirit change is good. With 2hd weapon attack speeds it allows for 3ish or so uses if spamming it at max speed before you wont have 100 ready as the cd comes off, or around 1 minute of full uptime. Thats about spot on. It also provides a good incentive to twf users, giving them more than one choice with ravager. Increasing the heal amount but limiting the bond, resulting in the exact same "max" it used to have means nothing was lost. And requiring a minimum prevents a situation where your OS might just bottom out their bond spamming things feeling weak. I understand some option was lost (if youre dying and only have 72 bond, this change hurts your chances) but overall the mechanic is much better, in feel and application. Nice.

[Severlin]

What about giving those self-healing effects an amount of scaling with class level (or character level), like Ravager's Blood Strength does? That would make it easier for the ability to be useful in epic while not overpowered in heroic.

Traditional healing sources like Cleric spells scale with level too, so they don't give the same amount at level 12 through 28.

It scales with Melee Power, so it should already scale in Epic.

Sev~