champions sucks.

[elg582]

I've held off commenting about Champions so I could think about it and see how it affected a couple of TR lives.

TL;DR Champions are nothing but (yet another) anti-zerging mechanism; they suck, get rid of them.




Look, Turbine, I get it: I've been a DM, I know what it's like to want your players to do things the way you expect them to; what I don't understand is why you seem to feel that way. A DM in a PnP game gets the thrill of suspense and gratification for having predicted what was going to happen, the feeling like they are always one step ahead, but you can't get that, so why this continual obsession over making sure that people run your quests the "right way?"

Yes, the complaints that start out, "I was mowing through an elite quest 3 levels above me, and I got killed!" are pretty silly, taken out of context; in context, these are 3rd+ life FotM builds in crazy overpowered gear that SHOULD be mowing through elite quests 3 levels above them. If they don't, what chance do 1st-life pure builds have? This essentially forces a split between new and veteran players, unless they (like me) are working through TR lives in classes that are currently at the bottom of the update totem pole.


Oh, and here's the most embarrassing part: Unless your intention was to make class balance even worse than it was after the Paladin/Bard supercharging, it hasn't worked.

I won't go into details, mostly because I have no desire to help you (Turbine) make this system more effective, but Champions are actually rather ridiculous; even in a stealth run, all they do is enforce a 2-second fight every 100 yards and waste SP on re-invis'ing. Again, unless you are playing a suboptimal build or class, like a melee monk or ranger.

And don't even get me started on the mysterious fragment rewards; you should have put exactly 1 additional inventory space in as an option, just to make the entire thing recursively pointless.

[Sehenry03]

I've held off commenting about Champions so I could think about it and see how it affected a couple of TR lives.

TL;DR Champions are nothing but (yet another) anti-zerging mechanism; they suck, get rid of them.




Look, Turbine, I get it: I've been a DM, I know what it's like to want your players to do things the way you expect them to; what I don't understand is why you seem to feel that way. A DM in a PnP game gets the thrill of suspense and gratification for having predicted what was going to happen, the feeling like they are always one step ahead, but you can't get that, so why this continual obsession over making sure that people run your quests the "right way?"

Yes, the complaints that start out, "I was mowing through an elite quest 3 levels above me, and I got killed!" are pretty silly, taken out of context; in context, these are 3rd+ life FotM builds in crazy overpowered gear that SHOULD be mowing through elite quests 3 levels above them. If they don't, what chance do 1st-life pure builds have? This essentially forces a split between new and veteran players, unless they (like me) are working through TR lives in classes that are currently at the bottom of the update totem pole.


Oh, and here's the most embarrassing part: Unless your intention was to make class balance even worse than it was after the Paladin/Bard supercharging, it hasn't worked.

I won't go into details, mostly because I have no desire to help you (Turbine) make this system more effective, but Champions are actually rather ridiculous; even in a stealth run, all they do is enforce a 2-second fight every 100 yards and waste SP on re-invis'ing. Again, unless you are playing a suboptimal build or class, like a melee monk or ranger.

And don't even get me started on the mysterious fragment rewards; you should have put exactly 1 additional inventory space in as an option, just to make the entire thing recursively pointless.

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.

Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.

Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.

Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.

[dunklezhan]

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.

Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.

Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.

Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.

Do note that trip and other tactical feats are currently bugged and more effective than they should be in general. But once that's fixed, assuming you have built and geared for it then yes, Trip should still work on champs of a type that should be vulnerable to it, just like stun, dance, charm all still work if the underlying mob is susceptible.

Charming champs is my favorite strategy. They're SUCH effective aggro magnets

[Sehenry03]

Do note that trip and other tactical feats are currently bugged and more effective than they should be in general. But once that's fixed, assuming you have built and geared for it then yes, Trip should still work on champs of a type that should be vulnerable to it, just like stun, dance, charm all still work if the underlying mob is susceptible.

Charming champs is my favorite strategy. They're SUCH effective aggro magnets

Yeah I tell EVERYONE...and even a few of my guildies just thought they were extra good at tripping...that trip is bugged and will be fixed eventually.

And as far as charming goes...I plan on carrying a charm spell on my sorc this life JUST for champs. Gonna play around with this one a little =)

[dunklezhan]

Yeah I tell EVERYONE...and even a few of my guildies just thought they were extra good at tripping...that trip is bugged and will be fixed eventually.

And as far as charming goes...I plan on carrying a charm spell on my sorc this life JUST for champs. Gonna play around with this one a little =)

Charmed champion acid elementals in Acid Wit are fun.

[elg582]

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.

Whose point? I said that it was intended to stop zerging, and later mentioned that it had failed. It doesn't even make me think, it just prioritizes melee Champion melees over non-Champ (chump? ) casters.

Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.

Or stunned, or frozen, or whatever-CC-you-like, as well as having other weaknesses that I do not care to enumerate.

Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.

Um, no; we are the customers, we have the final say. If we don't like it, they can keep "their" game.

Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.

Yay! One guy is doing OK in a level 6 quest. How's he going to handle a Champion doomsphere or marut?

I've TR'd 2 characters in the past month, elite bb pugs the whole way, and I'm done with it; I'm going back to playing first life characters and just doing normal runs until this goes away.

[psykopeta]

I've TR'd 2 characters in the past month, elite bb pugs the whole way, and I'm done with it; I'm going back to playing first life characters and just doing normal runs until this goes away.

haven't done a single quest in any diff lower than elite nor overlvl, i use to etr and then itr, so it's... 3 times all epic sagas

where's the OMFG champs are one shotting me?!

haven't seen it yet (1st heavy armor life this one btw, itr'ed friday night now i'm 24)

what i see is the "i won't die in a quest unless i go afk or expect from my toon more than he can handle" to "i will only die if i expect from my toon more than he can handle"

now i am... a 12 ranger 6 pally 2 rogue, using heavy armor and twf... one of the so many subpar builds you can see over there, and there's no trouble doing EE

if can't solo it? then don't solo it? don't ask for the game to be soloed by a toon like mine, only makes it boring, in fact it was broing til the annoying champs release

also champs have the bad habbit of chasing us trhought the whole dungeon so, they work fine if their objective is stopping the zerg... well, when cleaving the masses (yay twf with cleave!! subpar do u remember?) i use to target the champ to stun it while the rest die

btw, for running normal u don't need to use a 1st life, 3rd ones can too, in fact wouldn't be much further from how was elite before the champs

[Sehenry03]

haven't done a single quest in any diff lower than elite nor overlvl, i use to etr and then itr, so it's... 3 times all epic sagas

where's the OMFG champs are one shotting me?!

haven't seen it yet (1st heavy armor life this one btw, itr'ed friday night now i'm 24)

what i see is the "i won't die in a quest unless i go afk or expect from my toon more than he can handle" to "i will only die if i expect from my toon more than he can handle"

now i am... a 12 ranger 6 pally 2 rogue, using heavy armor and twf... one of the so many subpar builds you can see over there, and there's no trouble doing EE

if can't solo it? then don't solo it? don't ask for the game to be soloed by a toon like mine, only makes it boring, in fact it was broing til the annoying champs release

also champs have the bad habbit of chasing us trhought the whole dungeon so, they work fine if their objective is stopping the zerg... well, when cleaving the masses (yay twf with cleave!! subpar do u remember?) i use to target the champ to stun it while the rest die

btw, for running normal u don't need to use a 1st life, 3rd ones can too, in fact wouldn't be much further from how was elite before the champs

This 100%

And as far the new player I was referring to and you said "yay! 1 guy is doing great" umm no...that was the first example. I have helped 6 new players over the last few weeks...given gear to 2 of them. NONE of them have even mentioned champs or care about them.

[apacheizm23]

Try a lower difficulty setting.

lol

[apacheizm23]

Sometimes it is not the arrow but the archer who is at fault.

If you are lvl 25 and getting 1 shotted in a lvl 18 quest - even with an astounding 800 HP - then there is something wrong with you. Your build sucks or your playstyle sucks or you forgot to put DW on or something else I didn't mention. No PRR? No MRR? Get some and try again.

You may have even rolled a 1. Stuff happens. Deal with it or play on Normal difficulty until you get better.

Exactly.

[Powskier]

I like the challenge now..they can suk though..but it is o k ...quests like minatour village ;wow did I get my arse kicked earlier... it was a 1st lifer in a new land,but I was suprised that lvl12 run on hard would waste the character . I still hope ,we never go back to no champions- the randomness alone is worth it....oh and the EE champs,well just dont let them hit you twice in a row.

[Powskier]

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.

Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.

Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.

Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.

^ champions are quite manageable in parties..solo, well good luck sometimes will be needed- I havent had rough time with them ,runnin some 1st lifers l8ly. Around lvl12 stormreach they get pretty nasty..but your character should be pretty ubber, for those in elite.

[Postumus]

imagine you are a new player, you have no packs, 28 points build and you just have nothing and you keep dying. would you go buy **** from ddostore as if you are going to continue playing this game very non newbie friendly?

.

When I was new I played on normal until I got good enough to play hard and elite. I expect most new players would play on normal and those who play on hard and elite want more of a challenge anyway.

[elg582]

haven't done a single quest in any diff lower than elite nor overlvl, i use to etr and then itr, so it's... 3 times all epic sagas
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now i am... a 12 ranger 6 pally 2 rogue, using heavy armor and twf[/b]
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where's the OMFG champs are one shotting me?!

So, let's see here:

You are running an overpowered FotM build that hasn't touched any quest under level 17, and you are still mowing through quests. Then there are the experienced but not quite veteran players, who are having some issues. Then there are the newer players, who are getting clobbered trying to keep up.

... one of the so many subpar builds

Subpar?! You didn't take 12 Ranger for the evasion, spells, or ranged ability, and you didn't take 6 Paladin for the bonus to saves or fear immunity, did you? You're playing a Paladin with a large Ranger splash.