champions sucks.

[minimomo]

as a level 25 i ran the last f2p quest from that new pack, just heroic elite for favor, right?

gathered 15 monsters, cleave, cleave... all dead. no sweat.

then one caster cast one spell and bam! i was dead. i was like... really? REALLY?

i will say this: awesome job ddo.

try a bit harder and you can kill this game. just a little bit harder.

i can't even imagine epic elite champions...

[minimomo]

i always considered invisibility runs as some kind of cheat and i killed things when i can. by when i "can", i mean when that doesn't waste my time so freaking much.

before champions, i went and aggroed 10, 15 mobs and cleaved them. if my hp gets too low and if hireling doesnt heal i retreat, drink potions/heal myself, continue cleaving. now, with champions, there are like 2 champions every 10 mobs, sometimes more but just 2 of them is enough to kill you. so i have to kill things 5 by 5 if i don't want to die or keep healing myself which i would hate.

i am playing this game since more than 5 years. i have repeated heroic content more than 15 times and i have seen n/h/e farm times so i run each ddo quest so freaking many times. do you know what kind of a torture this is? every quest basically takes %20-30 longer than they used to.

so... i guess time to get invisible and don't play the game, just run to the finish? was that your original intention? make me ignore the things you develop? go for completion? because belive me, i can kill those champions if i am not reckless but i just have no reason to.

one reason can be exp. give exp for champions and i will kill em.

chests with krappy loot? then you wont "see" me.

[Sehenry03]

You mean you can't just roll every mob in every quest now? Wow that's SO unfair!!!!

[EnziteBob]

Shouldn't just kill the casters first lol. Champions are great. They promote grouping which is something the game needs right now. Yes you can't run into every room face first and expect to live now. That always seemed like bad tactics anyways.

[Inoukchuk]

Shouldn't just kill the casters first lol. Champions are great. They promote grouping which is something the game needs right now. Yes you can't run into every room face first and expect to live now. That always seemed like bad tactics anyways.

This ^

Although I get what the previous poster said about having run all this stuff so often you just want to get through it to get back to 20. That said, it has always been a pet peeve of mine that this game required too little in the way of tactics. I remember the very first time I created an enchantment spec'd wizard my immense disappointment in finding that when I'd rush face first into a room and cast disco ball.... all the mobs were dead before my spell cast finished. Even with quicken sometimes. Having played an enchanter in EQ back in the day, where crowd control and group tactics were 100% required if you didn't want your entire group to have their brains splattered on the wall, this was a huge let down. Now, sad to say, I've gotten used to it. But I'm happy to have a little spontaneous challenge thrown back in. We'll see how I feel about it at higher levels (TR'd right when the champs were added and the GF and holidays have me too busy to play much, so I'm only level 8 now), but since the nerf I barely notice champs now, except to stun/trip them first. But if those are on timer... no biggie, I just cleave/GC and melee down the champ. If it's a really nasty buff combination, heal afterwards (though even then that's rarely needed).

[minimomo]

i run necro 1 flagging quests with my toon yesterday after i post.

me and a first lifer. we both had hirelings.

first lifer died about 6 or 7 times. he would die, i would go get his stone and drop at shrine and he dies again.

so yeah, groups are so much fun!

especially waiting for that lfm to fill. it is nearly orgasmic.

the first a few deaths he was mumbling things like "oh so laggy" and then "stupid hirelings" etc.

then he just stopped after his 5th death or something. when we done with flagging, he quickly said "i g2g, ty, tc."

sooo... yeah. 10 years old game all of a sudden a newbie killer.

i said before, i will say it again: why did you gave everyone so many freaking ship buffs if you were going to implement champions? why did you make it so easy and then why did you make it so hard? why everyone running with +40 to all resistances and 1000 other buffs STARTING FROM LEVEL 2 and then why champions bypass all the fortification and deals 1.5k damage in ee? (i assume thats a crit, if not... then... just lol.)

how it is fair that those triple completionists got there when it was very easy and a newbie have to suffer after 10 years.

why you can't ever make it reasonably challenging? and why do you have to screw things up, still waiting a fix for hirelings! when i order them stand ground they just should like before!

GAH!

[FranOhmsford]

Shouldn't just kill the casters first lol. Champions are great. They promote grouping which is something the game needs right now. Yes you can't run into every room face first and expect to live now. That always seemed like bad tactics anyways.

The new quests have massive mob spawns already - adding champions to the mix WILL cause problems for lesser players {You know...The ones who WEREN'T blasting through content!}.
It makes no difference whatsoever to the elite - Champions aren't THAT powerful!
BUT
It hurts the players who keep this game going - The ones who are still working towards gaining more power!

And you can tell those players to go run a lower difficulty till you're blue in the face but the rewards are so much higher on elite that that just doesn't make sense!
Especially when we're talking about quests that we're already getting tiny amounts of XP from {the OP was a Lvl 25 in a Lvl 18 quest so actually that means ZERO xp already!} - Running Normal or Hard at that point is literally pointless as the ONLY thing that player is after is the Favour!

I took Lieuk {Lvl 26/27 Pure Monk} through the new quests the other day to get him that bit closer to 5k Favour {he's now on 4,952!} and died twice ON HEROIC!
First time was in the Mask of Deception {Lvl 18 on HE} when coming out of the building after getting the mask I ran smack bang into about 20 mobs with multiple champions!
I got boxed in almost instantly!
No AoEs on a Pure Monk meant a quick death!
I bought a cake, ran back into the building and used the traps to whittle the mobs down {those traps actually work on the mobs for a change!}.
Second time was in Fashion Madness when I ran into a Render Champion that I couldn't take down quick enough and behind it was about 5 Eyes all doing silly amounts of Un-Evadeable Force Dmg!
This time I recalled as I was much nearer to my bind point and went back in.

I didn't even attempt Terminal Delirium on Heroic after reading the wiki and realising it is a group quest!
Luckily there was an EE run in progress so I joined that and got my favour {after a huge amount of deaths to multiple members of the party!}.
The Palace was just a long slog - But I'd hate to try running it at level!

[Ayseifn]

It makes no difference whatsoever to the elite - Champions aren't THAT powerful!
BUT
It hurts the players who keep this game going - The ones who are still working towards gaining more power!

That's my biggest gripe with them, I still run into tons of mobs and cleave away on EE. Sure a champ with true seeing will hurt a bit and make me heal but all that means is I have to watch my HP bar now, not really challenging. The ones with tons of HP just mean I need to stun and later trip them if I don't want them to hit me, also maybe kite a little if they're the super powered ones.

We need them to be just as strong against new players as vets, uber geared toons, PLed to the max toons and awesome players in general. Closing some of the gap between newer players and old should be the priority, there's a great base here to work from and a lot of it is equally tough for all but I think it needs more. Also needs more anti ranged tech IMO.

[minimomo]

i think champions especially sucks in heroic content.

heroic pastlives gives nearly nothing until you get all of them and that's still measly +2 to stats and skills... airship buffs gives x50 more than that.

heroic completionist is actually having one less feat in your builds.

so you should make heroic content easier, not harder.

monk life +1 dmg? run 200 quests, work two to three weeks (in my case) and get 1 dmg while these champions annoying the **** out of you?

epic pastlives, those are good. especially because they give you twist points.

%3 chance to double strike just from 1 epic pastlife? that's good.

in fact, getting epic pastlives easier too, you can join a von eh raid at level 20 or 28 so who cares if there are champions or not... people keep spamming eh lord of dust and other stuff, just join em and act like you are hitting things. get your exp get out. but you cant do that in heroics. you mostly have to solo in heroics.

[phillymiket]

i run necro 1 flagging quests with my toon yesterday after i post.

me and a first lifer. we both had hirelings.

first lifer died about 6 or 7 times. he would die, i would go get his stone and drop at shrine and he dies again.

so yeah, groups are so much fun!

especially waiting for that lfm to fill. it is nearly orgasmic.

the first a few deaths he was mumbling things like "oh so laggy" and then "stupid hirelings" etc.

then he just stopped after his 5th death or something. when we done with flagging, he quickly said "i g2g, ty, tc."

sooo... yeah. 10 years old game all of a sudden a newbie killer.

i said before, i will say it again: why did you gave everyone so many freaking ship buffs if you were going to implement champions? why did you make it so easy and then why did you make it so hard? why everyone running with +40 to all resistances and 1000 other buffs STARTING FROM LEVEL 2 and then why champions bypass all the fortification and deals 1.5k damage in ee? (i assume thats a crit, if not... then... just lol.)

how it is fair that those triple completionists got there when it was very easy and a newbie have to suffer after 10 years.

why you can't ever make it reasonably challenging? and why do you have to screw things up, still waiting a fix for hirelings! when i order them stand ground they just should like before!

GAH!

I'm in the Harbor right now on a TR.
I'm actually digging Champions myself.

The Champion Shaman Raises his hands telegraphing a Lightning Bolt and I go GAH! and jump away in terror!
Fear in the Harbor hasn't happened in a long while for me.

So that's good for me.

But, I keep taking hits that make me think, "Ouch, that would have killed a new person".
Or, "Jeez, if I didn't have this Masterfully Crafted Holy Heavy Repeating Crossbow of Bleed with the Guild Slot here at level two then this mob would take a year to bring down".

It's often embarrassing being a new person in a new game.
Especially so in a game with Vets who simply have it all and can do multiple times your DPS with little danger.
Now add mobs that one-shot you left and right - and not even bosses but trash!
Of course a new guy will get cowed by the end and slink away with tail between legs after getting PWNed so bad.

I like Champions but would rather have the game be something that is accommodating to start and then difficult later.
In other words, as much as I'm enjoying the Champion Shamen that actually threatens me i don't need it at the expense of a new persons fun.

Now a 'Champion Level" in the Harbor on top of Elite?
That would be great!
I'd play "Champion Level" just for the fun of it, even if it offered no extra rewards.

[JOTMON]

You mean you can't just roll every mob in every quest now? Wow that's SO unfair!!!!

He was level 25 in a level 18 Heroic running for favor.. he should be steam rolling every mob.
Becomes more than challenging for the at level party when a level 25 is getting one shotted.
..(seems unusual..some information on your level 25.. class/build/HP... how much you got hit for.. and such... was it a Fail on a PK or a disintegrate.. or ???..)

Generally the only issue I had with Elite content from 1-shotters is from mobs that have the bypass all fortification buff which allows them to ignore my 250% fortification and land a crit for 2k
I guess Clerics could re-spec in speed rezzing instead of healing for Elite content.

[Monkey-Boy]

Am I understanding this right . . . a level 25 got one-shotted in a level 18 quest?

How many HP was this toon out of curiosity?

[minimomo]

Am I understanding this right . . . a level 25 got one-shotted in a level 18 quest?

How many HP was this toon out of curiosity?

like 800. dex based rogue.

[Monkey-Boy]

like 800. dex based rogue.

Which is far more than anyone would have in heroics, thanks.

[psykopeta]

Which is far more than anyone would have in heroics, thanks.

there are infinite ways to die, with much higher hp with the information listed (as example, what was the current hp, what was the damage received, which spell was, etc)

just saying, just hit 20 yesterday and haven't seen that "omfg please nerf champions"

ofc i have died, due to champions, to non champions, to traps (have improved evasion btw)

depending the information listed, u get nothing, as example, died due to traps in reavers fate at lvl (im kinda favor grinder, so even in iconic lives i do all the quests i can, getting xp of course, prefer doing once and done than repeating any quest or saga)

champions... i died cause in bastion of power i met a "double i deal extra damage" champion, was only hitting for 100+50 or something (but had more hp than expected), i have 0 prr btw

and non champions... iirc got swarmed in vol temple


elite isn't meant for everybody, and having done 11398 times before doesn't mean deserving the privilege to succeed on elite, nor the lvl

i remember when they added some changes to ee, that was a difficulty impossible for most players, til we all got knowledge and gear, and maybe the right ED (hard to see nowadays someone leveling an ED) and took our time, and some nerfs to mobs, for being able to succeed on it

now with just complaining EE meant easy for everyone instead of epic elite

btw, one lvl 25 toon must be really well built, to be stronger than any lvl 18 party setup, at least a lvl 18 party which is supposed to be able to handle heroic elite

PS: im a str acrobat, or something like that (getting monk pl, sun elf pl, but also once i ETR i will switch to ninja with kamas or shortswords, for the sake of trying most if not all common builds) at 12 monk 7 rogue 1 clr

if a subpar and subgeared toon can handle it, well build and well geared toons should too

PS2: some dev said that new quests weren't a wise idea to test the champions-hate fever

[TrinityTurtle]

[QUOTE=minimomo;5494276]as a level 25 i ran the last f2p quest from that new pack, just heroic elite for favor, right?

gathered 15 monsters, cleave, cleave... all dead. no sweat.

then one caster cast one spell and bam! i was dead. i was like... really? REALLY?
[QUOTE]

What spell specifically was it? What protections did you have in place against that type of magic?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Try a lower difficulty setting.

[Zzevel]

how it is fair that those triple completionists got there when it was very easy and a newbie have to suffer after 10 years.

I am not a triple completionist, actually I do not have a single toon past their 3rd TR and play many first lifers and I love that champions have brought some challenge back into the game and also remind us that CON is not a dump stat. I would assume you do not know what the challenge ever was as you stated you were playing the last F2P.

You were not here when Level 16 was the cap, When Shroud's routinely failed... When people were EXCITED to have a Vorpal weapon. The game has powercrept us into getting a ribbon for participating. champions help to fix that issue. I am glad the money I pay to play goes toward keeping the game fresh and giving a little challenge now and then. If you do not like champions would like to suggest that they do have 2 levels of difficulty with no champions.

Back in the day when a party got wiped were figured out what we did wrong, regrouped and went in again. There SHOULD be a challenge and every quest on elite SHOULD NOT be automatic. Personally I thing they moved champions TOO far back on their fix and should ramp them up a bit... It's about time some challenge was re-introduced to DDO, but that's just MY opinion as a paying VIP subscriber.

[minimomo]

it doesn't matter what spell it was. it wasn't a new spell ddo just implemented. it wasn't a save or die spell either, it wasn't disintegration or anything....

i don't want to get lost in details. as a 5 years old player i always solo heroic elites and i never die and i do that at level.

let alone when level 25 and running 18 heroic elite.

if that happens to me, and i am an experienced player, what will it do to newbies? at level? with lower hp? which i already answered with my necro 1 flagging post above. they will keep dying then they will feel gimped.

imagine you are a new player, you have no packs, 28 points build and you just have nothing and you keep dying. would you go buy **** from ddostore as if you are going to continue playing this game very non newbie friendly?

people keep reporting combat texts like : golem hit you bludgeoning damage 1287. you died.

it is clearly too much. please don't reset this discussion to beginning every new person...

[minimomo]

I am not a triple completionist, actually I do not have a single toon past their 3rd TR and play many first lifers and I love that champions have brought some challenge back into the game and also remind us that CON is not a dump stat. I would assume you do not know what the challenge ever was as you stated you were playing the last F2P.

You were not here when Level 16 was the cap, When Shroud's routinely failed... When people were EXCITED to have a Vorpal weapon. The game has powercrept us into getting a ribbon for participating. champions help to fix that issue. I am glad the money I pay to play goes toward keeping the game fresh and giving a little challenge now and then. If you do not like champions would like to suggest that they do have 2 levels of difficulty with no champions.

Back in the day when a party got wiped were figured out what we did wrong, regrouped and went in again. There SHOULD be a challenge and every quest on elite SHOULD NOT be automatic. Personally I thing they moved champions TOO far back on their fix and should ramp them up a bit... It's about time some challenge was re-introduced to DDO, but that's just MY opinion as a paying VIP subscriber.

you weren't here 87987 million years ago when we were hunting dinasours and living in caves.

therefore let's get naked and live like monkeys and hump each other whenever we feel like.

all mmos start hard, gets easier in years. especially if there's a rebirth system of some sort. then it gets even more easier for those who kept playing.

they don't one day wake up and things start to one shot them again all of a ****ing sudden!