The infamous "ammo" issue...

[bsquishwizzy]

The Problem

Ammo management sucks. It just sucks. I want to collect slaying arrows, or craft various stacks of arrows and hold them, I've got to buy a bunch of quivers, and the quiver capacity sucks. I can't control what arrows you can select from which quiver, nor swap them out. All in all...ammo management sucks. If forces you into bolt / arrow conjuring.

If you are collecting slaying arrows / bolt - which is a good idea, by the way - the is no clean way to gather them, and hold them outside of buying a bunch of quivers. Even with that, you have no idea which quiver holds which set of arrows...it's just a mess.


Solution 1: The Ammo Crate

Basically, we add a new tab or a new character bank called "The Ammo Crate." It works much like the current character bank but it holds only ammunition, in stacks of 2000. It also has another slot that holds a quiver. When a quiver is dragged in to this spot, it opens up a new window with the contents of the quiver. Two arrows control whether selected ammo in either the quiver or ammo crate is transferred - in increments of 100. This way, you can load or unload ammo into specific quivers you carry and adjust the inventories you need to carry per quest.

Plus, having a separate section in the bank specifically for ammo allows you to hold all of the various ammo permutations (bane, slayer, greater slayer, and so on) without consuming critical backpack and/or bank space, and makes accumulating these types of ammunition much easier across lives. Plus, Turbine can sell extra crate slots like they do bank slots.


Solution 2: The Quiver Hotbar

When you equip a quiver, an option should be added (check box) to show a quiver-specific hotbar. By selecting or deselecting ammo in the hotbar, inventory is transferred in and out of the quiver on-demand to your characters ammo slot. Each quiver slot has a memory of what it held last, so when a new set of ammo is selected, the old ammo is returned to the last quiver slot it occupied. Having a quiver slot "memory" (until that ammo is entirely expended in both the quiver and the player's backpack) prevents inventory being moved out of the quiver for use, and the errantly returning it to the backpack. Likewise, it makes switching different ammo types a relative breeze for those ranged builds, making it more like what a melee toon with their "golf bag" of weapons.


Ok, thoughts?

[LuKaSu]

The Problem

Ammo management sucks. It just sucks. I want to collect slaying arrows, or craft various stacks of arrows and hold them, I've got to buy a bunch of quivers, and the quiver capacity sucks. I can't control what arrows you can select from which quiver, nor swap them out. All in all...ammo management sucks. If forces you into bolt / arrow conjuring.

If you are collecting slaying arrows / bolt - which is a good idea, by the way - the is no clean way to gather them, and hold them outside of buying a bunch of quivers. Even with that, you have no idea which quiver holds which set of arrows...it's just a mess.


Solution 1: The Ammo Crate

Basically, we add a new tab or a new character bank called "The Ammo Crate." It works much like the current character bank but it holds only ammunition, in stacks of 2000. It also has another slot that holds a quiver. When a quiver is dragged in to this spot, it opens up a new window with the contents of the quiver. Two arrows control whether selected ammo in either the quiver or ammo crate is transferred - in increments of 100. This way, you can load or unload ammo into specific quivers you carry and adjust the inventories you need to carry per quest.

Plus, having a separate section in the bank specifically for ammo allows you to hold all of the various ammo permutations (bane, slayer, greater slayer, and so on) without consuming critical backpack and/or bank space, and makes accumulating these types of ammunition much easier across lives. Plus, Turbine can sell extra crate slots like they do bank slots.


Solution 2: The Quiver Hotbar

When you equip a quiver, an option should be added (check box) to show a quiver-specific hotbar. By selecting or deselecting ammo in the hotbar, inventory is transferred in and out of the quiver on-demand to your characters ammo slot. Each quiver slot has a memory of what it held last, so when a new set of ammo is selected, the old ammo is returned to the last quiver slot it occupied. Having a quiver slot "memory" (until that ammo is entirely expended in both the quiver and the player's backpack) prevents inventory being moved out of the quiver for use, and the errantly returning it to the backpack. Likewise, it makes switching different ammo types a relative breeze for those ranged builds, making it more like what a melee toon with their "golf bag" of weapons.


Ok, thoughts?

Great Insights, but I would propose a modification to solution 2. You could drag a set of arrows from a quiver onto your hotbar. Click on the button on the hotbar and the current arrows are dropped into the current quiver (or dispelled), then the quiver with your selected arrows is auto-equipped and your arrows would be equipped. So then, you wouldn't need to actually build new hotbars for each quiver. You could just drag arrows into normal hotbars. (To do all of this, there would have to be reserved space in any currently-equipped quiver for the arrows you currently have equipped)

[Lonnbeimnech]

Solution : Take at least one level of ranger if you plan on using a bow, spend 3 AP in AA. Vendor all other arrows.

[Saekee]

I feel like the problem with quivers starts with the shortcut bar's use of them. Clicking there opens up a window revealing the quiver's contents. For almost all other equipment shortcuts, clicking on something equips it.

There is a far simpler solution here using the drop down menu employed by metamagic feats. Simple select from a drop-down menu on a quiver the action that occurs when it is clicked: 1) it equips the quiver and its arrows or 2) it opens the quiver.
This way you can have a hotbar with various quivers, even the same one twice but with separate functions, etc.

Of course it would help if they didn't mostly look alike.

[nibel]

Solution 3: Change the "ammo" slot to a equipment slot and stop counting individual arrows/bolts. Non-basic enchanted arrows have a "clicky" effect that gives a small boost to their passive magicness, and after being clicked X times, they are destroyed.

Example 1: A +1 Flaming Bolt deals +1d6 flaming damage per hit. If clicked, the next three shots do a fireball-like effect on the target (3d6 fire damage on area, reflex for half, DC ~15).
Example 2: A +1 Arrow of Giant Bane deals +2d6 damage against giants. If clicked, the next shot, if hit a giant, will force them to do a fortitude save (DC ~25) or die instantly. On a save, it will still take 100 bane damage.

As the enchantment bonus on the arrow raises, so do the damage and the DC on their effects. Elemental arrows can work like the current "flaming" (ie, +1 is 1d6, +2 is 2d4, +3 is 3d4...), and the cliky DC/damage is also raised accordingly. (ie, a +6 Bolt of Giant Bane can deal +12d4 damage and have a DC of 50, with 600 bane damage on save)

Sure, this would devalue the AA Conjure Arrow enhancement, and the Conjure Bolt/Flaming Arrow spells, but would make dropped ammo something else besides vendor trash. I mean, nowadays, you find 20 arrows of awesomeness, and they get expended in less than a minute. Everyone that uses ranged weapons as their primary weapon will find a way to have infinite ammunition instead of caring about carrying out the +5 flaming bolts you loot.

[bsquishwizzy]

Solution 3: Change the "ammo" slot to a equipment slot and stop counting individual arrows/bolts. Non-basic enchanted arrows have a "clicky" effect that gives a small boost to their passive magicness, and after being clicked X times, they are destroyed.

Example 1: A +1 Flaming Bolt deals +1d6 flaming damage per hit. If clicked, the next three shots do a fireball-like effect on the target (3d6 fire damage on area, reflex for half, DC ~15).
Example 2: A +1 Arrow of Giant Bane deals +2d6 damage against giants. If clicked, the next shot, if hit a giant, will force them to do a fortitude save (DC ~25) or die instantly. On a save, it will still take 100 bane damage.

As the enchantment bonus on the arrow raises, so do the damage and the DC on their effects. Elemental arrows can work like the current "flaming" (ie, +1 is 1d6, +2 is 2d4, +3 is 3d4...), and the cliky DC/damage is also raised accordingly. (ie, a +6 Bolt of Giant Bane can deal +12d4 damage and have a DC of 50, with 600 bane damage on save)

Sure, this would devalue the AA Conjure Arrow enhancement, and the Conjure Bolt/Flaming Arrow spells, but would make dropped ammo something else besides vendor trash. I mean, nowadays, you find 20 arrows of awesomeness, and they get expended in less than a minute. Everyone that uses ranged weapons as their primary weapon will find a way to have infinite ammunition instead of caring about carrying out the +5 flaming bolts you loot.

The only problem with that is that it would require pulling all slaying arrows out of the loot tables, and replacing them with this clicky. What I'm proposing uses what already exists as loot.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but it may be more work than maybe adding a new back and a item-specific hotbar.

[bsquishwizzy]

I feel like the problem with quivers starts with the shortcut bar's use of them. Clicking there opens up a window revealing the quiver's contents. For almost all other equipment shortcuts, clicking on something equips it.

There is a far simpler solution here using the drop down menu employed by metamagic feats. Simple select from a drop-down menu on a quiver the action that occurs when it is clicked: 1) it equips the quiver and its arrows or 2) it opens the quiver.
This way you can have a hotbar with various quivers, even the same one twice but with separate functions, etc.

Of course it would help if they didn't mostly look alike.

That's part of the problem, and naming the quivers wouldn't be much of a help.

The problem with your main suggestion is that arrows come in and out of the quiver in sequential order. So when one type of ammunition is expended, the next in line loads. And at present, using those stupid arrows in the current quiver window is a monumental PITA. However, opening up a hotbar with the ammunition in it, and equipping ammo on-demand would be much quicker. Plus, when ammo of a particular type runs out, it would show in the hotbar. if you want to switch to a different type of ammo at that point, it is simply a click on the hotbar.

[bsquishwizzy]

Solution : Take at least one level of ranger if you plan on using a bow, spend 3 AP in AA. Vendor all other arrows.

I'm already doing that.

And I'm passing up on basically instakills because they are ammo-based.

[bsquishwizzy]

Great Insights, but I would propose a modification to solution 2. You could drag a set of arrows from a quiver onto your hotbar. Click on the button on the hotbar and the current arrows are dropped into the current quiver (or dispelled), then the quiver with your selected arrows is auto-equipped and your arrows would be equipped. So then, you wouldn't need to actually build new hotbars for each quiver. You could just drag arrows into normal hotbars. (To do all of this, there would have to be reserved space in any currently-equipped quiver for the arrows you currently have equipped)

The current hotbar system sorta works like that already, albeit slightly messed-up. Likewise, to make the changes you suggest, they may have to mess with the current system that auto-acquires ammo in all quivers, to avoid slots in the current quiver from filling-up on ammo that you pull from a chest. If my suggested hotbar is open, only those arrows that exist in the quiver would be expended or filled (should you loot a chest). It would take precedence over the other auto-gathering quivers you've got going out there, but ONLY gather those arrows / bolts you've got in there since you opened up the hotbar (or, perhaps, moved the quiver into the equipped spot).

[Enoach]

I also utilize these arrows and carry multiple quivers a couple named ones like a Poison and Quivering one.

It would be nice to be able to drag the arrows for shortcuts on the existing shortcut bars. Clicking them should put the 100/Or limit in the current equipped slot.

I'm not sure about it changing the Quiver.

What I do currently as part of METAGAMING

I keep the Poison Quiver empty, I use the Summon Arrows from AA or Fire Arrows from the Fire Arrow Wands as my defaults and put these on my hotbar. I then move arrows that are of value to empty slots in my backpack - I've found I usually only need 3 or fewer slayer types per quest or Metal/Special Types. This allows me to switch between the arrow types. It does take management and slayer arrows only stack to 100 so I do need to stop on occasion to pull out another 100.

Again I would like to see a way to put the arrows on a hotbar to allow me not only to monitor how many of each arrow I have but also be able to simply switch to a specific arrow type quickly - Even though I will still need a system to make it quick to find which one on the hotbar since they all look the same.

[btolson]

I'd build on the Ammo Crate idea:

1) Quivers cease to be containers. They instead serve as veneers, and for granting enchantments like all gear.
2) All ammunition stacks to 10,000.
3) All ammunition goes into your new Ammo Panel automatically.

• This Panel looks similar to a regular inventory tab, except it is divided into two halves: the top half is the Auto-Draw Section and the bottom half is the Manual-Draw Section.
  
  • If firing your weapon causes your current ammo stack to be depleted, then a new stack of ammo will be automatically equipped by searching through the Auto-Draw Section (searches left to right, top to bottom).
  • Ammunition stored in the Manual Draw Section will never be automatically equipped; it can only be equipped manually. This makes it impossible to accidentally waste ammo you meant to save.
• All Ammunition (regardless of which section it is in) can be directly hotbarred from this Ammo Panel.
• This Panel will be accessible by clicking a new button adjacent to the active ammo slot on your inventory window, and also via some hotkey.

[cdbd3rd]

I'd build on the Ammo Crate idea:

1) Quivers cease to be containers. They instead serve as veneers, and for granting enchantments like all gear.
2) All ammunition stacks to 10,000.
3) All ammunition goes into your new Ammo Panel automatically.

• This Panel looks similar to a regular inventory tab, except it is divided into two halves: the top half is the Auto-Draw Section and the bottom half is the Manual-Draw Section.
  
  • If firing your weapon causes your current ammo stack to be depleted, then a new stack of ammo will be automatically equipped by searching through the Auto-Draw Section (searches left to right, top to bottom).
  • Ammunition stored in the Manual Draw Section will never be automatically equipped; it can only be equipped manually. This makes it impossible to accidentally waste ammo you meant to save.
  
  
• All Ammunition (regardless of which section it is in) can be directly hotbarred from this Ammo Panel.
• This Panel will be accessible by clicking a new button adjacent to the active ammo slot on your inventory window, and also via some hotkey.

Am liking this idea.

[nibel]

I agree with you that if we had a simple and quick way to fix the quiver issue, it would be awesome. But the DDO system has proven time and again that it do not like containers. Even on Cannith Crafting, to use any shard of potential recipe you need to drag the ingredients outside the bag, because they don't "understand" that you just dragged an item from inside.

We even had some dev comment a long time ago saying that this is the major reason why they never gave us spell component bags, scroll cases, and potion belts. Because just like the cookie jar, you still need to remove them from the container before you can consume them.

And quivers are coded as arrow containers. I think we are lucky they draw ammo automatically in order.

Since we would have to mess with code to make quivers work in any way that allow hotbaring stocked arrows, I just think it is a good time to revamp the ammo system and make ammo better than just "grab infinite ammo or don't care".

[Aliss7]

I complained about this years ago:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...used?p=4411403

When I first started playing, arrow management was semi-ok (manageable), it's just a mess now. I collect slayer arrows for fun, but don't bother using them at all except to meta-game in specific instances. Add to this, if you are a two weapon user, it's impossible to keep a clean inventory as you pick stuff up and switch between weapons.

[bsquishwizzy]

I agree with you that if we had a simple and quick way to fix the quiver issue, it would be awesome. But the DDO system has proven time and again that it do not like containers. Even on Cannith Crafting, to use any shard of potential recipe you need to drag the ingredients outside the bag, because they don't "understand" that you just dragged an item from inside.

I don't think that is a container issue per se, bot a problem with the logic that finds components in your inventory. Doing a little reverse-engineering in my head (I do a lot of that), when you select a shard of potential, and even define an essence type to use, the crafting device has to recursively g through your inventory finding that element. It starts with the backpack, finds something, and stops there. It doesn't consolidate the quantities of that specific essence you're carrying, and I think part of that has to due with the fact that once they are consumed, it has to backtrack and subtract the appropriate amounts of all of your various locations (assuming that quantities are consolidated). You have to start making decisions as to what you're going pull, and from where, which can get a bit messy. So, they just pick one, and that's what you use.

And the Shard of Potential gets even worse when you consider that there are different flavors of those (per each component type: arcane, divine, and so on), and that you can pick any of those essences to use for each class of essences.

What I'm recommending as a baseline avoids all of that because you're only dealing with an equipped quiver, the current ammo slot, and a special taskbar that only applies to the equipped quiver. So the logic on their end is actually much more simplistic than what you're dealing with when crafting.

Since we would have to mess with code to make quivers work in any way that allow hotbaring stocked arrows, I just think it is a good time to revamp the ammo system and make ammo better than just "grab infinite ammo or don't care".

Me too.

All this talk about re-vamping ranged toons is what got me on this subject. Half of the problem with most ranged toons isn't really DPS, nor should it be. It just that one of the best sources for DPS is a major PITA to use. With a semi-decent weapon, two ammo imbues, and a third ammo type (holy / acid / flaming / etc.) you can actually do some decent damage. Problem is that one-third of that equation is just plain lost because managing the ammo it totally lost. I'd rather keep what's distinctive about being a purely ranged toon and enhancing that lost one-third of the equation, then bypassing it and just buffing the other two-thirds. The latter just seems dumb to me.

[bsquishwizzy]

I'd build on the Ammo Crate idea:

1) Quivers cease to be containers. They instead serve as veneers, and for granting enchantments like all gear.
2) All ammunition stacks to 10,000.
3) All ammunition goes into your new Ammo Panel automatically.

• This Panel looks similar to a regular inventory tab, except it is divided into two halves: the top half is the Auto-Draw Section and the bottom half is the Manual-Draw Section.
  
  • If firing your weapon causes your current ammo stack to be depleted, then a new stack of ammo will be automatically equipped by searching through the Auto-Draw Section (searches left to right, top to bottom).
  • Ammunition stored in the Manual Draw Section will never be automatically equipped; it can only be equipped manually. This makes it impossible to accidentally waste ammo you meant to save.
• All Ammunition (regardless of which section it is in) can be directly hotbarred from this Ammo Panel.
• This Panel will be accessible by clicking a new button adjacent to the active ammo slot on your inventory window, and also via some hotkey.

I think this is a cool alternative, but it would basically kill immersion.

I DO like the auto draw and manual draw options, though. Maybe sub-dividing quivers and being able to horbar stuff?

And yes, I think we need more named-quivers, even random loot quivers in the game. Being able to add Deadly, Seeker, or even some specialized ammo / ranged attributes (5% AoE spell proc on hit) would be HUGE for a ranged class.

Imagine, say, a +3 Screaming / Roaring / whatever of Puncturing bow with two imbues, a +2 Holy arrow, with a quiver that gives you Frost II and 3% doubleshot. You don't need to buff ranged toons at that point. And multi-shot? It becomes a boss-killer again.

[btolson]

I'm pretty sure you'll never be able to hotbar anything inside a container, hence the need for quivers as containers to go.

Containers in general just need to go. Not only are they are cumbersome, but also the root of the most damaging exploits in the game and end up being a recurring drain on manpower to combat them. With the amount of manhours they've spent trying to fix loopholes in containers over the past year, they could have delivered a completely new system for storing ingredients.

[bsquishwizzy]

*bump*

I just went out to do Sands slayers with my Quiver of Poison filled to the gills with Holy, Frost, and Fire arrows. I didn't have to conjure a single arrow. Having bow effects, and arrow effect, and my two imbues was great. Cripes, it made my AA feel viable again.

[Missing_Minds]

*bump*

I just went out to do Sands slayers with my Quiver of Poison filled to the gills with Holy, Frost, and Fire arrows. I didn't have to conjure a single arrow. Having bow effects, and arrow effect, and my two imbues was great. Cripes, it made my AA feel viable again.

This is just a side comment/tangent.

I really wish they'd follow 3.0 rules that ammo stacked with bow due to the rate of fire in the game.

[Qhualor]

/signed for a solution