Monster Champion Feedback

[Glascanon]

HE quests don't really pose a challenge by themselves anymore, but with so few PUGs and generally not the quests I need to do, it has now become all but impossible to complete my completionist.

Change your mind. Run hard streak and u will notice: It might take longer then on a HE Streak but its totally possible to get lvl 20. U could even do it on normal.
There is no permanent quest ransack anymore. Its totally possible to get from lvl 1 to lvl 20 with just 10 quests. So dont tell its Impossible. It just got harder. But as u might notice the last 6 Updates before made TR just easier.
So at the end we just got back to where we came from. And several players don´t have any problems running HE Streaks at all. It might help to play more patient and don't just rush trough the quests.

[psykopeta]

Pretty much all of this. I stopped having fun (and therefor stopped playing and unfortunately canceled my VIP as well, sorry) when the champion monsters were kicking my Monk's backside. Characters on Heroic aren't specced for Champions when they travel in groups and come with debuffing party (HE Whisperdoom comes to mind). Turbine could've just souped up the difficulty of the regular monsters instead of the Champions. HE quests don't really pose a challenge by themselves anymore, but with so few PUGs and generally not the quests I need to do, it has now become all but impossible to complete my completionist. Not that it mattered, since he was only in his 5th life, but any hope I had of completing more challenging lives are now completely lost unless I manage to build a character so specifically built for cashing tons of Champion damage that it isn't good at being offensive anymore. Good luck doing that with healers.

there're really few builds that are good at offensive and aren't good at defensive, really few

by good it means well build, no need for gear on heroics

if it's well build u can do on heroics the same as before, maybe a bit slower, not that much

[TerysDethswind]

With 22 lives, epic gear, and supreme +6 tome, I was rather hoping to be a champion of sorts myself. Sadly, a kobold (which has 1d4 HP in the paper and pen version of AD&D) champion has 40 times as many hit points than I will ever have and hits harder than my "epic" weapons. The recurring theme on these messages is that people want more difficulty and those of us that do not are "entitled". I can make the same argument in reverse, those who claim the quests are too easy feel "entitled" to making everyone else suffer for not having their impeccable gear, the perfect build, or the good fortune to have a steady group. In truth, however, it is not about entitlement, its about wanting to enjoy the game (for both sides of the argument). I have enjoyed the game for six years, and easily spent $7k on it. I am retired, and therefore able to play between 6-12 hours a day. I prefer running in a group, but that has become very difficult to find for many quests as everyone seems concerned with Bravery Bonuses, and now continues with the exclusionary rules governing champion remnants. The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important.

[Qhualor]

The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine.

the group espousing the argument to play on a lower difficulty has merit and you have no problem with it, but you want elite favor, xp and loot. that's where I start using the word "entitlement" but also add the word "contradiction". if more players played the difficulty they can handle than there wouldn't be this problem of feeling the need for highest difficulty rewards, xp and favor mainly. you can still level on a hard BB and repeat few to no quests even on a multi life. playing 6-12 hours a day you should be leveling pretty fast.

[Gljosh]

This might be an out of place question. Do champions appear in Challenges? Everything I have read states not in raids (really they should appear in these) and wilderness areas.

[FestusHood]

This might be an out of place question. Do champions appear in Challenges? Everything I have read states not in raids (really they should appear in these) and wilderness areas.

No.

[HAL]

The current implementation of champions isn't much of an issue. However in certain quests that spawn wave after wave of mobs champions can really get out of hand depending on RNG. I suggest that in this type of quest the chance of champions in subsequent waves of mobs is dependent on how many were spawned in the previous wave. Recently did Belly of the Beast EE at level and it was brutal.

[HAL]

With 22 lives, epic gear, and supreme +6 tome, I was rather hoping to be a champion of sorts myself. Sadly, a kobold (which has 1d4 HP in the paper and pen version of AD&D) champion has 40 times as many hit points than I will ever have and hits harder than my "epic" weapons. The recurring theme on these messages is that people want more difficulty and those of us that do not are "entitled". I can make the same argument in reverse, those who claim the quests are too easy feel "entitled" to making everyone else suffer for not having their impeccable gear, the perfect build, or the good fortune to have a steady group. In truth, however, it is not about entitlement, its about wanting to enjoy the game (for both sides of the argument). I have enjoyed the game for six years, and easily spent $7k on it. I am retired, and therefore able to play between 6-12 hours a day. I prefer running in a group, but that has become very difficult to find for many quests as everyone seems concerned with Bravery Bonuses, and now continues with the exclusionary rules governing champion remnants. The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important.

I completely agree.

[esojiul]

I completely agree.

I disagre...

[MangLord]

For the past week or so, I've been taking a bit of a break from the constant ETRing I've been working on to enjoy my main character a bit at level cap and actually use the two complete TF weapons I'd put so much time into making, and to revisit my 3rd life Dwarf Fighter/Cleric that was parked at level 7 for nearly a year.

For my main, I have to say that a Mortal Fear weapon helps a lot. I just finished it recently, and it makes EE much less dangerous as a melee, especially against orange named champions. I've also managed to farm out pretty much every piece of gear that I've been looking for, so I'm completely optimized in that respect. That can't hurt my survivability. (the Ward Token is surprisingly good. I won it on a roll and I've been more than pleasantly surprised.) Overall I find champions, be they trash or babybosses, much more dangerous than red names. They have much better random buffs and generally hit a lot harder. However, the two champion buffs that feel cheap are the fort bypass and almost standard true seeing. My character relies pretty heavily on blur and displacement, so true seeing throws a big stick in my spokes. Other than that, I like the added challenge they provide and I think they're generally ok. I think that running a quest at epic levels should always drop champion coins. The bravery bonus system works great for heroic content, but epic doesn't have enough content yet to implement such a system. Personally, I run EH Two Toed Tobias once a day (mostly to try for the cursed blade but it also pays out great xp) and it's a bummer when I'm not getting champion coins anymore. If you want to scale down the rewards based on how many levels over the quest a character is, that's fine with me. It would be nice if I'm still getting at least one coin when I'm still dealing with orange named champions that have the potential to be very dangerous. A reduced rate is perfectly fair.

As far as heroic levels, I think the champions are fine so far. I've gotten my dwarf from 7 to 10, and haven't had any major issues with champions as of yet. He does have access to mastercrafted cannith crafting gear courtesy of my main and some excellent named items, so that can't hurt at all. I can see how someone without optimized gear would get into a bind with the advent of champions. There have been a few hairy moments when I got a champion that hit really hard with some serious damage reduction buff, but the fact that hireling healers are generally still capable of survival in HE makes a big difference. My cleric levels and a pile of Improved Healing Elixirs from collectable hoarding give me enough self healing until the hireling can respond, so it works out. He's a greataxe kensei DPS build, which feels a touch outdated with the state of the current game (if I hadn't save so many awesome greataxes and pre-emptively festival icy bursted many of them, I'd probably respec into vanguard with a tower shield and dwarven axes), but his damage is really great and I've found through game experience and personal preference that focusing on offense is usually also a good defense.
The heavy armor changes have made a noticeable difference in the frequency that I'm on code red for incoming heals. Seriously great job on that, Turbine.

I have definitely noticed that HE seems to pay out much, much better in terms of champion bits. Even running EH and EE with my capped main, allowing my at level pals to kill the champions, I finished out a 3-4 hour session with 50-100 bits. I found that my level 10 dwarf will usually end a similar gaming session with 2-3x that many. I can certainly get through far more heroic elite quests in an hour than I can get through epic elite, so maybe that's where the difference lies. I think EH should pay out a little bit better. I almost never get more that 3 tokens, and the regular champions hardly ever drop anything.

[HAL]

To quote a post from the General Discussion forum:

There are still lots of issues with champion remnants.

So far on in my EE questing for XP.. the at level chests drop anywhere from 1 - 38 remnants (for me so far)... shouldn't Epic Elite drop more than 1 ..
~I can get lots of singles rolling up a newbie veteran toon and using a hireling to beating up kobolds while I go afk and watch Netflix.. or is level difficulty supposed to be irrelevant for remnant drop quantities..

1 in 10 chests is unreachable, whether it is up in the air, or below the ground.
sometimes chests in the ground can be opened if you face it the right way, sometimes not..
had one where I could only open/loot by running against the wall while opening the chest, otherwise wall ones are usually unlootable.
The air ones are generally a miss, don't have the air hang time to open the chest while jumping at the chest.

Ground remnants, sometimes don't seem to spawn until after the mob has disappeared, I try targeting for remnants when champion dies, see none, move on.
Go back that passage way later and see remnants sitting on the ground where I had previously killed a champion.
Could be a delay in spawning issue, but seems inconsistent.

Also:

Even more annoying for me is the Orange names like some of the ones in Detour that you can't kill. Since you can't actually kill them, they won't spawn a chest. You can get them to negative hit points but they have a "defeat" animation so they won't actually die.

And a wonderful comment by redoubt: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5537185

[MangLord]

With 22 lives, epic gear, and supreme +6 tome, I was rather hoping to be a champion of sorts myself. Sadly, a kobold (which has 1d4 HP in the paper and pen version of AD&D) champion has 40 times as many hit points than I will ever have and hits harder than my "epic" weapons. The recurring theme on these messages is that people want more difficulty and those of us that do not are "entitled". I can make the same argument in reverse, those who claim the quests are too easy feel "entitled" to making everyone else suffer for not having their impeccable gear, the perfect build, or the good fortune to have a steady group. In truth, however, it is not about entitlement, its about wanting to enjoy the game (for both sides of the argument). I have enjoyed the game for six years, and easily spent $7k on it. I am retired, and therefore able to play between 6-12 hours a day. I prefer running in a group, but that has become very difficult to find for many quests as everyone seems concerned with Bravery Bonuses, and now continues with the exclusionary rules governing champion remnants. The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important.

Good points and I sympathize. Many times my friends aren't online, or at a different level range than I am. I usually solo in those cases, since I'm somewhere in the grey area between hardcore zerg and true flowersniffer. I consider myself to be a speedy conquest/ransack player. Its hard to find similarly minded players, especially at heroic levels where people are mainly on a race to hit level 20. I tend to solo for that specific reason. It makes me crazy when people leave boxes unbroken or cast invisibility to get to the boss as quickly as possible. I think it's fine if someone wants to play like that, I just don't want to be in their party.

[TerysDethswind]

the group espousing the argument to play on a lower difficulty has merit and you have no problem with it, but you want elite favor, xp and loot. that's where I start using the word "entitlement" but also add the word "contradiction". if more players played the difficulty they can handle than there wouldn't be this problem of feeling the need for highest difficulty rewards, xp and favor mainly. you can still level on a hard BB and repeat few to no quests even on a multi life. playing 6-12 hours a day you should be leveling pretty fast.

How would it be entitlement if everything was the same? There would not be any elite gear, XP, or favor. The concept of providing a different reward based on difficulty level creates the system that encourages higher difficulty levels for rewards rather than setting the game to a difficulty level people enjoy playing.

[Stoner81]

Tangleroot is a complete mess!!!!!

I have done the first 2 or so quests tonight and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly beyond dumb! Champions are supposed to be leaders of small groups of mobs therefore you shouldn't get 2+ Champions per mob it just doesn't make sense any other way. The attack animation which consists of the 3 very quick strikes can total upwards of 100HP or higher if they crit (which they do... a lot), characters at this level (level 5-6) just don't have the HP to deal with this amount of damage. The CR was either 11 or 12 (not exactly sure) in a level 6 quest on Elite for heavens sake!

Dealing with one Champion which deals a lot of damage is one thing but dealing with multiple Champions PLUS other mobs ALL AT THE SAME TIME is something else entirely and needs to be fixed please!!!

Stoner81.

[esojiul]

Tangleroot is a complete mess!!!!!

I have done the first 2 or so quests tonight and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly beyond dumb! Champions are supposed to be leaders of small groups of mobs therefore you shouldn't get 2+ Champions per mob it just doesn't make sense any other way. The attack animation which consists of the 3 very quick strikes can total upwards of 100HP or higher if they crit (which they do... a lot), characters at this level (level 5-6) just don't have the HP to deal with this amount of damage. The CR was either 11 or 12 (not exactly sure) in a level 6 quest on Elite for heavens sake!

Dealing with one Champion which deals a lot of damage is one thing but dealing with multiple Champions PLUS other mobs ALL AT THE SAME TIME is something else entirely and needs to be fixed please!!!

Stoner81.

If it to tough for you, do it on normal: i dont have problem leveling. If the quest became difficult, post for a party. You wont have any problem.
I like champion system, maybe:
CAsual- normal: no champion
Hard: champions
Elite: champion do more dmg

[Stoner81]

If it to tough for you, do it on normal: i dont have problem leveling. If the quest became difficult, post for a party. You wont have any problem.
I like champion system, maybe:
CAsual- normal: no champion
Hard: champions
Elite: champion do more dmg

Kindly don't tell me how to play the game.

Thank you.

Stoner81.

[PsychoBlonde]

Here's my Monster Champion feedback:

1. Make all monsters in hard/elite into Monster Champions
2. Reduce # of monsters in all quests by 2/3. :P

I've been on break lately so I haven't done much with the Champions, but I kind of like them. They're at least more interesting than the general run stuff. I'm not sure if just jamming them all willy-nilly into hard/elite quests is the way to go, though, esp. because I think that explorer areas and challenges is where the interesting aspect of Champions would REALLY shine.

Maybe instead of having champions be difficulty-dependent, just put a "crown mode" on quests/explores that lets you choose whether champions can spawn or not--and on any difficulty. This would be a lot easier than trying to fine-tune it. Just let people pick.

[Monkey-Boy]

Maybe instead of having champions be difficulty-dependent, just put a "crown mode" on quests/explores that lets you choose whether champions can spawn or not--and on any difficulty. This would be a lot easier than trying to fine-tune it. Just let people pick.

I don't think anyone would chose to have them, at least not until any of the awards for the champion droppings are actually worth it.

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't think anyone would chose to have them, at least not until any of the awards for the champion droppings are actually worth it.

I would, I like them. It'd be cool if each champion killed gave like 5 guild favor or 100 xp or something like that. I think it's definitely something that people should be able to choose or not choose, though, because it's pretty dang obvious that A LOT of people DON'T like them.

[Thrudh]

Tangleroot is a complete mess!!!!!

I have done the first 2 or so quests tonight and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly beyond dumb! Champions are supposed to be leaders of small groups of mobs therefore you shouldn't get 2+ Champions per mob it just doesn't make sense any other way. The attack animation which consists of the 3 very quick strikes can total upwards of 100HP or higher if they crit (which they do... a lot), characters at this level (level 5-6) just don't have the HP to deal with this amount of damage. The CR was either 11 or 12 (not exactly sure) in a level 6 quest on Elite for heavens sake!

Dealing with one Champion which deals a lot of damage is one thing but dealing with multiple Champions PLUS other mobs ALL AT THE SAME TIME is something else entirely and needs to be fixed please!!!

Stoner81.

Tangleroot is awesome again!

I just did the first 2 quests last night, and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly quite the challenge and a load of fun... My last past lives Tangleroot was just a speed run to get experience, rather boring since it was so easy... This time through, I had to move, and think about what I was doing instead of just running full speed at everything and killing every mob in 2 hits. I never even used to look at my health bar in there... but now I had to be careful.

Of course, I'm not always successful when dealing with champions... and that's why they are so great...

A guildie was running Freshen the Air on hard... I decided to break my elite streak and join him... and I ended up getting killed by a champion caster... and I think that was AWESOME... Just like the old days... Freshen the Air used to be a hard quest at level, and now it can be again... It was probably my own fault for getting ahead of the group...

Champions make this game so much better... Thank you for adding them, Turbine!