Monster Champion Feedback

[Keladon]

if you think you need to resort to a FOTM build because your current build cant handle Champions than its a player problem.

When multiple people advice me to reroll a different class, you know it's a build problem.

Like I said, thanks for helping me prove my point!

My build can't handle champions so I need to resort to a FOTM build.
Goodbye build diversity!

[slarden]

lol nice try, but I didn't support your point. if you think you need to resort to a FOTM build because your current build cant handle Champions than its a player problem. I was trying to show that even someone with a dozen past lives at best on any of my characters, all melee and Iconic ones, going through past lives with nothing more than random gear from chests and a few named items and without a lot of knowledge on the class that is not a min/max or FOTM build can handle them. you are proving over and over that you are unwilling to try to use more thought into defeating a new challenge.

You don't need a FOTM bulid just PRR/MRR - that is it. Harder hitting meatbags that can one shot you if you don't have enough PRR since they can completely bypass fortification.

You are overplaying the amount of skill involved.

[fmalfeas]

Here's a nice, simple build that is very, very effective in most content. So utterly simple that most people don't think of it.

Dwarf. Fighter 20. Enhancements focused in Vanguard with Stalwart support, and Dwarf racial (Dwarf Fortress!).

Massive, massive AC, very strong HP even without silly toughness feat stacking. Very high MRR and PRR with the tower shield that a dwarf fortress should be using. Dwarven Axe + Tower Shield in Vanguard with Improved Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash will give you much higher DPS than you'd suspect, and good stunning and knockdowns. (Don't forget the capstone!)

In heroic elite, you'll pretty close to be free to ignore almost everything. Including traps. You'll mitigate everything down so brutally you'll be astounded. Only Beholders and other level-drain spammers will be a serious threat. EE, on the other hand, I don't know. Haven't taken this utterly simple classic-D&D build in there yet.

[Keladon]

Here's a nice, simple build that is very, very effective in most content. So utterly simple that most people don't think of it.

Dwarf. Fighter 20. Enhancements focused in Vanguard with Stalwart support, and Dwarf racial (Dwarf Fortress!).

Massive, massive AC, very strong HP even without silly toughness feat stacking. Very high MRR and PRR with the tower shield that a dwarf fortress should be using. Dwarven Axe + Tower Shield in Vanguard with Improved Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash will give you much higher DPS than you'd suspect, and good stunning and knockdowns. (Don't forget the capstone!)

In heroic elite, you'll pretty close to be free to ignore almost everything. Including traps. You'll mitigate everything down so brutally you'll be astounded. Only Beholders and other level-drain spammers will be a serious threat. EE, on the other hand, I don't know. Haven't taken this utterly simple classic-D&D build in there yet.

Will try that for a fighter life, thanks!

It's just a shame that high PRR/MRR is a necessity now, it was supposed to make heavier armors better, not make them the only viable option.

[Qhualor]

You don't need a FOTM bulid just PRR/MRR - that is it. Harder hitting meatbags that can one shot you if you don't have enough PRR since they can completely bypass fortification.

You are overplaying the amount of skill involved.

that's what im trying to say. its Keladon that is saying he will be switching to a FOTM build, not me. you don't need FOTM and you don't need those kinds of builds to defeat Champions or EE.

I just did 6 rogue lives on 2 characters that had PRR that never topped higher than the 30's and dodge no higher than 15%. I did have blur GS/named item, ghostly and 1 displacement clicky. I was running EE all the time and did take on too much damage at times requiring more healing but never was one shot by any Champions, even disintegrating casters and beholders.

[Qhualor]

When multiple people advice me to reroll a different class, you know it's a build problem.

Like I said, thanks for helping me prove my point!

My build can't handle champions so I need to resort to a FOTM build.
Goodbye build diversity!

those people are wrong if they say to reroll. I have said and will always say skill and knowledge is greater than build.

you are being intentionally obtuse, but that's ok considering your unwillingness to try to be a better player.

[Keladon]

those people are wrong if they say to reroll. I have said and will always say skill and knowledge is greater than build.

you are being intentionally obtuse, but that's ok considering your unwillingness to try to be a better player.

Oh the irony.

Did you even look at a few of the previous posts?

[Sehenry03]

that's what im trying to say. its Keladon that is saying he will be switching to a FOTM build, not me. you don't need FOTM and you don't need those kinds of builds to defeat Champions or EE.

I just did 6 rogue lives on 2 characters that had PRR that never topped higher than the 30's and dodge no higher than 15%. I did have blur GS/named item, ghostly and 1 displacement clicky. I was running EE all the time and did take on too much damage at times requiring more healing but never was one shot by any Champions, even disintegrating casters and beholders.

The problem is people don't WANT to adapt. They WANT to be able to play a crippled build and use the "I like my flavor builds" argument. Flavor builds are meant for normal runs. Flavor builds have always been known as the "They are fun but won't work on elite" builds. The game has been so easy for the last few years that you could stop lvling at 12 and still finish HE content.

The game SHOULD be about Elite only for builds you actually BUILD for Elite content. Want to play a wizard? That's fine but you can take the adamantine body feat and make your life a lot easier on yourself and you are elite capable now with that one feat. Wizards are NOT feat starved it is easy to fit in. Rogues can still wear light armor and get PRR/MRR up to about 50 easy and reduce damage a LOT with just that.

Again I say Monks are the only ones truly hurt by champions simply because they are relegated to robes/outifts with very few options as far as PRR/MRR go. The thing is I have no sympathy because they were the ultimate splash class for how many years? Almost everyone took 2/6 levels of monk. And regardless of how a lot of people feel about pure monks...they were WAY OP for awhile. They had there moment in the sun and now its time to help some other classes. You can still build a VERY powerful Monk with a few splashes of other classes. They are still glass cannons but they put out some insane dps numbers...they just die fast on EE lol. Again I have no sympathy because they were insane for so long.

Personally I love the heavy armor system now. It gives tanks a chance to shine til they nerf it.

Champions though...they are the best system right now to balance dungeons. Still need to be buffed more but its a start.

But seriously if you think you have to play a paladin or fighter to get PRR you might want to go to Sarlona and type /joinchannel help and ask for ideas. Lots of people have champions figured out and aren't bothered by them much anymore. Someone in that channel can give you ideas on how to build a good class if you can't.

[Buddha5440]

The only issue I have had with champions since they came along was the initial spawn rate. Happening upon a room where 4 out of 7 mobs were champions on EH is not right and was all too common, for the first few days. Now that's fixed and I have no issues with them.

[Sehenry03]

The only issue I have had with champions since they came along was the initial spawn rate. Happening upon a room where 4 out of 7 mobs were champions on EH is not right and was all too common, for the first few days. Now that's fixed and I have no issues with them.

This is a very valid point and has been fixed for the most part. I would still say they should have some sort of limit to only allow 1 champion every so many mobs. The idea of champions implies they are tougher then normal so you should only have 1 in a group leading it. If you have 15 mobs appear have 1 MAYBE 2 in the whole group. If you are continuously running into 1 mob at a time then sure it could be a champion 1 after another.

And still...meatbags are still to common...and by common 1 in an entire dungeon is still to much. Had 3 ogres with 2 having 600hp's and the 3rd had 4500hp's PLUS every resistance

[MangLord]

Just running EH and HE over the past week, I still think the amount of champions are too common to be anything special. Overall, they don't seem to be much more difficult than a regular mob other than having a bunch more HP you have to chop through. I look at them as more of a gatekeeper mechanic than anything else. I tend to play a conquest/ransack style, and all they really do is add a bit more to my overall completion time, and make me cocoon myself a couple extra times.

With the producer's letter mentioning some sort of champion reward system in the future, what does the team have in mind? Will champions drop sacks like collectibles, or will the rewards only show up in champion chests? I would be inclined towards a dropping collectable, since some quests are very heavy on orange named enemies (Haunted Hall, for example), and I could see people exploiting that aspect (particularly the dragon fight where you can kite the dragon through the frozen mobs, have it break out all the encased enemies in the cavern, let them all kill each other and loot a dozen or more chests when you're done) to manipulate game mechanics. As it is now, regular mob champions are pretty dull and don't serve much of a purpose.

I'd like to see champion collectable turn-ins be fairly compelling. If potions are to be on the rewards list, I'd like to see some fairly interesting offerings. The eternal flasks from the anniversary cards are a great start. People like deathward, displacement, FoM and greater heroism. Caster level 10 seems appropriate if the price is reasonable. Players have been petitioning for a reasonable healing potion for quite a long time. This seems like a great opportunity to introduce it. Consumables should be inexpensive. There's no point if they're offered like eveningstar commendation pots. No one wants to spend days earning enough to make a small handful of potions that they can run through in several hours. The alchemical spellpower and damage pots from Commendations of Valor seem a touch pricey for 10 min of use. I trade them because I have nothing else to do with Valor Comms now that I have my TF weapon built and Heart Seeds are easy to earn. I usually take comms as a quest reward because I don't seem to get guild renown often until I'm near level cap, and I certainly don't need any more trash loot.
Some big ticket items would also be nice, like armor, shields and weapons. A leveled system would be ideal, similar to the festival events, where you could build lvl 4/8/12/16/20/24/28 versions for increasingly higher costs (or 5/10/15/20/25/30). I realize that too many weapons would be a coding nightmare, but you could take a similar approach to the Vault of the Artificers elemental weapons, where there was one elemental weapon to represent the core fighting styles (greataxe, khopesh, rapier, longbow). Say, a dagger, a greatsword, a tower shield and a heavy repeater (for variety), each having tiered versions that were pretty solid and all purpose, that any average player could potentially earn with the only investment being time. For me, killing hordes of champions to earn some special but useless companion critter is not compelling at all. Turning in 15000 champion tokens for a 10 min +2 profane or primal save boost clickie that I can use 3/rest certainly would be a goal to strive for.

[Ancient]

I still like champions. Most of my previous experience had been in epics, but I TR'd Sham into an iconic and played from 15-20... Still like champions. Maybe they have issues at the very low levels, but from 15 up to EE they are just fine.

[Stoner81]

Champions in their current state are a freaking nightmare in low level heroics, I ran the 3rd part of STK yesterday and there was a Large Earth Elemental who was CR11 (quest is level 6 on Elite) and had over 2,500 HP! The thing hit so hard is was beyond a joke and that is just one instance! I have run across 3-5 champions in the same room with other mobs plus bosses!

I propose the following:

1. Red and Orange named bosses can not become champions... ever!
2. If a aforementioned boss is in a room no other monsters can become champions.
3. Monster groups must consist of at least 4 monsters before a champ can spawn, if one does then it is the ONLY ONE!
4. Levels 1-10 (approx) need to have the HP cut down in half along with the damage they do.
5. Overall reduce spawn rates so every corner doesn't have a champion or a multitude thereof!

Stoner81.

[JOTMON]

1. Would like to see the examine window be able to be left up permanently instead of click. examine, lock...click examine, move window..lose targeting, re-examine., shift to next target,, re-examine...
This way I can target various mobs and have the examine window show their respective buffs without having to re-examine every mob everytime with the current sloppy examine mechanic..


2. I would like to see the ignore fortification option of champions be removed.
I can appreciate a fortification bypass, that is why We build to have more than 100%..
What is the point of building 278% fortification when a champion can just come along and ignore it completely and crit tag your for 1k+ damage... effectively an insta-kill.
It makes tanking ineffective vs the kiting pewpewers and the keep-a-way dotter casters.
.. it becomes.. I can tank unless there is a champion in the trash mob group in which case I will be running around in circles trying to figure out whether or not the champion has ignore fort buff before I stop to tank and hold aggro.

[psykopeta]

i called the file lovely.jpeg

1st time i see that nice combo, TS, fort bypass (that means all fort = 0) and extra damage

yay!! moar moar!! in fact all champs should be that way, would be much better than having random npc(like statues in rainbow in the dark, i mean those that never become active) being champion

[KitsuneHonor]

My issue with "Champion Mobs" has nothing to do with the damage they do, or death-block or anything like that. My issue is the effect it is having on player options. Dungeons and Dragons, at its core, has been and should always be freedom of choice to play how you want. As an MMO, half of the fun of the table top game was taken from us, the gamer. This half was being the DM. Creating a story enriched environment in which to engross our players and have them adventure in. This was not a bad thing. Over several years this amazing world of fantasy has evolved around me and I have been a part of it. However, with the addition of champion mobs, you are changing the game for your players. Forcing us to either accept that we have to party, or to play on normal.

I'm not disagreeing that people that cant hack higher difficulty should play on what is appropriate for them. But, with Bravery Bonus incentive, Favor always playing a part in what content a player has, be it Drow, 32 point build, an extra bag slot, or buffs, not to mention the DDO points, players are already NATURALLY drawn to higher difficulties by mechanics that YOU have set up. A good DM leaves incentives like these in their world to lure players to the content they want them to find, but leaving them the freedom to chose what they want to do. This however, is luring players into a death trap.

You are making a game, and I understand the need to appeal to your dedicated audience. However, you hold a brand name in your hands that has embodied freedom of choice for years. Do not stray from that theme, and I think you will do fine. You have so far.

[Robbenklopper]

What´s in there to loot from the Champions´ chests anyway? I didn´t see anything worth picking up at all, mostly like regular chests. You can better stop with those chest-drops, it´s just for personal Frustration in my eyes, only boring underaverage stuff, sorry.

[horriblescarz]

woah nelly.... woaaah.

I LUV THE CHAMPS. MAKE MORE SPAWN. MAKE THEM TOUGHER. MAKE THEM HIT HARDER. MAKE MORE RED NAMED CHAMPS SPWAN. INCREASE THE CHEST DROP RATE.

ik i am rlly luvin the champs and the current spawn rates in eh and ee content, i cant say much for heroics though b/c epic is more fun for me than heroics. my only complaints i sthe poor chest drop rates and that in some quests the chests will spawn in the air (haunted halls) or in the ground (devils assault). if these UN-accessable chests could somehow always spawn on the ground i would be happier with them.

i was getting bored of end game, running epl's on ee with garb gear conquesting speed runs and never needing heals on my gimpy heavy repeater pure rog (drow for xtra gimpyness fun . most ppls play ranged builds at range.. no no no, not my gimpy hate machine. tbh the build is a abomination with modest gear but it does more with its 1 heroic life and 6 epls than some completionists i have had the misfortune to run with. (i assume these fail completionists are the gripers saying 'the champsd are to much this or that' but what they are really saying is 'CHAMPS HURT MY XP/MIN'.

a few xtra hps to knock off is not a big thing imho. i would like to see a more agressive ai from them and i would like to see more dr on them also. srsly guys if a gimp drow with a repeater and no heroic pl's can drop a ee champ with a few shots it is not tough enough.

the new champ system is holdinh my attention for now but if they get nerfed and start hitting liek normal mobs then what is the point of them in the game at all?? just add more trash mobs for the same efect.

ppls with no tactics will always say this or that is to hard.. ppls with tactics will say give us more pain.

imho if players find the champs in hh/he/eh/ee to much to handle they should examine their use of tactics, gear and their build.

PLS DO NOT NERF THE CHAMPS, MAKE THEM TOUGHER AND MORE RESILIENT. WHEN MY GIMPY ROG KILLS THEM WITH A FEW BOLTS ITS JUST A JOKE WITH MORE LOOT AND NO CHALLENGE

sincearly HoribleScarz of cannith aka Jillad (the bad)

(no spell check fail in the above just a unwillingness to care ' bout gooder engrish

[phillymiket]

"Monster Champions no longer spawn in quests below level 5. Quests which are level 3 on Normal would not have Champions on Hard, but would on Elite, since Elite difficulty would bring the quest level to 5."

Awesome news!

I think this is the way to go.

I now totally Flip-Flop and am in support of Champions 100%.

Furthermore I am putting down my rocks and poo-balls and I am officially hopping back on the the DDO cheerleader bandwagon.

[Bladebolt]

OK, I don't know if this happened to anyone else but it is quite funny!

Yesterday as I was experimenting on a built running EE end of the road, after I killed a Champion it started raining tasty hams!
I got about 40 of them....

If it's a bug it is one of the funniest!