Monster Champion Feedback

[Zillee]

I am a player that has 6 accounts, me, my wife, and 4 kids. from this last update my kids have stopped playing because its not fun. i have always refused to play anything but elite because i hate playing same dungeon like 10 times in a row to raise levels. Bravery Bonus keeps me from replaying dungeons. my kids don't like playing with me because they don't like being soul stones and pulled around to shrines. I won't break my BB like so many others.

They used their Christmas funds to pay for a years time on elder scrolls online. Just in my relatives that stopped playing because your latest updates of lets make it more difficult for the top 10%, is 7 people. All of who spend money every month.

Brilliant move catering to the 10%.

I am frustrated because I am to strong for normal to play with kids they just run through very luck to kill something because im 1-2 hit killing things, or they are in my back pack as soul stones in elites. before update elite was still easy for me but the kids got big kicks out of kill count because most of the time i slowed down just slow enough for them to get the last killing blow in, or i went from monster 1 hit them a few times went to monster 2 hit a few times went to monster 3 and so on so the kids always had the killing blows.

I use to play 2 quests a night every night. their 9th life TR toons going to just sit there now and by the way their ages are 5, 6, 8, and 10.

As for me and my monthly spending,I will probably be signing off also and switching games to follow suit after my kids

great job making the game for ubers.

This is perhaps the saddest thing I've ever read. Your poor children ... you seriously couldn't make a toon just for playing with them at a level (normal perhaps?) where they might do something more than cheer dad on from his backpack?

[LevelJ]

Ran a quest the other day with a water elemental champion who happened to end up with the vulnerable debuff. Yikes...before the group got a single hit off, the entire party had 20 stacks of Vulnerable each (over the course of 2-3 seconds). I am seriously not kidding. If I had to guess the culprit, I'd pin the blame on the water elemental's cold debuff aura which refreshes repeatedly. Fortunately for our group the elemental didn't get a chance to get a shot off, but it seems to me that Vulnerable needs a cooldown to keep from applying stacks so fast, or be adjusted so that auras like that don't proc it.

Other than that, champions have been fine for me recently. Challenging, yes...I particularly dislike second wind, but I'm not going to complain about a challenge on elite.


-Jayron

[MangLord]

I ran HE LoD chain with some friends today and Spinner of Shadows was chock full of 10k hp trash Hezrou champions that would not stop respawning. One of them happened to have the nasty extra damage boost when he dropped below 50% health or so, and that was a near wipe. Not a lot of fun without epic destinies to help you out. If we weren't all very experienced players who run with each other a lot, I imagine the quest would have been undoable at level.

The vulnerability stackage doesn't seem to stack more than 3-4 times anymore, but it's incredibly frightening when you get stacks and have to deal with 7-8 enemies all benefitting from the effect, especially as a cleaving melee guy in heavy armor. Having bad luck and getting vulnerable stacks from one champion while another is benefitting from 2nd Wind is really hard to deal with, even with 500+hp and a reconstruct SLA.

The hezrou were always pretty rough on elite without champions. I feel sorry for newer players that walk into Spinner without a few past lives, gear and optimal builds. It was really tough, even with a couple KoTC paladins and a dedicated healer in the party.

[Jahamar1]

I quit playing Diablo 2 because of Champions, but i'm willing to compromise.
Let's say we don't introduce them until level 12 dungeons.

Just because 1% of the populous are elite and have maxed out their toons doesn't mean that the other 99% has or does that. I don't play this game with min/max in mind. I don't think it's fair to assume that EVERYONE plays the same build to SOLO EVERYTHING. Elite content is hard enough for the average player (average making up the majority of the clientele base). Most elitist only think about themselves and only hang out with other ppl who only think about themselves.

I like to theory craft different builds and be able to play them. I'm not on this forum looking for the latest ultimate build to be godlike and then complain the content is too easy for my godliness. I also don't have all the latest and greatest gear. I'm not working towards that either. I don't even have a completionist yet. I want to enjoy the game while making one. I've only been playing this game for 3 years and i am still catching up with gear and trying out different builds. I like playing on elite cause it's challenging just enough for me to enjoy the content. I love TR'ing and ER'ing, but I can't get a toon to 20 in 3 days. It takes me 3 weeks to get to 28 and i like that.

I, for one, find the content sufficiently challenging on elite. Some of it is even ridiculous but it's fine. The Champions are making my play experience, in a game that i love, disheartening and i find myself not wanting to play.

If i wanted champions in my gameplay, i'd go back to diablo 2. Getting one shotted by a champion isn't a challenge. Getting mobbed by 3 champions makes me want to quit.


A better solution to the ppl who complain the content is too easy should have ramped up dungeons just for them ...there is no better gear, just bragging rights, a better score card. Maybe make these dungeons ramp in difficulty as time goes on and make it so they can't invis to the end to complete the quest...the content of the dungeon has to be completed against very resilient mobs by the time the player(s) reach the end. Also make it more of a WoW style dungeon where the grp needs a balanced team so it cannot be soloed. The rules could also not allow ship buffs, but the toons have to survive on their own merit. Also put traps in the dungeons that HAVE to be disabled or a no save blast kills the grp entirely no matter where in the dungeon they are. Don't make the trap dc's ridiculous, just make it so there has to be a trapsmith in the grp.

[fmalfeas]

I ran HE LoD chain with some friends today and Spinner of Shadows was chock full of 10k hp trash Hezrou champions that would not stop respawning. One of them happened to have the nasty extra damage boost when he dropped below 50% health or so, and that was a near wipe. Not a lot of fun without epic destinies to help you out. If we weren't all very experienced players who run with each other a lot, I imagine the quest would have been undoable at level.

The vulnerability stackage doesn't seem to stack more than 3-4 times anymore, but it's incredibly frightening when you get stacks and have to deal with 7-8 enemies all benefitting from the effect, especially as a cleaving melee guy in heavy armor. Having bad luck and getting vulnerable stacks from one champion while another is benefitting from 2nd Wind is really hard to deal with, even with 500+hp and a reconstruct SLA.

The hezrou were always pretty rough on elite without champions. I feel sorry for newer players that walk into Spinner without a few past lives, gear and optimal builds. It was really tough, even with a couple KoTC paladins and a dedicated healer in the party.

Wait, wait. You're saying that due to champions, the quest on Elite became a thing for a group of highly experienced players? Just like it says on the description of elite? And you're complaining?

[Jahamar1]

Wait, wait. You're saying that due to champions, the quest on Elite became a thing for a group of highly experienced players? Just like it says on the description of elite? And you're complaining?

No what he is saying is it was difficult enough on elite and now it's stupid silly with champions. What he is also saying is the game has become only playable with optimum characters and and is not a game for everyone now.

[slarden]

No what he is saying is it was difficult enough on elite and now it's stupid silly with champions. What he is also saying is the game has become only playable with optimum characters and and is not a game for everyone now.

You don't need an optimum character. Champions are two-trick ponies

1) lots of hp
2) high melee crit damage potential since they ignore fortification entirely

I changed my shiradi caster from a 14 wizard / 4 fvs / 2 monk with evasion and high dodge (which in my opinion was the optimal split after trying them all) to a wizard 18 / fvs 2 with adamantine body. This reduces my physical damage by over 50% and my magical damage by 40%. 16/4 is also a good split as you get one more chain missle out of it, but you lose the energy drain, power word kill and meteor swarm which are useful against champs (or champ mobs in case of meteor swarm).

Energy drain works good on champs that aren't deathwarded. Some champs have deathblock but not deathward - I saw this several times with my PM. Finger didn't work, but energy drain did. So Power Word kill is less useful.

Evasion is so 2014.

I never got one-hit since I respec'd to deal with one-shot metagame, but I did die once in Inferno (High Lords run on Sarlona - one of the top guilds) where the crowned Cinderspawn knocked me down and hit me for 300+ 4 straight times (600 before DR). The party had about 30 deaths total - mostly from champs and probably half from the cinderspawn. There wans't a dedicated healer which might have kept us alive.

Ironically the orange named crowned cinderspawn were brutal, but the end boss wasn't at all.

[Keladon]

You don't need an optimum character. Champions are two-trick ponies

1) lots of hp
2) high melee crit damage potential since they ignore fortification entirely

I changed my shiradi caster from a 14 wizard / 4 fvs / 2 monk with evasion and high dodge (which in my opinion was the optimal split after trying them all) to a wizard 18 / fvs 2 with adamantine body. This reduces my physical damage by over 50% and my magical damage by 40%. 16/4 is also a good split as you get one more chain missle out of it, but you lose the energy drain, otto's irresistable and meteor swarm which are useful against champs (or champ mobs in case of meteor swarm).

Otto's irresistable and energy drain work good on champs that aren't deathwarded. Some champs have deathblock but not deathward - I saw this several times with my PM. Finger didn't work, but energy drain did.

Evasion is so 2014.

I never got one-hit since I respec'd to deal with one-shot metagame, but I did die once in Inferno (High Lords run on Sarlona - one of the top guilds) where the crowned Cinderspawn knocked me down and hit me for 300+ 4 straight times (600 before DR). The party had about 30 deaths total - mostly from champs and probably half from the cinderspawn. There wans't a dedicated healer which might have kept us alive.

Ironically the orange named crowned cinderspawn were brutal, but the end boss wasn't at all.

So you don't need an optimum character but you do need to respec to be able to handle champions? Great for build diversity.

The fact that you call it a "one-shot metagame" says enough. Is this really what people want?

Same for the fact that you can go "at least the end boss will be easy".. I mean.. really?

It's like someone said when I told about one of my 1shot experiences... roll a paladin. Hey, it's a solution! It's just not the solution I want to see and I think that doesn't only apply to me.

[slarden]

So you don't need an optimum character but you do need to respec to be able to handle champions? Great for build diversity.

The fact that you call it a "one-shot metagame" says enough. Is this really what people want?

Same for the fact that you can go "at least the end boss will be easy".. I mean.. really?

It's like someone said when I told about one of my 1shot experiences... roll a paladin. Hey, it's a solution! It's just not the solution I want to see and I think that doesn't only apply to me.

Roll with punches and adapt. The devs might make some tweaks, but this is someone's pet project and devs have the same weakness to view feedback and facts to support their beliefs just like players do. In the end they will likely determine their champion idea was a good one and they will conclude their data and forum feedback supports that conclusion. Trust me on that.

It will take a lot of work to fix the problems with champions and we all see how things work. They will make a global adjustment up and down and then leave it as is and move on to the next project. So power gamers will be mad about 25% damage adjustment down and others will be mad champs exist at all. Most won't care at all. Oh well, win some lose some.

[Sehenry03]

Wait, wait. You're saying that due to champions, the quest on Elite became a thing for a group of highly experienced players? Just like it says on the description of elite? And you're complaining?

Plz don't try to use logic...you will simply confuse everyone who thinks they are entitled to run Elite on non-geared / flavor builds.

I am so...shocked...to find the amount of people who think they should be able to run Elite with ANY build using ANY gear simply because they feel they are entitled to get the favor without gearing for it. Shocked really doesn't even go far enough really.

Also the argument "this is how people are conditioned and they expect this" is also shocking. So a game has been easier then it should and it suddenly gets fixed to how it should have been the entire time and people complain that they can't run elite now?

I get champions ****ing people off for various reasons but dang people get off the Elite should be for everyone argument =(

And lets thank Sev for stating in his producers letter that they intend on keeping champions and that they plan on adding stuff for them. And again no mention of a check box =) Now lets just toughen them back up again...

[Sehenry03]

So you don't need an optimum character but you do need to respec to be able to handle champions? Great for build diversity.

Elite should ALWAYS need optimal gear/build to be able to succeed. So yes...if you want to run Elite then get the best gear and build your character to survive. Right monks are the only class I see having issues with Champions. Every other class can build around it. Skilled players still do well on monks but a newer player playing one is gonna get flattened.

[Keladon]

Roll with punches and adapt. The devs might make some tweaks, but this is someone's pet project and devs have the same weakness to view feedback and facts to support their beliefs just like players do. In the end they will likely determine their champion idea was a good one and they will conclude their data and forum feedback supports that conclusion. Trust me on that.

It will take a lot of work to fix the problems with champions and we all see how things work. They will make a global adjustment up and down and then leave it as is and move on to the next project. So power gamers will be mad about 25% damage adjustment down and others will be mad champs exist at all. Oh well, win some lose some.

I hope that won't happen but I'm afraid it will.

The only issue I have is that it's win a tiny bit, lose a lot. But I still have +20 heart and there's probably a fotm build out there that somewhat fits my playstyle.

If this means I have to stop making fun and quirky builds, I guess that's just how it is.

Elite should ALWAYS need optimal gear/build to be able to succeed. So yes...if you want to run Elite then get the best gear and build your character to survive. Right monks are the only class I see having issues with Champions. Every other class can build around it. Skilled players still do well on monks but a newer player playing one is gonna get flattened.

We had too many viable builds, it wasn't acceptable. I don't understand why it wasn't, but I'll deal with it.
Like I said, I'll just copy a fotm build. No need to keep preaching the same thing over & over again.

[slarden]

Elite should ALWAYS need optimal gear/build to be able to succeed. So yes...if you want to run Elite then get the best gear and build your character to survive. Right monks are the only class I see having issues with Champions. Every other class can build around it. Skilled players still do well on monks but a newer player playing one is gonna get flattened.

My only answer for rogue is past lifes and the party having rez scrolls. Although sneaking up and assassinating champs works good if they don't have deathblock or deathward. I won't bring my 800 hp rogue into higher level EEs.

My PM and bard are using medium armor now. My shiradi caster is using adamantine body. It makes a difference.

[slarden]

I hope that won't happen but I'm afraid it will.

The only issue I have is that it's win a tiny bit, lose a lot. But I still have +20 heart and there's probably a fotm build out there that somewhat fits my playstyle.

If this means I have to stop making fun and quirky builds, I guess that's just how it is.

The tree build looks fun. Whirlwind and one-shot every enemy around you

Focus on your new build rather than fighting champions for sure.

[Zargonia]

As a player that rarely visits the forums and just doesn't do the kind of research in a video game that many of the other DDO players seem to, I find the existence of Champions to be unbalanced for one reason: they make quest times take longer without providing an adequate reward. Whether the time needed to overcome Champions is spent gathering efficient gear, reading up on strategies and character designs, or just bashing the same monster over and over, if the game is going to take longer to get to the same places than some kind of compensation needs to be in place -- and a random chest drop just doesn't do it.

The solution seems obvious; give an XP reward for Champions. I'm not nearly smart enough to create an equation for this, but if "Red Name" monsters come with XP rewards, then a randomly generated Champion that takes far more effort to defeat should do the same. After all, shouldn't a player's time be a rewarding experience?

[Qhualor]

I hope that won't happen but I'm afraid it will.

The only issue I have is that it's win a tiny bit, lose a lot. But I still have +20 heart and there's probably a fotm build out there that somewhat fits my playstyle.

If this means I have to stop making fun and quirky builds, I guess that's just how it is.



We had too many viable builds, it wasn't acceptable. I don't understand why it wasn't, but I'll deal with it.
Like I said, I'll just copy a fotm build. No need to keep preaching the same thing over & over again.

It sounds more like the player than the build to be honest. I have been on a reincarnation grind on all my characters for 3 years a lot of times in off destinies and not the best gear or knowledge of the class. I don't play FOTM, min/max or ride coattails and I don't have most of the problems you have been having.

[Keladon]

It sounds more like the player than the build to be honest. I have been on a reincarnation grind on all my characters for 3 years a lot of times in off destinies and not the best gear or knowledge of the class. I don't play FOTM, min/max or ride coattails and I don't have most of the problems you have been having.

Because you know.. we've had champions for 3 years now.

I didn't use to have any of these problems either.

The tree build looks fun. Whirlwind and one-shot every enemy around you

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Qhualor]

Because you know.. we've had champions for 3 years now.

I didn't use to have any of these problems either.

I was including Champions which have been around for a few weeks now.

[Keladon]

I was including Champions which have been around for a few weeks now.

So what you're saying is that someone with a bunch of past lives doing a reincarnation grind for 3 years now is still able to run elite without the mentioned issues.
What about everyone else?
Thanks for supporting the point I'm trying to make!

[Qhualor]

So what you're saying is that someone with a bunch of past lives doing a reincarnation grind for 3 years now is still able to run elite without the mentioned issues.
What about everyone else?
Thanks for supporting the point I'm trying to make!

lol nice try, but I didn't support your point. if you think you need to resort to a FOTM build because your current build cant handle Champions than its a player problem. I was trying to show that even someone with a dozen past lives at best on any of my characters, all melee and Iconic ones, going through past lives with nothing more than random gear from chests and a few named items and without a lot of knowledge on the class that is not a min/max or FOTM build can handle them. you are proving over and over that you are unwilling to try to use more thought into defeating a new challenge.