Monster Champion Feedback

[Impaqt]

The devs stated Terminal Delreium is considered an extreme challenge and working as intended. It's no coincidence I never see lfms for that quest.

Joined a EE Terminal Delerium LFM Wednesday night. A few strong vets and a couple newer players.

I think we had over 50 deaths between us all. But we figured it out and we got through it. Kinda reminded me of doing Crucible for the first time. Except we were able to get raised instead of having to recall out and come back.


I'm not looking forward to another EE run..... But I'm glad I did it.

[slarden]

And you are welcome to that opinion.

Its not about that particular champion being "challenging" or not. Its about the elevation in overall quest risk.

DDO's been about metagaming since its inception. Kinda by design since quest repetition is part of the gameplay.

The overall quest risk doesn't change in the long run. It just makes some builds suboptimal for soloing and less desirable in general and makes other builds more desirable. It's more of the same - the respec treadmill - and then we will be back to where we were previously with the usual forum whining.

DDO isn't about metagaming and shouldn't be.

[Qhualor]

The overall quest risk doesn't change in the long run. It just makes some builds suboptimal for soloing and less desirable in general and makes other builds more desirable. It's more of the same - the respec treadmill - and then we will be back to where we were previously with the usual forum whining.

DDO isn't about metagaming and shouldn't be.

what builds are suboptimal for soloing? if you are looking at it on a class by class basis, some are tougher than others. if you look at it from player to player that has knowledge and skill than any build is capable of soloing. in general, people in this game have always gravitated towards jack of all trades builds. history has shown that pre-MOTU casters were the superior class soloing epics, but they had difficulties with bosses. most melees struggled soloing the entire quest. epic Gianthold came out and Monkchers and Shiradi casters or ranged dps was considered more superior than melees going toe to toe. how the game changes depends on which direction players in general feel the easier route is based on how strong the classes/builds are.

you cant help but metagame DDO. theres not much randomness in this game. eventually you learn more and more about the game and use what you know to make questing smoother/easier.

[Impaqt]

The overall quest risk doesn't change in the long run. It just makes some builds suboptimal for soloing and less desirable in general and makes other builds more desirable. It's more of the same - the respec treadmill - and then we will be back to where we were previously with the usual forum whining.

yes. some builds are better at soloing than others. this is not a new thing.

Champions have made soloing Elite significantly more difficult. They have made groups more important. Grouping is becoming the way to get quests done faster. Imagine that.... More people = Better chance of success and faster completion. That sounds awesome to me.

DDO isn't about metagaming and shouldn't be.

o.O

Of course it is. How could it not be? one cannot just turn off knowledge of a quest after you've done it.

what you do with that knowledge can vary from player to player.... but once you know what is around the next corner.. you play differently. thats metagaming.

Some people thing they need an easy button so they design builds to take advantage of flaws in the systems. good for them. they take metagaming to another level... I believe that is the exception rather than the rule though.

[slarden]

yes. some builds are better at soloing than others. this is not a new thing.

Champions have made soloing Elite significantly more difficult. They have made groups more important. Grouping is becoming the way to get quests done faster. Imagine that.... More people = Better chance of success and faster completion. That sounds awesome to me.



o.O

Of course it is. How could it not be? one cannot just turn off knowledge of a quest after you've done it.

what you do with that knowledge can vary from player to player.... but once you know what is around the next corner.. you play differently. thats metagaming.

Some people thing they need an easy button so they design builds to take advantage of flaws in the systems. good for them. they take metagaming to another level... I believe that is the exception rather than the rule though.

The whole "grouping" argument is kind of funny. One thing I learned for sure - don't let random people into your party on EE with champs because if they aggro too many champion mobs you have a chance to be one-shot. It's better to short man. It reminds me alot of FOT. FOT EE is easier with 3 than 12 because of the randomness the extra 9 PUGs introduce.

[Rys]

The whole "grouping" argument is kind of funny. One thing I learned for sure - don't let random people into your party on EE with champs because if they aggro too many champion mobs you have a chance to be one-shot. It's better to short man. It reminds me alot of FOT. FOT EE is easier with 3 than 12 because of the randomness the extra 9 PUGs introduce.

100% agree on this. The champions brought different things into the game but 'the need' of grouping isn't one of them for sure.

[JOTMON]

The devs stated Terminal Delreium is considered an extreme challenge and working as intended. It's no coincidence I never see lfms for that quest.

Xtreme Challenge should=Extreme loot.

Terminal Delerious loot is inferior for the difficulty/level it is supposed to represent. unfortunately this means =run 1 and done (for favor).
~screwed clerics with no Insightful wisom+4 item.

[Sehenry03]

I (and the rest of the group) was one shot 11 times in a single quest (terminal delirium on eh behind the mirror). Class and armor dont really matter since the damage ranged from 2k to 4k. Most combination dont survive that.

I guess I should have mentioned EXTREME quests don't count. DDO expects you to die often and in horrible ways. You were suppose to be 1 shotted even without champions so any example OTHER then extreme challenge dungeons would be great.

So we have 1 person that gets 1 shotted every great once in awhile and is annoyed by it...and another person who was 1 shotted in extreme dungeons( go figure).

That's it? Out of ALL the complaints about how champions 1 shot all the time we get 2 people with examples??? Doesn't seem nearly as overblown as people make it out to be. And if you aren't 1 shotted every quest don't jump on the bandwagon and talk about how horrible it is. You can get 1 shotted in various ways so the fact a champion might 1 shot you every 10000+ hits seems fair to me.

Personally I am waiting to see the flash of white surround a champion after he kills someone...I REALLY wanna see them level in quests =)

[MisterCanoeHead]

I guess I should have mentioned EXTREME quests don't count. DDO expects you to die often and in horrible ways. You were suppose to be 1 shotted even without champions so any example OTHER then extreme challenge dungeons would be great.

So we have 1 person that gets 1 shotted every great once in awhile and is annoyed by it...and another person who was 1 shotted in extreme dungeons( go figure).

That's it? Out of ALL the complaints about how champions 1 shot all the time we get 2 people with examples??? Doesn't seem nearly as overblown as people make it out to be. And if you aren't 1 shotted every quest don't jump on the bandwagon and talk about how horrible it is. You can get 1 shotted in various ways so the fact a champion might 1 shot you every 10000+ hits seems fair to me.

Personally I am waiting to see the flash of white surround a champion after he kills someone...I REALLY wanna see them level in quests =)

Maybe there are just a lot of people that either ignore your moronic request or don't care anymore.

[slarden]

I guess I should have mentioned EXTREME quests don't count. DDO expects you to die often and in horrible ways. You were suppose to be 1 shotted even without champions so any example OTHER then extreme challenge dungeons would be great.

So we have 1 person that gets 1 shotted every great once in awhile and is annoyed by it...and another person who was 1 shotted in extreme dungeons( go figure).

That's it? Out of ALL the complaints about how champions 1 shot all the time we get 2 people with examples??? Doesn't seem nearly as overblown as people make it out to be. And if you aren't 1 shotted every quest don't jump on the bandwagon and talk about how horrible it is. You can get 1 shotted in various ways so the fact a champion might 1 shot you every 10000+ hits seems fair to me.

Personally I am waiting to see the flash of white surround a champion after he kills someone...I REALLY wanna see them level in quests =)

There might be confusion on this topic. The devs specifically asked for feedback on this topic and already stated one-shotting outside of extreme challenges should not be occurring. You might have missed some of the other examples of one-shotting in thread because I've seen several.

Correct. Reports of non-extreme challenge quests "one shotting" players are concerning and we are looking into them, so specifics would be great. We can also adjust champion damage output dividing my melee, ranged, and spell so if spells (as an example) are too severe we can adjust that separately.

Sev~

I believe the one-shotting is caused by a combination of complete fortification bypass + damage boost and critical multipler resulting in a mega-crit (by monster standards). The only mitigation is PRR which makes it especially tough for casters. For example if I slot adamantine body in my caster I reduce the 1600 or so damage to less than 800 and won't get one-shot, but I don't think making PRR so prominent is the right way to add challenge to the game.

The good news is the devs indicated they are collecting in-game data on one-shotting so it should be very easy to verify the issue. In my case I only experience one-shotting in level 26+ quests about once in 4 quests. In lower level epics I never saw those type of damage numbers.

[Qhualor]

The whole "grouping" argument is kind of funny. One thing I learned for sure - don't let random people into your party on EE with champs because if they aggro too many champion mobs you have a chance to be one-shot. It's better to short man. It reminds me alot of FOT. FOT EE is easier with 3 than 12 because of the randomness the extra 9 PUGs introduce.

I haven't seen more than 3 Champions in a mob since the changes. I could see in certain quests where there is massive mob spawns at once having more though, but those are typically the quests that have always had immediate DA.

ive been pugging EE across a variety of quests and don't see where random players are any worse or better than before Champions. im seeing most going after Champions before the regular mobs to take them out as quickly as possible. these one shotting Champions I still have not come across yet. one shotting regular mobs I have come across since 2009 though.

[slarden]

Maybe there are just a lot of people that either ignore your moronic request or don't care anymore.

The request is reasonable, but it's redundant with a developer request.

If people aren't comfortable reporting the issues here they should bug report it. The good news is the devs indicated they are collecting in-game data which is more reliable than forum opinions.

[Sehenry03]

Maybe there are just a lot of people that either ignore your moronic request or don't care anymore.

Or its not happening NEARLY as often as people THINK it happens. My GUESS is that most people complaining about being 1 shotted are just lemmings and are complaining about it because they READ it somewhere.

I don't CARE about being 1 shotted. It is SO rare it means nothing to me. I am not an overgeared elitist with awesome skills...I just gear for a few levels then start using what I find. I do know the game well. I group with players all the time.

I want the champions back to what they were day one.

my point is if YOU want these issues then state WHERE it happens. Yes I have read the threads and most posts about being 1 shotted are just whiny players who actually got hit 20 times in a row and died then complain because they died. They want to be able to easy mode zerg through the game knowing every mob that's about to happen so they have no chance of dying. I was trying to get people to submit for feedback into this then just "I died I am rage quitting!!!!" and blame it on **** they should have been a little more prepared for.

Yes I would totally agree 1 shotting is from fort bypass + dps increase mobs. But WHERE? Some people have done very good feedback but a majority are just players repeating what they hear not actually experiencing a lot of this.

Personally I hope all of you get the same attitude as Mistercanoehead as it will mean all you do is spout "Champions suck" without doing anything about it. Don't sit there and say you gave up already they are only a FEW WEEKS OLD. They already nerfed them into the ground now you "gave up" because they aren't the same as normal mobs?

How many are actually submitting in game when possible? Again I know some but I wonder how many just come here to complain and aren't actually doing anything about it because you "gave up" already.

Oh and if you "don't care" then stop coming to the boards and let the rest of the people here actually submitting feedback try to flesh out the champions.

And to the player who PM'ed me asking "Who put me in charge?" I have 3 posts in 3 different parts of the forums offering to help ANY AND ALL new players OR vet's having issues with anything in the game including champions. I have helped 5 newer players all from lvl 1-mid teens with my TR's. My guild on Sarlona has a raid EVERY Saturday now just to teach anyone who needs...old or new...how to raid. We will be doing 1 raid every Saturday and I am currently helping 2 people get flagged for the first raid which is the Shroud. I in no way think I am in charge. I have posted every time its my opinion and what I would like to see. I go WAY over board helping new and old players get leveled and geared for things. I spend a LOT of my time helping people get raid flagged when I already am. I help them get all the basics down like pots or scrolls or prereqs and explain what will happen in the upcoming raid. But mainly I am trying to help people figure out how to beat the champions instead of whine that they are so OP they 1 shot me every 2 seconds.

So my post above was an attempt to get people to actually state when and where it happened so dev's can see how often it is happening rather then just seeing 10 posts saying "I died in 1 hit" when in fact that wasn't the case. Lucky for me I get to see this from a new players perspective in that I have grouped with 5-6 new to newer players and I get to see firsthand how they deal with champions.

[Sehenry03]

The request is reasonable, but it's redundant with a developer request.

If people aren't comfortable reporting the issues here they should bug report it. The good news is the devs indicated they are collecting in-game data which is more reliable than forum opinions.

My problem is I can't bug report in game as the window never loads for me. The forums are my only way to report bugs so I do it here. Plus the dev's started the thread specifically asking for feedback here and have repeatedly said they read this thread for this info.

now if they are still reading who knows but they were originally =)

[Impaqt]

The whole "grouping" argument is kind of funny. One thing I learned for sure - don't let random people into your party on EE with champs because if they aggro too many champion mobs you have a chance to be one-shot. It's better to short man. It reminds me alot of FOT. FOT EE is easier with 3 than 12 because of the randomness the extra 9 PUGs introduce.

100% agree on this. The champions brought different things into the game but 'the need' of grouping isn't one of them for sure.

All I can say to that is that my experience on Thelanis has been awesome. maybe we just have better players overall?

[Sehenry03]

All I can say to that is that my experience on Thelanis has been awesome. maybe we just have better players overall?

Sarlona has been awesome for grouping lately. While leveling my TR's I will put up a group saying "Lvl 6 quests - Elite" and it fills within minutes now...and I do this for all levels from 1-20 and have no issues with people joining the group. I see a LOT of newer players and I know they are simply by seeing the HP's. Lots of people...and I mean LOTS with really low HP's. No wonder people are being 1 shotted. I spend most of the leveling time explaining about HP's and feats to take to help or gear to get to help...they usually double the HP's by the time we are done grouping.

Literally though after posting an LFM within 5 minutes I already have 3-4 people clicking to join

[Vulkoorex]

I've been seeing far less LFMs on Wayfinder. Some days nothing where before there be at least 1-2 LFMs when I log on.

[Wizza]

All I can say to that is that my experience on Thelanis has been awesome. maybe we just have better players overall?

Maybe not. It's not really our fault if you have pink glasses on.

Besides, why would "better players" have anything to do with grouping? Your reply makes no sense.

[Sehenry03]

I don't even look for LFM's...when I look at that social screen it is ALL screwed up. Can't see names or how many are already in the group or anything.

[phillymiket]

Maybe not. It's not really our fault if you have pink glasses on.

Pink glasses won't save you.



(Wow - even I am shocked at how cruel and heartless it is to joke at real pain.
I stand here staring at the "submit reply" button. Do I hit it and post?
Oh that's right, I have no soul. <click> Sorry Bono - get well soon.)