Monster Champion Feedback

[SirValentine]

After considering this proposition for two seconds it became obvious that players beginning the game with no real sense of how much they like the game and whether playing hard or elite quests on Korthos is desirable are f2p. F2p players just starting out on Korthos don't have access to hard and elite quests.

You're claiming to be busting myths, but somehow it's "obvious" that all new players on Korthos are F2P? And only run Normal? Pure myth that all are F2P, and even for those that are, you think they never join LFMs for non-Normal difficulties put up by other players? More myth.

I have no idea or opinion about whether new players are quitting due to Champions, but your myth-busting is busted.

[Holleyz]

I just decided to change servers from Cannith to Thelanis, I rolled up a new level 1 character on Thelanis last night. I was running the Korthos quests on elite with a hire. Well the champions would one shot my hire then eat me alive. Now I am not a professional player but I'm sure not a sucky one either. How am I supposed to kill these things with the junk loot your dropping me in the chests? Really a rusty longsword and a rusty mace ain't gonna take out a champion monster in Heytons rest. I won't even go into the the Cannith Crystal quest because that would just cause me to go on a 7 page rant.

[phillymiket]

I just decided to change servers from Cannith to Thelanis, I rolled up a new level 1 character on Thelanis last night. I was running the Korthos quests on elite with a hire. Well the champions would one shot my hire then eat me alive. Now I am not a professional player but I'm sure not a sucky one either. How am I supposed to kill these things with the junk loot your dropping me in the chests? Really a rusty longsword and a rusty mace ain't gonna take out a champion monster in Heytons rest. I won't even go into the the Cannith Crystal quest because that would just cause me to go on a 7 page rant.

Oh hush you.

Don't let reality interfere with the well constructed fantasy of these Fish Eyed Fools who think Champions on Korthos won't crush the soul out of DDO in a year.

Have you tried Normal?

[Qhualor]

I just decided to change servers from Cannith to Thelanis, I rolled up a new level 1 character on Thelanis last night. I was running the Korthos quests on elite with a hire. Well the champions would one shot my hire then eat me alive. Now I am not a professional player but I'm sure not a sucky one either. How am I supposed to kill these things with the junk loot your dropping me in the chests? Really a rusty longsword and a rusty mace ain't gonna take out a champion monster in Heytons rest. I won't even go into the the Cannith Crystal quest because that would just cause me to go on a 7 page rant.

The devs did say they will be looking into hires for an upgrade because of Champions, but it sounds to me the only thing you have going for you is game experience. You are an experienced new player with no plat, no daddy toon to take care of you, probably no friends or guildies to play with, probably no guild for ship buffs and just relying on chest loot until you can build yourself up again. A TR might have better gear saved or having a little plat for better twink gear off the AH, but I usually don't try to twink out until level 4 or 5. Its like you almost know what its like for a new player, but almost anyone helpful would suggest running normal instead of jumping into elite. Its not like a first life character needs elite xp and you can always go back later if you really need the favor.

[BDog77]

Its like you almost know what its like for a new player, but almost anyone helpful would suggest running normal instead of jumping into elite. Its not like a first life character needs elite xp and you can always go back later if you really need the favor.

This answer to a somewhat veteran player at least highlights the loss of one of the benefits of being VIP, losing the worth of the ability to unlock quests on elite.

[Keladon]

This answer to a somewhat veteran player at least highlights the loss of one of the benefits of being VIP, losing the worth of the ability to unlock quests on elite.

"One of the benefits" would be quite the understatement. It's one of the few things VIP still has that you can't buy in the store and also the only one that really justifies getting VIP, but that last part is just my opinion ofcourse.

I was actually almost going to bring out the "The devs don't expect new players to run elite" line.. but yes, telling an experienced player to run normal doesn't really feel right to me.
And if that doesn't work we still have the "you don't need the xp from elite" line. You can get there by running normal so why on earth would you ever want to run anything else?

[Holleyz]

The devs did say they will be looking into hires for an upgrade because of Champions, but it sounds to me the only thing you have going for you is game experience. You are an experienced new player with no plat, no daddy toon to take care of you, probably no friends or guildies to play with, probably no guild for ship buffs and just relying on chest loot until you can build yourself up again. A TR might have better gear saved or having a little plat for better twink gear off the AH, but I usually don't try to twink out until level 4 or 5. Its like you almost know what its like for a new player, but almost anyone helpful would suggest running normal instead of jumping into elite. Its not like a first life character needs elite xp and you can always go back later if you really need the favor.

Your right I am starting over from scratch. Nothingness. But I still could use the favor for backpack space and bank space. So I open Elite. If I have to run these quests level up then come back and RE RUN them just for the favor then that to me is just a GRIND. What is the point in bein VIP then?

[Braegan]

Your right I am starting over from scratch. Nothingness. But I still could use the favor for backpack space and bank space. So I open Elite. If I have to run these quests level up then come back and RE RUN them just for the favor then that to me is just a GRIND. What is the point in bein VIP then?

Have you tried grouping up?

Just because to me, even with some game knowledge being able to take a brand new naked character and stomp Elite does seem broken. It should challenge you and sometimes defeat you. You are choosing to run the highest difficulty available on a brand new, no geared toon with previous knowledge. If you are grouping up and still getting destroyed I can see your point.

While I am on board with signing no champs to korthos, that doesn't really apply to you, you are not a new player. You know what you are doing/looking for/building towards/etc. Low level characters have limited power, especially moreso when not twinked. There is no house K favor that I recall from Korthos and with the ability to reach over 400 coin lord favor in game, if you need inv space you will have that running on norm I am sure. You don't *need* to run Elite Korthos. And I am sure there are lfms up for at least harbor elite quests. It has been some time since I played on Thelanis but the boards were pretty active compared to Cannith. You could easily run norm maybe hard and maybe snag an elite WW run and STK and get your Inv space. Vons are also often run at level on elite for BB so getting your bank space is also easy.

Try grouping. Elite is not supposed to be balanced on soloing.

[Qhualor]

Your right I am starting over from scratch. Nothingness. But I still could use the favor for backpack space and bank space. So I open Elite. If I have to run these quests level up then come back and RE RUN them just for the favor then that to me is just a GRIND. What is the point in bein VIP then?

If you call running a quest 2 times a grind for favor because you can't handle elite, I wonder if you expect to also get the loot you want the first time through? This is why we have justification problems and expectancy to auto win problems. When you dumb down the hardest difficulty so anybody should complete it easily enough we get those that actually can handle the hardest difficulty ranting the game isn't challenging. Enter dev response with Champions. You make your naked first life character and the justification to complete elite a prime example of what's wrong with the game.

If being a VIP only means opening elite and the only thing worth it to you subscribing, than you are paying too much for the game. Its quite easy to put up an lfm and say "need elite unlocked" or something like that. Elite is the standard in heroics and mostly in epics. Very high chance you will get an unlocker.

[phillymiket]

If you call running a quest 2 times a grind for favor because you can't handle elite, I wonder if you expect to also get the loot you want the first time through? This is why we have justification problems and expectancy to auto win problems. When you dumb down the hardest difficulty so anybody should complete it easily enough we get those that actually can handle the hardest difficulty ranting the game isn't challenging. Enter dev response with Champions. You make your naked first life character and the justification to complete elite a prime example of what's wrong with the game.

If being a VIP only means opening elite and the only thing worth it to you subscribing, than you are paying too much for the game. Its quite easy to put up an lfm and say "need elite unlocked" or something like that. Elite is the standard in heroics and mostly in epics. Very high chance you will get an unlocker.

Here's a guy or lady that has game knowledge but not the buffs and gear.

And we are talking about "can't handle it"?

The difference now between being able to run Elite is now gear and buffs!?! and not SKILL and KNOWLEDGE?!?

BUFFS AND GEAR > SKILL on Korthos?!?

Where is the "purist rage" about that?

It's totally not cool. In 2009 or so SKILL ALONE was enough to work your way up through the ranks to Elite play at start.

We are totally changing the progression and experience of a starting/untwinked player in a game that is 8 years old without any worry for the consequences like it was just another minor change.

...and yes unlocking Elite so i could solo a quest (i play at odd hours) with VIP is the primary reason I first sub'ed in 2009.

[Sehenry03]

Your right I am starting over from scratch. Nothingness. But I still could use the favor for backpack space and bank space. So I open Elite. If I have to run these quests level up then come back and RE RUN them just for the favor then that to me is just a GRIND. What is the point in bein VIP then?

I feel for ya...so let me get this straight...

1) You are starting a new character from scratch with no gear or money
2) You are opening on Elite with a new 1st life with no gear or money
3) The mobs won't simply roll over and die as you run past?? They actually fight back and they hit hard on ELITE??

**** what the hell is this world coming to!!!! Turbine!!!! Soylent Green is PEOPLE!?!?!?!

Really...do a few quests on elite for some better gear and come back. All those quests on korthos except misery's peak take like 5 min to complete is it REALLY that big of a deal to run normal and get gear and come back? I mean if 5 min's to rerun later is THAT bad I really don't think this game is for you. And I go WAY out of my way to help new players get going so I have a TON of patience but I think your expectations are a bit much

[count_spicoli]

This, also, My wife and I are one of those 2 man family teams. You want to know her feelings on champions, she works 7 on and 7 off, so she got to play with the champions pre-nerf 1 time. So if champions are bothering you, well at least you can quit out of the game, if they are bothering you on the forums you can close the forums. But in my house, I just have to listen to and I quote, "Well it sucks I got cheated out of even checking the champions out before they nerfed them because of a bunch of whiny crybabies that couldn't let it go for longer than a week," every time the champions comes up in my house. So there you go, just be glad you don't have a wife yelling at you like it's your fault.

I like the way your wife thinks

[Qhualor]

Here's a guy or lady that has game knowledge but not the buffs and gear.

And we are talking about "can't handle it"?

The difference now between being able to run Elite is now gear and buffs!?! and not SKILL and KNOWLEDGE?!?

BUFFS AND GEAR > SKILL on Korthos?!?

Where is the "purist rage" about that?

It's totally not cool. In 2009 or so SKILL ALONE was enough to work your way up through the ranks to Elite play at start.

We are totally changing the progression and experience of a starting/untwinked player in a game that is 8 years old without any worry for the consequences like it was just another minor change.

...and yes unlocking Elite so i could solo a quest (i play at odd hours) with VIP is the primary reason I first sub'ed in 2009.

I've always said skill and game knowledge are more important than buffs and gear, but combined can make a very powerful character.

People sub for different reasons. I subbed because I wanted the perks, wanted full access to the game now and not months later TP farming that was quite popular to do back in the day. Like I said, its cheaper to join someone's elite lfm or ask for one in an lfm if that's the only VIP perk that you care about. Quite easy to ride someone's coattails if you are in a group too.

[count_spicoli]

I just decided to change servers from Cannith to Thelanis, I rolled up a new level 1 character on Thelanis last night. I was running the Korthos quests on elite with a hire. Well the champions would one shot my hire then eat me alive. Now I am not a professional player but I'm sure not a sucky one either. How am I supposed to kill these things with the junk loot your dropping me in the chests? Really a rusty longsword and a rusty mace ain't gonna take out a champion monster in Heytons rest. I won't even go into the the Cannith Crystal quest because that would just cause me to go on a 7 page rant.

Go into this quest on elite with well balanced party which is what elite should be designed for and see how you fair.

What your trying to do is go into the quest like the farmers kid with a pitchfork and trying to take on the royal guard.

[Braegan]

Go into this quest on elite with well balanced party which is what elite should be designed for and see how you fair.

What your trying to do is go into the quest like the farmers kid with a pitchfork and trying to take on the royal guard.

This.

Elite anywhere is supposed to be balanced on a group.

Being able to solo elite is pushing uber territory.

While I do rent some uber territory, I don't own it all and I don't fault the game for my personal lack of ownership.

I really wish more would do the same.

[Ayseifn]

If it were me, at the same time level cap goes to 30 and some raids, high level quests, end game goodness is released I would launch a new lowbie zone. Korthos is kind of old and not altogether original. Shipwrecked huh? The newbie zone is the first impression, go big on it. Then do a marketing push with themed: Level Cap Increase! New Starter Zone! Then...profit!

And then perhaps since it would be a fresh coding for a new zone it could be done champ free with greater ease. This I don't know about because again I have no idea what is and isn't possible.

Who knows, maybe I'll win the powerball, buy DDO and make it happen.

Korthos is the F2P zone IMO, so new people will be starting on normal, then hard, then elite or joining some other group for hard/elite. That sounds fine to me on paper.

I doubt too many people pay for VIP out the gate sight unseen but if there are people doing that then yeah, things need to change. Unlocking elite on first/second lifers is supposed to be a benefit for VIPs, maybe VIPs should get veteran status bundled in for free or some lesser version so they start at level 2 or something.

[Braegan]

Korthos is the F2P zone IMO, so new people will be starting on normal, then hard, then elite or joining some other group for hard/elite. That sounds fine to me on paper.

I doubt too many people pay for VIP out the gate sight unseen but if there are people doing that then yeah, things need to change. Unlocking elite on first/second lifers is supposed to be a benefit for VIPs, maybe VIPs should get veteran status bundled in for free or some lesser version so they start at level 2 or something.

It's hard to tell.

If I was given an option to pay 10 bucks and see all the game for a month or play a limited version and pay as you go. I would probably go for the pay 10 bucks for a month, that would give me enough time to see if I wanted to invest more. Of course some folks may differ.

But, regardless the newbie zone is the first impression. It should be forgiving of new folks mistakes but it should still be awesome. A tall order for sure, but one that needs to be in this market.

[Xionanx]

Here's a guy or lady that has game knowledge but not the buffs and gear.

And we are talking about "can't handle it"?

The difference now between being able to run Elite is now gear and buffs!?! and not SKILL and KNOWLEDGE?!?

BUFFS AND GEAR > SKILL on Korthos?!?

Where is the "purist rage" about that?

It's totally not cool. In 2009 or so SKILL ALONE was enough to work your way up through the ranks to Elite play at start.

We are totally changing the progression and experience of a starting/untwinked player in a game that is 8 years old without any worry for the consequences like it was just another minor change.

...and yes unlocking Elite so i could solo a quest (i play at odd hours) with VIP is the primary reason I first sub'ed in 2009.

IMHO if you were to take ship buffs and OVERPOWERED gear from the players in DDO.. 90% of them couldn't make it through tempest spine relying solely on "Player" buffs and gear we USED TO HAVE TO DO IT WITH.. you know, before the game became a mindless zerg through every quest.

I would love to see a NEW server with a "Hardcore" rule set in place for all these "Vets" claiming they want a "challenge".
* NO Guild Buffs
* NO Crafted Gear
* NO Enhancements

See how long it takes them to get "Bored" with how easy the game is..

[Robbenklopper]

The new Thing with the Champions is pretty ok, although i wished for you devs would have found another way to Balance difficulty. But now there´s more salt in the soup to spice up our lives.

Now higher EE Content makes it a thrill to play, those champs are really nasty, that inbetween i thought my guildy and i wouln´t make it, but we succeeded with some sweat on the front. This to say for my melee THF and S&B. Monk has it a Little harder coz of the lesser DPS and still doubtable nerfed QP. For my ranged guildy it was more challenging and he was more like a headless chicken running around than before the champs-update and died some times. Same i can Report for some casters. Questionable if they like it, but i think they had it too easy before. I hate for running after the Mobs chasing the non-melees ...

So all in all, i vote it a +1 with the champs. But also means a slight bigger touch to fail, what i think ok.

[SiliconScout]

This is a copy n paste from another thread I replied in but I wanted to add it here because, well because it's where it's apparently assured to be read. Please let this stand as feed back for the current champion implementation.


I recently Duo'd Heroic Elite Coal Chamber with a party of 2 casters, 1 ice sorc, 1 PM. Now before the change I can tell you we would have ROFLstomped that quest easily, invis run most of it, etc. This time around we got champs, not crazy numbers but enough of them with True Seeing that Dungeon Alert mattered. So we stopped using invs. Relied heavily on SLA's for Spell Point conservation the PM used insta-kill spells pretty much only on Champs (and a fair few were immune to it) and it was tough.

Not only did the champs make a HUGE difference, the force traps aren't one shot anymore, they go off every time we open a door. We had a standard Cleric Hire and had to pick up a Rogue (he only did traps) and we had several deaths but we made it through. Was their ever a real chance we would fail? Honestly, probably not so long we took it slow and to be honest once we made the adjustment to stop the invis zerg, the only thing we really really worried about was the ambush. We were sure to get a couple of champions and if they were both Therge's with deathward that was going to get messy in a hurry. Unfortunately we pulled 4 champs, fortunately only 1 was a caster and he did not have deathward.

Granted it took probably 2.5 times as long to run that quest we had SO much more fun in the end in fact I actually look forward to the next time I run that quest and THAT is something I haven't said since about a month after it was released!

Yeah I get it that it makes Heroic Elite hard, but really it SHOULD be hard, it's ELITE, it's the hardest difficulty meant to be run with a full party or experienced players. Hell the tool tip even says so, it something a new player should work up to and in all honesty if they are a decent player and play somewhat regularly it will take a couple weeks, maybe a month and they will be Elite ready with a LOT better skill set then so many of the current crop of players. I cannot tell you how many completionists, even x3 completionists I have pug'ed with that quite honestly were about as useful as the standard hireling in Heroic levels. That is a sad, sad state of affairs. If Champions help raise the bar then good on them it's better for the community and the game in the long run. It might cost us the odd new player but most of those who would quit over champions likely would have found something else to quit over soon enough, they want an easy button of unlimited candy. I would argue that it will help train and retain quality players and let's be honest quality players in a healthy community atmosphere will draw and retain far more players than any content or mechanic could ever hope to.