Monster Champion Feedback

[Sehenry03]

Also I said that person could fail that quest because of champions, I didn't even mention the seers.

Ok now I am lost...other then the seer why would you fail this quest because of champions? They 1 shot you? That can happen anywhere in a lot of situations. If you simply mention Madstone and Durks as being quite possible to fail because they have champions??? You can use your logic and say EVERY quest can be failed and you don't need champions to even do that. I can run VoN3 and get 1 shotted by a beholder or the trap...do I fail? Only if I give up.

Have you TRIED champions lately?

I think some people need to try the champs now because they are a joke. Yes I can still find that one rare champ that might 1 shot me but that's 1 in several quests. And as far as how random it is...I LOVE that. Sorry but knowing I can always win a quest easy because I happen to know how to prepare for it gets really boring. Running through quests now and a champ gets the drop on me? Hell yeah that's what I'M talking about. Bring it Turbine!!

[Keladon]

you make a confusion between tactical difficulty and intrinsic power of carracters.

Yes it's unlucky to fail against a champion when you play a new toons. It's not about tactict and play-style, it's just about ubber-gear and TRs.

When you fail against a random champion which randomly can deal 100+damage at lvl 5, there is no adjust tactic for a new toon. CC can fail, even if they are maxed by lvl AP, PRR cannot be huge when you have no past-life and the gear with. and a One-shoot is still a one-shot, it's not possible to avoid it, it's just a question of luck = you faced the champion who have the worst buff for you.

Without champion there was no level diffuclty for multi-TRs/Gears
With champions there is no level difficulty for new toons, casuals, permadeath-like etc.
The only ansear you had for them is : go to play in normal.

But Elite was not designed for multi-TRs,
it was designed for toons with the gear that actually can be loot in quest at that level, for toons with ability they can reach at that level etc.

Actually multi-TRs needed more challenge, ok, turbine give the champs to them.
But the middle players, the skilled players without TRs have no place because turbine has taken away the content for them.

the discussion would not be pro/con CM
Nobody ask to remove totaly the champ, they just ask a balance of the game for their level.
Champ are just an answer for multi-TRs, the other players need their game too.

Well said.

But if they don't have a way to solve the issues you just mentioned, removing them from everything but EE is still the best solution in my opinion (new players have heroic, vets have EE).

Ok now I am lost...other then the seer why would you fail this quest because of champions? They 1 shot you? That can happen anywhere in a lot of situations. If you simply mention Madstone and Durks as being quite possible to fail because they have champions???

I didn't mention those quests, you've got a bit of a mix up going there.
And you just admitted that there are still champs that 1 shot you, negating any possible use of tactics. It's your right to enjoy random deaths that can't be prevented, but not everyone feels the same way.
Also, and you should know this, traps and beholders are learning experiences, they're not random. Yes, they can 1-shot you, but you will learn from it, that doesn't apply to champions because.. they're 100% random.

[Sehenry03]

You said it yourself, more than 4 times.

And you're right: it does break the game in some situations. Some people might not believe that, because they're using an incorrectly-strict definition of what "broken" means. Places like Madstone, Tormented, and even Durks have been broken by the champ system; the possibility of workarounds or limping through doesn't mean it's not broken. Consider it like a car: just because it's still technically drivable doesn't mean it hasn't been really messed up.

My apologies Keladon...I was replying to Scrabbler post here and you mentioned something...I thought you were the one I quoted. I was asking Scrabbler how these quests are "broken" and I assumed he was talking about the seers maybe being 1 shotted but I was lost how Durks was broken

[doucefeuille]

Well said.

But if they don't have a way to solve the issues you just mentioned, removing them from everything but EE is still the best solution in my opinion (new players have heroic, vets have EE).

I am not sure that removing champs from Heroic is a good solution, When a multi-TRs/Gears want to TR again and began at lvl 1 he is right to have a level of difficulty for him if he want it. So i prefer thinking at other solutions, lots of people mentioned them in previous post :
1/ check box with champion as an option
2/ a new difficulty level above Elite with champs (elite & hard as pre-U24)
3/ intelligent game which can adjust the CM spaw and level of difficulty in regard of the number of TRs entering the quest.
4/ an "old school" server with no champions

1,2 & 3 with more xp and removed the increase of xp given in hard/elite because of the TRs

There is other solutions which can pleased everybody... or near... or just without broken the game for a whole community of players.

[Sehenry03]

And you just admitted that there are still champs that 1 shot you, negating any possible use of tactics. It's your right to enjoy random deaths that can't be prevented, but not everyone feels the same way.
Also, and you should know this, traps and beholders are learning experiences, they're not random. Yes, they can 1-shot you, but you will learn from it, that doesn't apply to champions because.. they're 100% random.

This is exactly what I DO like about them. Don't get me wrong I love doing raids and knowing how to complete them. On the flip side though TRing gets boring when you know how every quest is gonna go and you don't die in 10 lives. This is refreshing to me and I personally LOVE the champions. yes I can see how being 1 shotted can get old but people talk like it happens all the time. How often does anyone get 1 shotted now after the nerf? Myself its been MAYBE 3 times in a lot fo quests.. One wasn't so much a 1 shot as like 10 attacks all at 1 time lol

[Keladon]

My apologies Keladon...I was replying to Scrabbler post here and you mentioned something...I thought you were the one I quoted. I was asking Scrabbler how these quests are "broken" and I assumed he was talking about the seers maybe being 1 shotted but I was lost how Durks was broken

It happens when everyone is quoting everyone else.
But I'm just going to wait for an official response now, this discussion isn't really going anywhere at the moment, I want to see what the devs think about all of this right now.
We can keep discussing every little aspect of champions, but in the meanwhile we have no idea what they're planning to do (or not).

[doucefeuille]

On the flip side though TRing gets boring when you know how every quest is gonna go and you don't die in 10 lives.

You know every wuest, but it's not the same for everybody.
There is still new players in the game. I am not talking about noob who just want to rush, but realy good new players, casual or just old player who have less time to play, who left the game and return, so they forgot the quests.
Elite pre-U24 was designed for them
Now they have no game because of champ

The choice do'nt have to be champ or no champ at all, the game need to have both, for both community

yes I can see how being 1 shotted can get old but people talk like it happens all the time. How often does anyone get 1 shotted now after the nerf? Myself its been MAYBE 3 times in a lot fo quests.. One wasn't so much a 1 shot as like 10 attacks all at 1 time lol

I was one-shooted before and after nerf
after nerf sometimes it's 2 shooted but it's pretty the same as at low level with new toons you cannot have healing spell as hudge as the champions deal damage. OS still happens, today, yes. And We do not run quest like chiken without head!

First today I had the escort one-shooted in the quest with the 2 brothers in a tavern
After I was one-shooted, again, in HH in tangleroot, on a quest there is 5 "optional" but you cannot avoid them as they are on the path, every of them was crowned and the "weakest" just kill one of us. One-shoot by a crown spider at the entrance. After 3 try, we just decided to reset the quest untill we have no crown spider... We have CC and we used it, we have heal and we used it, we have shield, buff and we used it but we have no TRs, no past-life, no 32pts, no craft, no end-game gear, etc.
We have just what it was needed for an elite as it was designed for us before U24
And I am not a "noob", I've played other MMO and I was on DDO a long time ago, before the marketplace was destroyed by fiends, we was able to duo in elite... At this time there were no PRR, no TR, no hire, no stack of potion/cake to buy in the store etc. But it was possible.
It's so patronizing to tell "you do not know how to play in elite, go in normal"... elite was elite but not for multi-TRs as they reach a goal beyond elite.... the game do not need champ in hard/elite but an other challenge for those beyond elite.

[redoubt]

Ok so a question to everyone posting here...and I mean this with no sarcasm...

How many of you have actually played with new players in the last week?

I am not saying I speak for all new players...but here is a basic breakdown of the last few days of questing with Ziffin my TR Druid

I was lvl 10 when champs were introduced and I hit 20 and I TR'ed. Now when I TR'ed it was after the nerf to Champs.

I got my stuff and immediately posted in harbor and korthos "Running all Korthos quests on Elite if any lvls 1-3 want to join". I had 2 people join. 1 was an arty the other a fighter. The fighter moved here from another server but had only played a few days before that. The Arty was on for the first time. I helped the Arty understand his class(didn't know they were a good trapper) and gave both of them some lowbie stuff to get going. We did all Korthos and all the lvl 2 quests on Elite also. I told them I moved along fast but if they wanted me to explain anything just ask. Both kept up just fine (the arty caught on quick and did well). We were all lvl 4 when done and I called it a night. Oh I also told them to talk to Bathory Horde for possible guild so they could get ship buffs and more help.

Next day I got back on at lvl 4. I had the Arty send me a tell right away and I invited him again. Also got a monk who was lvl 4 to join my LFM and the fighter sent me a msg but he was lvl 8 as he had played with his guild all night. The arty, monk and my druid then did all lvl 3 quests and lvl 4 quests again on Elite and again I moved right along. The monk died a few times but did well and kept up pretty good. The arty I found out rerolled to get trapping skills and to redo his stats and that's why he was lvl 4 still when I got on. All the quests went fine and they especially loved Proof is in the Poison and we actually did that one with no deaths while people died in easier ones. I also had a cleric join...name is Diminished who was pretty new and he was able to do the f2p quests only.

Next day the monk and the cleric joined again. The arty said hi but was in a guild group so he was good. We did all 5 and 6 quests again on elite. A few deaths but no biggie. I would get a hireling trapper for a few quests. The cleric did well enough but he couldn't join for the p2p quests.

Last night we did all lvl 7 quests...the monk joined again. We had 1 other vet join and 2 newish players join and ran a lot of content again on Elite.

I mention all this because out of ALL the people I grouped with...not a single one cared about the champs. Not one. One didn't even know what the crown above the head meant...and then they understood what I was walking about when I said a champion caster was approaching and everyone zerged the caster. The monk got good at tripping champs. Again not one single complaint. The monk and the arty both said when I wasn't there they simply soloed normal and hard quests.

So how many actually talk to new players about this stuff? I see a lot of people keep saying the new players hate it but the ones I have grouped with could care less.

Please be HONEST with your answer to plz.

I do get actual new players from time to time as I open most of my groups. That said, I don't think I've had an actual new player since the update.

As far as the new players not noticing the champions, how could they? You were leading the group. I'm not even being snarky. Same would happen if they joined my groups. Unless they got out in front of me, which is unlikely, it is highly unlikely for a new player to get champion agro while playing with me, or any vet.

How they do on their own, I don't know. How often they group together and run content, I don't know. Just being honest as requested. 8)

[redoubt]

To each his own, personally, I use Cacophonic Verge.

But as has been pointed out you can use the old fashioned way - lead them away (or kill the Carcass Eaters with rotten flesh) to activate plates or into traps - whichever you prefer.

The point is, a crown does not invalidate any of these approaches. Though your mileage may vary.

How do you lead the wargs away? I know the carrion eaters like the meat, but I didn't think the wargs did...

And its not that I can't do the quest, its that I think allowing the mobs under the floor to be champions is dumb.

Not everyone has the wand you refer to.

[spatio]

Epic used to require skill and tactical fighting. Elites were also challenging. Then came so many various changes that made the players stronger.

Personally, I think giving players epic levels was a huge mistake because with 8 more levels then players can crush all the existing epic content.

Making the game more challenging is fine, but having a random mob with uber bosses is just lazy. Makes no sense that the final boss usually isn't the big fight in a quest. The toughest fights are now trash with champion buffs that combined with the monster's base features results in a by far the toughest monster in the quest. Might as well go to computer generated mazes with random monsters and treasure.

Just say that elites are now tougher with the CR of every monster being bumped by 1 for heroic elite for level 1-10 quests, 2 for level 11-20 heroic elite and 4 for epic elite.

Doing Misery's Peak snowy side and running into a mob that includes Death's Advocate with 530 hp is so wrong. What CR is that supposed to represent? That was several times harder than anything else in the quest.

With the current random champions then the difficulty of a quest can no longer be claimed to be any particular level. Depending upon how many of what becomes champions then a quest may be just slightly harder than before or it can play like it is 6 levels higher.

[lendarker]

I believe there has been a slight misunderstanding. Since I was the one posting the original Durk's Secret example, I'd like to clarify a few points:

1. I don't think the quest is broken because of champions.
2. Yes, this could happen in about any other quest on elite that has caster mobs.
3. I've ran Durk's myself on Elite successfully at least once (at least my favor display says so). I'll be able to do it again, too.
4. Champions introduce a random element that can both be fun and frustrating. My example was one of the times where they are the latter. A bit of randomness is cool, it breathes a bit of new life into old content. However, if being able to complete a certain quest (or simply survive any particular stretch of tunnel) depends on random chance rather than skill, it becomes a turn-off. If running the same quest required different sets of equipment or using different abilities (i.e. adapting your approach to the specific encounter that spawned), that would be awesome. If all it entails is see if a bad boy champion spawned or not...in short, if I have no way to adapt, and no amount of skill will put me in a different position, then that isn't fun for me.

tl;dr:

I hate when my success or failure at a game hinges not on something I can influence (skill, equip with different bonuses, different abilities), but on what champion abilities the rng rolls.

[redoubt]

If we are talking about ONLY ONE champion in a particular fight, would giving the mob:

4x HP
+100PRR (& 50MRR?)
+50% damage (Maybe 50 melee power would be a better way?)
Haste clickie (that would apply to nearby mobs as well.)

Be a challenge? (Melee mob, not caster of course. Caster would get something different.) This mob would between 4 and 8 times as time consuming to kill (melee lose 50% damage due to prr, if it was not physical damage then maybe not as bad) while dealing half again as much damage.

I'm just curious what people think you need to do to a mob to make it a challenge. I'm not even sure that they will scale all the way from 1 to 28, but I was trying to put it in relative terms so that you could apply the buff set to a level 1 or level 28 mob and get the same relative boost. Thoughts?

[Xionanx]

Just failed "Let Sleeping Dust Lie"

Reason: Champion archer appeared and proceeded to pincushion spider Queen Lycosa who refuses to "hide" around the corner to prevent archers from hitting her.

Failure due to BAD GAME MECHANICS does NOT equal fun.

Like I said before, champions are a good idea, poorly implemented. I wouldn't mind champions so much if there was some kind of consistency in their appearance or rules preventing "Stupid" encounters.

For example:
1. No champs in escort, protection, or "dont kill" quests.. just no.
2. No "bag of HP" champs that are already named mobs.. (did I mention it took me over 6 minutes to kill Yre for the key in Let Sleeping Dust Lie because.. hey, he was a champ with a bag of HP.. )
3. No champs that are also "healers" (just yesterday I was doing Framework, and guess what.. THREE champs healers right next to each other.. spamming heal.. with unlimited mana points)

As a general rule, increasing the TIME it takes to kill an enemy that isn't a threat does not = increased challenge or fun. Just because an enemy that has NO chance of killing me takes 10x a long to kill doesn't mean he's suddenly fun or challenging.

[BD_]

If we are talking about ONLY ONE champion in a particular fight, would giving the mob:

4x HP
+100PRR (& 50MRR?)
+50% damage (Maybe 50 melee power would be a better way?)
Haste clickie (that would apply to nearby mobs as well.)

Be a challenge? (Melee mob, not caster of course. Caster would get something different.) This mob would between 4 and 8 times as time consuming to kill (melee lose 50% damage due to prr, if it was not physical damage then maybe not as bad) while dealing half again as much damage.

I'm just curious what people think you need to do to a mob to make it a challenge. I'm not even sure that they will scale all the way from 1 to 28, but I was trying to put it in relative terms so that you could apply the buff set to a level 1 or level 28 mob and get the same relative boost. Thoughts?

No.... to make a single mob a challenge (to those that are able to steamroll solo elite/EE's) you need to make that mob so incredibly overpowered that it becomes just stupid... Even then, for an experienced player, they're probably not going to be a challenge, just an annoyance...

There comes a point where you become "too good" at a game - not just DDO, but almost any game.

[BD_]

Just failed "Let Sleeping Dust Lie"

Reason: Champion archer appeared and proceeded to pincushion spider Queen Lycosa who refuses to "hide" around the corner to prevent archers from hitting her.

Failure due to BAD GAME MECHANICS does NOT equal fun.

Like I said before, champions are a good idea, poorly implemented. I wouldn't mind champions so much if there was some kind of consistency in their appearance or rules preventing "Stupid" encounters.

For example:
1. No champs in escort, protection, or "dont kill" quests.. just no.
2. No "bag of HP" champs that are already named mobs.. (did I mention it took me over 6 minutes to kill Yre for the key in Let Sleeping Dust Lie because.. hey, he was a champ with a bag of HP.. )
3. No champs that are also "healers" (just yesterday I was doing Framework, and guess what.. THREE champs healers right next to each other.. spamming heal.. with unlimited mana points)

As a general rule, increasing the TIME it takes to kill an enemy that isn't a threat does not = increased challenge or fun. Just because an enemy that has NO chance of killing me takes 10x a long to kill doesn't mean he's suddenly fun or challenging.

Sadly, most people (or at least the most vocal forum posters) don't understand that takes longer does not equal harder or more challenge.

Champion healers would probably be ok if they had more cooldown on spell casting times - and if their heals healed for less per cast... there are other caster mobs that are incredibly annoying because they spam certain spells over and over with nearly no cool down between casts also.

[Scrabbler]

Since I was the one posting the original Durk's Secret example

The original example of Durk's Secret in this thread involved slimes, not casters.

[redoubt]

No.... to make a single mob a challenge (to those that are able to steamroll solo elite/EE's) you need to make that mob so incredibly overpowered that it becomes just stupid... Even then, for an experienced player, they're probably not going to be a challenge, just an annoyance...

There comes a point where you become "too good" at a game - not just DDO, but almost any game.

IF that is the case, would we be better off not trying to make it challenging for that small subset and rethink our target for difficulty?

[BD_]

IF that is the case, would we be better off not trying to make it challenging for that small subset and rethink our target for difficulty?

Yes, but DDO has been around long enough that that subset is not really that small...

When you reach a certain level of experience in pretty much any video game, there will be very little left in that game that challenges you. Any mob put in the game that will challenge you will be nearly impossible for most with (considerably) less experience (For the purposes of this post gear and character power would be a part of experience) than you.

There are other ways of making a game challenging - besides just making mobs more powerful (not going to get detailed on those in this post...) although eventually players will become experienced enough that even those methods do not really work. Especially in games like DDO where player and monster abilities are vastly different (ie. mobs have of a magnitude more hps than players and unlimited sp/mana etc. etc.).

The random champion that can one shot you isn't a challenge, it's just tedious... Same with large packs of champions... Ok, maybe you die once in a while due to random awful luck... oh well, if you're in a party - doesn't really slow the party down much if one or two people die once in a while. For solo zerging - it might make people summon a res bot hireling and park it at the beginning of a quest as a "just in case insurance policy"... If someone really wanted to they could go really slow and inspect every champion to see if it might be dangerous and then kite those ones... But again - that's not harder, it's just tedious...

[Xionanx]

Why not instead of champions, for those players who want monsters to be more challenging just implement a "Custom" difficulty option when entering a quest, with sliders that do the following:

Increase monster to hit chance: Slider from 1 to 20 (for those with high AC) Bonus XP of 0.5% per to hit increase
Increase monster bonus damage: Slider from 1 to 100 (for those with bags of HP) Bonus XP of 0.2% per increase damage
Increase monster HP: Slider from 1 to 10,000 (for those who do way too much damage) Bonus XP of 0.01% per increases in HP

So a Player would play on "Elite Custom" and then crank up the difficulty of ALL the monsters in the dungeon based on what they personally feel is a challenge. That way, people who want a challenge can have it, people who don't can just not use it.

[JOTMON]

Why not instead of champions, for those players who want monsters to be more challenging just implement a "Custom" difficulty option when entering a quest, with sliders that do the following:

Increase monster to hit chance: Slider from 1 to 20 (for those with high AC) Bonus XP of 0.5% per to hit increase
Increase monster bonus damage: Slider from 1 to 100 (for those with bags of HP) Bonus XP of 0.2% per increase damage
Increase monster HP: Slider from 1 to 10,000 (for those who do way too much damage) Bonus XP of 0.01% per increases in HP

So a Player would play on "Elite Custom" and then crank up the difficulty of ALL the monsters in the dungeon based on what they personally feel is a challenge. That way, people who want a challenge can have it, people who don't can just not use it.

Without a reward system it would be pointless.

We enjoy challenge because challenge=better reward.

Otherwise it becomes "one and done".
then grind on the easiest difficulty that offers the best chance of reward repeatedly until you get what you want.
Adding Champions to make content more difficult for hard/elite does nothing except push people away from running hard/elite since the reward level did not change.