Monster Champion Feedback

[lethargos]

A mob in lvl 2 elite quest 4 man party.
Got a CRITICAL from REGULAR CHAMPION mob (not sure anymore i think it was iron defender) for 79 HPS in melee...
Thats excessive too, its enough to oneshot players at lvl 4. Had 90 hps myself but wasnt full atm.

[DarthCaedus]

A mob in lvl 2 elite quest 4 man party.
Got a CRITICAL from REGULAR CHAMPION mob (not sure anymore i think it was iron defender) for 79 HPS in melee...
Thats excessive too, its enough to oneshot players at lvl 4. Had 90 hps myself but wasnt full atm.

I ran into one champion that had some good damage reduction plus way more hp than the boss.

With my min level 1 festival icy burst lacerating bta weapons it still took a while to beat him down. I was playing a high hp barbarian so nothing one-shot me, but I expect alot of people would have been one-shot.

Vet players are done with korthos and the harbor in a few hours each life. I don't think the additional challenge is really necessary there. New players spend weeks or months there and most will experiment with high difficulty levels so I question the notion that new players shouldn't be running elite. I was running elite as a new player and so did most people I know.

[Neomarica]

This is another problem that screws new players.

They really need to figure out how make champions only spawn in Epics Hard/Elite and not in Heroics.
Existing content wasn't meant to have Champions and were already designed to be challenging for regular players.

No, they very much don't. None of the content was "designed" to have champions, and heroic content hasn't been challenging for a long time, due to changes that buffed the players without increasing the difficulty of existing content.

[Keladon]

No, they very much don't. None of the content was "designed" to have champions, and heroic content hasn't been challenging for a long time, due to changes that buffed the players without increasing the difficulty of existing content.

Now read what has been said in the previous 2 pages or so.
We don't need new players running into 500hp monsters, we don't need them to get 1shotted, we don't need to scare them away.

Heroic content isn't challenging for your multi TR build with the best gear at each level, no. But it is challenging for new players and if you want those new players to stay, you're not going throw unbalanced champions at them from level 1.
Champions are frustratingly deadly in the lower levels, because of their random nature and because people don't run around with 1000hp at level 5.

So either leave them out of the first levels or leave them out of Heroic. EE is where the difficulty should be at, EE being too easy is what people complained about.

[Ayseifn]

Now read what has been said in the previous 2 pages or so.
We don't need new players running into 500hp monsters, we don't need them to get 1shotted, we don't need to scare them away.

Heroic content isn't challenging for your multi TR build with the best gear at each level, no. But it is challenging for new players and if you want those new players to stay, you're not going throw unbalanced champions at them from level 1.
Champions are frustratingly deadly in the lower levels, because of their random nature and because people don't run around with 1000hp at level 5.

So either leave them out of the first levels or leave them out of Heroic. EE is where the difficulty should be at, EE being too easy is what people complained about.

Haven't played heroic since the change but are they really that much worse?

Found a fair few champs in EEs with insane amounts of HP(getting looked into) and pretty rough combos like extra dmg/second wind/true seeing(might need looking into) but on the whole I enjoy them. Do you think it's a case of EDs being ridiculous power creep for almost any build that kinda evens them out? I mean with EDs it's hard to make a gimp but without them or off destinies I suppose there is much variance, EDs really do level things pretty well IMO.

[FranOhmsford]

Haven't played heroic since the change but are they really that much worse?

Playing through Elite Korthos as a Lvl 1/2 Paladin.

At least two of the named Fish appeared as Champions {200hp plus each!} and were Deathwarded {Really Devs? In a Lvl 3 Quest!}.

The Devs have gone for an all-over system that takes no notice of realism or actualities!
This leads to ridiculousness of the highest order!

[Keladon]

Haven't played heroic since the change but are they really that much worse?

Found a fair few champs in EEs with insane amounts of HP(getting looked into) and pretty rough combos like extra dmg/second wind/true seeing(might need looking into) but on the whole I enjoy them. Do you think it's a case of EDs being ridiculous power creep for almost any build that kinda evens them out? I mean with EDs it's hard to make a gimp but without them or off destinies I suppose there is much variance, EDs really do level things pretty well IMO.

You don't have the same tools to deal with them that you have with ED's or even at level 12 or so. You don't have the gear, you don't have the hp.

They're just as random at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 28, but at lvl 1 you're limited in what you can do and they're not limited in the buffs they get.

To be honest, a lot of classes don't even have the neccesary healing to deal with champs. I can build for DR at lower lvls, I can build for AC, some dodge, even displacement, but champs don't play by the rules and they get through all of that compared to normal monsters. This changes when you get ED's, the playingfield evens out for most classes, everyone can have decent self healing, all classes have more options to deal with those situations.

Yes, this is mainly for new players, but I don't think we should ignore those, just because I've been playing years, doesn't mean Turbine should tailor the game to what I am capable of and the same applies to vets.
We're all playing the same game, but we don't all have the same amount of game knowledge, gear or past lives.

And no, I'm not going to play normal, I don't want to have to repeat every quest a few times to get to 20, it's a reply I keep hearing but blame Turbine for people not wanting to play normal, not the players. (BB, I'm looking at you)

Playing through Elite Korthos as a Lvl 1/2 Paladin.

At least two of the named Fish appeared as Champions {200hp plus each!} and were Deathwarded {Really Devs? In a Lvl 3 Quest!}.

The Devs have gone for an all-over system that takes no notice of realism or actualities!
This leads to ridiculousness of the highest order!

Bolded the important part and one of the reasons why this champion feature is seriously broken/flawed.
The maze in Necro (Tomb of the Tormented) with the champion worg (I think) was a great example of that. Things like that add 0 challenge, it only adds frustration.
They also break escort & defend quests, champions can 1 shot those npc's.
And really.. champion stoned monsters (Eyes of Stone), champion npc's that do nothing.. what's the point of those? And those are just some of the things I ran into that make no sense nor add anything to the game at all.

[Ayseifn]

You don't have the same tools to deal with them that you have with ED's or even at level 12 or so. You don't have the gear, you don't have the hp.

They're just as random at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 28, but at lvl 1 you're limited in what you can do and they're not limited in the buffs they get.

To be honest, a lot of classes don't even have the neccesary healing to deal with champs. I can build for DR at lower lvls, I can build for AC, some dodge, even displacement, but champs don't play by the rules and they get through all of that compared to normal monsters. This changes when you get ED's, the playingfield evens out for most classes, everyone can have decent self healing, all classes have more options to deal with those situations.

Yes, this is mainly for new players, but I don't think we should ignore those, just because I've been playing years, doesn't mean Turbine should tailor the game to what I am capable of and the same applies to vets.
We're all playing the same game, but we don't all have the same amount of game knowledge, gear or past lives.

And no, I'm not going to play normal, I don't want to have to repeat every quest a few times to get to 20, it's a reply I keep hearing but blame Turbine for people not wanting to play normal, not the players. (BB, I'm looking at you)

Ok thanks.

A lot of their abilities are meant to scale with level. So the damage boost should just mean +20% damage from a normal mob in that quest, the HP buff(totally broken atm) should just add +x% but is adding 10x, second wind should just be double damage or something, and true seeing shouldn't really matter in Korthos at all. I play a heavy armoured melee only ATM so missing what they do that's bad for evasion toons and ranged, the only ones that worry me are true seeing, fort bypass(pretty rare), damage boost but that's minor(HP from PLs and class) and second wind. Already found ways to deal with those mostly though so the challenge part is now missing for me but still hurting other builds/players.

Self healing is a huge shift from heroic to epic that I missed and yeah I can see that as being pretty problematic. If previously I could just chug CSW pots til level 12 or whatever but now at level 6 I'm getting randomly hit for 70 per hit it throws things out of balance, especially if I went with a low HP toon that'd have worked fine before this update.

As for the just play normal thing that's something I've said previously because I was frustrated with knee jerk complaints about champions before giving them enough of a chance. It's been a few weeks now so hopefully people still having issues have played with them a lot, tried to adapt and are still seeing these issues rather than just complaining for the sake of it. Complainers got shroud blades nerfed even though they were never that big of a deal before giving the change a chance, I just fear the same is happening here. Like I said though it's been a while now so hopefully grievances are legit.

[haulindonkey]

I ran into one champion that had some good damage reduction plus way more hp than the boss.

With my min level 1 festival icy burst lacerating bta weapons it still took a while to beat him down. I was playing a high hp barbarian so nothing one-shot me, but I expect alot of people would have been one-shot.

Vet players are done with korthos and the harbor in a few hours each life. I don't think the additional challenge is really necessary there. New players spend weeks or months there and most will experiment with high difficulty levels so I question the notion that new players shouldn't be running elite. I was running elite as a new player and so did most people I know.

Important part highlighted in red.

[Ayseifn]

Bolded the important part and one of the reasons why this champion feature is seriously broken/flawed.
The maze in Necro (Tomb of the Tormented) with the champion worg (I think) was a great example of that. Things like that add 0 challenge, it only adds frustration.
They also break escort & defend quests, champions can 1 shot those npc's.
And really.. champion stoned monsters (Eyes of Stone), champion npc's that do nothing.. what's the point of those? And those are just some of the things I ran into that make no sense nor add anything to the game at all.

Yep, those also need serious looking into. Had a champion Elminster in a quest the other day and he just piked as hard as normal, complaining that he forgot his spell mats again and did nothing as usual. Made me laugh but really helps show how a universal system like this does need some massaging for certain quests.

[phillymiket]

As for the just play normal thing that's something I've said previously because I was frustrated with knee jerk complaints about champions before giving them enough of a chance. It's been a few weeks now so hopefully people still having issues have played with them a lot, tried to adapt and are still seeing these issues rather than just complaining for the sake of it.

All these knee jerk reactions are frustrating.

Many people immediately jumped on this thread with a total lack of caring for the next generation of DDO players.
Telling people to play Normal when they would never do the same themselves.
Accusing people of wanting something for nothing when all they want is a fun game to play.
Lumping anyone who complains together, so that "I used to play with my son but now we can't play anymore and so I'm quitting" becomes the same as 'Wah! They nerfed my sword!".

The balancing of the game is a complicated issue.
Champions in the Starter Area is not.
It's a game killer and, frankly, one of the stupidest things I've ever seen a game do.
Random Super-Buffed Killer Mobs in the Starter Area flies in the face of all conventional wisdom of how to attract new players.
Everyday Champions remain on Korthos and in the Harbor is another day where a potentially long-term DDO player potentially leaves the game before ever giving the game a chance.

If you don't care if new people stop joining DDO then you don't care about the game and I don't care about you.

Removing Champions at low levels is the only thing I care about in this thread and IMO it actually is a really big deal and not just talk.
It needs immediate action before it's damages the game greatly.

I hope not just the Devs but those that pay their salaries read this thread and put a stop to it at once.

/Doom Rant off

[Thar]

Stinging Bee and the others claiming that either the high damage hits did not exist or that they are not as tough as raids don't want to actually talk about numbers nor game mechanics.

I replied to his post a bit ago talking about how all the high damage attacks he mentions are telegraphed and avoidable. I've heard nothing back.

The damage is still too high on EE. The problem with a random system is you can randomly get 3-6 champions in the massive mob groups on EE for wheloon or Stormhorns. This leads to disaster more times than not. This isn't challenging it's annoying that the quests are not balanced. The mobs already have 12-20,000 hps normally and hit for 200 hp a pop. the additional damage is too much.

The spawn rate is much better though since the adjustment. It's only rarely that we get more than 3 champions in most other quests. The numbers are just too high for the above.

[Thlargir]

I'm hoping that what the Devs take away from this thread is that their players have a vast range of gear, skill, experience, intentions and opinions, and that only by them being able to fine-tune this system will they have any hope of offering the challenge, progression and reward that is needed to retain any player be they on Korthos or running EE

Surely they do understand the range of players' experience and gear, which is why they offer Casual, Normal, Hard and Elite. It seems to me they have tried to address the issue that nobody wants to run anything but elite no matter their experience or gear?

[JOTMON]

No, they very much don't. None of the content was "designed" to have champions, and heroic content hasn't been challenging for a long time, due to changes that buffed the players without increasing the difficulty of existing content.

I am not talking about Multi-TR's zerging through content they have already run 100+ times in the past. it should be easy for these players.
Champions have little impact on vetern players soloing of heroic content, they are geared and specc'ed, and experienced.

I am talking about regular players who are trying to get through the content to get the gear, XP and favor.
It shouldn't be easy on Hard/Elite and for first time and newish players, it isn't..
Try it for yourself. jump onto a new server and run content with no starting plat or outside help, or ddo store, ... its not easy.


As I see it the problem is arising when veteran players are TR running content and dragging new players through.

Perhaps it is time to have a snowy-side/sunny-side Eberron with no option to skip.
First Lifers have to work their way to cap before being able to join the TR veterans.
Want to help out a new comer.. roll up a new lifer... or have a toon that has not gone to the TR side.

[Thlargir]

It took aditional 40 min and countless rats to take him out in this already exhausting quest

Enquiring minds would like to know why you did not kill the worg before you have the rat run the maze (if soloing) or simultaneously with a party member running the rat through the maze (if in a group)?

[Monkey-Boy]

The Devs have gone for an all-over system that takes no notice of realism or actualities!
This leads to ridiculousness of the highest order!

This is why "random" sucks.

[BryanHasty]

my feedback is I love the challenge added with champions and am sad to see they have been reduced already. please do not reduce them any further.

[phillymiket]

Surely they do understand the range of players' experience and gear, which is why they offer Casual, Normal, Hard and Elite. It seems to me they have tried to address the issue that nobody wants to run anything but elite no matter their experience or gear?

I don't think they do - unless you honestly think casual is good for anyone who has solved the "how do I move my guy?" question, or that Normal will challenge and retain a player, or that a person in Starter Gear on Started Island would think fighting a 600+ HP undead constitutes fun times.

If the Devs "don't envision new players playing on Hard or Elite" then they don't understand what happens in this game at all and haven't, apparently, even looked at the LFMs for the last few years.

They sorta kinda maybe added balance to somethings for some people, barely slowed down others, and totally ruined the game for a different group.

I applaud the effort of trying to do something as a cure but I honestly think the current Champion system violates the "first do no harm" theory of curing stuff.

Champions can be good and we should keep them but they don't belong everywhere.
Not in rat mazes.
Not for Coyle or against Coyle.
Not on Starter Island.
Good intentions don't make any of that go away. Only adjustments will do that.
I'm sure on some level people must see that, even if they don't want to give any ground to the "casualization" which I understand.

There are glaring and obvious flaws in this system that are likely to affect people who will never come to the forums to complain but simply click "uninstall" and try one of the other 6 F2P games they were going to try before picking one to stick with.

So no. There is still not four viable difficulty levels. LFMs are still foe Elite. The game is still unbalanced. Not addressed.
Good start though.
Take what is good, change what is bad, try again, keep trying, eventually the game gets fixed.

But I guess you are right. They tried. That's something and gives me hope.

[spade413]

Hopefully, this thread is still being monitored.

My feedback is that I'd like to see Madstone Crater added to the list of quests that is considered for Champion Immunity. I ran it on heroic hard last night (having run the quest many, many, many times before). Champion Enchanters with non-champion Seers was bit rough. Champion Seers with non-champion Enchanters was just weird. Most importantly, having champions one-shot the Seer during the ritual seemed a bit unreasonable. Especially since (I can't say for sure), I think a champion on the ledge managed to kill the seer in under 5 seconds with his "weak" ranged attack.

We got through it, it wasn't insurmountable, but it was frustrating, and seemed that the only way to win wasn't based on anything my group did, but only on the luck of when champions happened to spawn relative to the seer. If too many spawned at once, there just wasn't anything we could do to stop the Seer from having to start over. I don't believe that this is inline with the intention of either that quest or champions in general.

Just removing (or further reducing) champions from the ritual portions would help alleviate this issue. The rest of the quest wasn't a problem.

[Scrabbler]

Enquiring minds would like to know why you did not kill the worg before you have the rat run the maze (if soloing) or simultaneously with a party member running the rat through the maze (if in a group)?

Hmm, well, to use that approach would be an exploit... so some people could be reluctant, or unaware of how it's done.