Monster Champion Feedback

[Aletys]

It's completely relivent to the current game where there is little to no incentive to repeat Quests on EE.

Those older quests had a gear incentive the newer content has none.

TR to reset your favor is irrelivent so there is only incentive to run a EE quest once per life for favor if it doesn't have a Herioc equivilent.

What I am talking about is an incentive to run EE after bravery bonus meaning it's already been run once for favor. There is no incentive to return.

EE once had an incentive for some quests through tradable Tiered loot that has been scraped. Champions could take up the slack if they had a proper reward system.

Ok, a different perspective, and I can appreciate that. I personally prefer the new BTA loot, since frankly I'm sick of all the BTC loot that falls in the game. I simply don't have enough bank space. At least with BTA loot, I can move it to a different toon when it's not needed on the first toon. A better approach (which I've seen on only a very few items), would be BTAoE (Bound to Account on Equip). I agree that being able to trade it outside the chest is certainly appealing. But unless they significantly increase the amount of personal bank space to store all the BTC loot, I am now avoiding using BTC gear if at all possible.

I'm neither for nor against the exsistance of Champions in Epic levels. I did not find them challenging. I did find random Gaint meat bags of HP to be annoying but, that's not challenge and I did find a few instances where a champion might one shot a player but, that's wasn't very challenging either no more challenging than when Shiradi was giving adrenaline at random to mobs. What I want is a reason to face them instead of just invis by or choosing a different difficulty. make them worth bothering with.

On this I agree almost completely, the only difference being that I am opposed to them, for precisely the reasons you state. Unfortunately, I've seen some of those over-powered meat bags wipe a whole party, or much of a party, repeatedly, especially at lower levels. At higher levels it can be a huge SP sink for casters ... can make "the old, pre-U24 days" task of keeping a poorly built/geared barbarian healed look like it was a cake walk in comparison. Not fun, not challenging, just boring and a waste of my time.

[Aletys]

Again what you said here makes sense. The only thing you didn't mention is IF we lost people how many were already in the process of wanting to leave?

I would argue that just by introducing a tough monster it will make people leave. In time that might be true but common sense also implies that people that were already enjoying the game ran into a wall with the champions they would post it on the forums (which happened) but would continue to play to see how it plays out.

The new WoW expansion is a LOT tougher then the last 4 expansions they have had. They did not lose people and in fact they had an uptick in sub's as people came back because the game was dumbed down after WotLK. So we need to play this out and see what happens.

I still maintain that 99% of the people who supposedly ragequit were already planning on leaving soon and just champions as the excuse so they had a reason to come on here and vent their frustrations.

I have never played WoW, so I have a couple of questions for you:

1. When a WoW expansion is released, does it affect the entire game (old content as well as new), or just the new area in the release?
2. If it does not affect the entire game, but only new content, then how can you draw parallels to the champions on DDO which were implemented game-wide, on existing content?

I suspect that if champions had only been implemented on the new content, the howls of outrage would have been rather limited, as people wouldn't feel forced to play those quests. Run them once, if you don't like them, skip them in the future. That would also have allowed the Devs more time to gage the reaction to the new champions system, and to take enough time to get feedback from folks.

After giving players a few weeks to test them out, they'd have had a pretty clear indication (how many people are still playing them, assessment of feedback, etc.) of whether they had a good idea or if the whole system was essentially flawed. They could have then calibrated things as needed, or pulled it back more easily if necessary.

Instead, they did an across the board implementation, which by all accounts had not been adequately tested (because apparently they don't get enough players on Lamannia), alienated a large proportion of the player base, and had to issue a hot-fix within 1 week. Sounds like a lose-lose proposition all the way around.

As for how many people have actually left the game or canceled their subscriptions, I personally am taking a wait & see attitude, and I suspect many others are doing the same. And, as someone else said, they can cancel their subscriptions and still play f2p. I still don't like champions, but I can deal with them. However, this is the first time since I started playing nearly 2 years ago that I've even thought about moving on to something else. I was really enjoying the game prior to U24. My subscription doesn't expire till the end of April, so I feel no urgency to leave, especially since they toned the champions down. But, I will not do an extended subscription until this is resolved, one way or the other. But, if my subscription was up for renewal now, I wouldn't renew for an extended period, perhaps just for a few weeks to see how this plays out.

[Kaipakta]

Further testing with the champs across various levels has led me to conclude:

Pre level 12 heroic gameplay, especially for non-beefy characters, becomes challenging, sometimes downright rage inducing due to the lack of CC, AOE, and Spiking ability during pre level 12 gameplay.
These low level quests are designed with a few trash mob fights leading up to a single end fight with a redname.
Champion mobs that spawn in these low level quests are about twice as strong as their redname counterparts, so when 2-3 spawn in a group (as they often do) low level toons whose power spikes later tend to have trouble dealing with these mobs.

Those points for low level aside, let's move on to midlevel (12-20)

Beyond level 12 all toons have access to their tier 5 enhancements, which in turn gives them sustainable, repeatable abilities or immunities to deal with champion mobs. In addition to this, beyond level 12 heroic items start to spike, as one has access to their trusty greensteel/alchemical/gianthold/xoriat/whatever goodies.
Because of this, champion mobs beyond level 12 provide appropriate levels of challenge for toons, in my experience they're a great addition to the game beyond level 12.

Moving on to high level/epic gameplay, I have little to input because most of my toons at this time are flushing out heroic past lives.

From what i have observed, however, is that EE toons (based off of observations and friend reports) can deal with champion mobs much like level 12s can.
However, one of two things needs to happen to the EE quests if champion mobs are to remain lore friendly:
-Buff bosses, because EE champ mobs, like their low level counterparts, could easily crush their purple name buddies
-Nerf champion mobs, so they would be crushed by their purple name buddies

My collective idea for a solution would be the following:

-At low levels, meaning below level 8, remove champion mobs completely
-From level 8 onward, begin to set caps (max 1 champion mob existing at a time, etc) ramping up the cap based on level to introduce more difficult to toons that have tools to handle the additional difficulty of champion mobs in a manner other than kiting for days
-In the interest of making champion mobs non-trivial, I believe it would be appropriate to set a maximum of 1 champion per mob group to signify they are the "champion" of that group.
-Also, in the interest of lore-friendly mobs, I think that zombies, oozes, and other 'mindless' mobs shouldn't be able to acquire champion status- they are mindless automatons incapable of seeking progress, and by that definition it is theoretically impossible for them to achieve a level beyond "I'm a meat shield hit me!" in a quest.
-In addition to this, we already have a system for varying the difficult of oozes and the like- sizes, and types (orche jelly, black pudding, dread zombies)

[fmalfeas]

Zombies and Skeletons I think should be eligible for certain 'champion' buffs. After all, the necro or priest who made them could have put some extra juice into them. But nothing 'tactics' based. Mostly procs or resists/absorbs.

[Sehenry03]

I have never played WoW, so I have a couple of questions for you:

1. When a WoW expansion is released, does it affect the entire game (old content as well as new), or just the new area in the release?
2. If it does not affect the entire game, but only new content, then how can you draw parallels to the champions on DDO which were implemented game-wide, on existing content?

No WoW does not have new content affect old content which is why I don't play it.

As to your second point...I can easily draw parallels because:
1) In wow, when a new expansion is added that BECOMES WoW...very few people play old content in WoW other then to get TO the new content. So the NEW content is what everyone in wow is playing.
2) In DDO...we have a very unique opportunity which is called TR'ing. So in effect because we can TR ALL of DDO is basically equal to NEW content in WoW. Again in WoW a HUGE percent will only be playing the new content right now. The rest will be doing a little PvP in the lower levels. New content in WoW becomes the new normal game. And as to your point does wow add stuff that affects everyone? yes. They added a system requiring people to meet certain standards before they can do certain raids. Early in WoW ANYONE could join any raid as long as you were flagged. Later they added a point system to your gear. If you had a high enough gear lvl THEN you could join certain raids. Some hated it and some loved it. It was added and it affected EVERYONE including low lvl to max lvl JUST like Champions in DDo do.

So yes I feel I can compare the two. They are totally different games but for purposes of simply showing that if you read the forums on the new WoW expansion people are LOVING how Blizzard is going back to the Vanilla style WoW which was harder and took more time to think things out. Same idea as Champions. People can whine all you want but Champions aren't going anywhere and I am glad for that. Hopefully Turbine will realize they dialed champions back to far and they will upgrade them again.

[Aletys]

People came back because there was a new expansion, period.



Agreed, that is one of the issues, I never tested champions on Lama either.
Maybe they should have done a trial run of champions on the live server? Just throwing an idea out here, I know it's probably horrible

Actually, that's a great idea. If they had limited the champions to the new U24 quests, they would have had a chance to get feedback on them and re-evaluate whether they are a good approach for addressing difficulty & challenge issues. By ramming them down our throats, game wide, all they got was howls of outrage, and rightly so. Forcing this rather poorly designed and implemented change on players across the board was asking for it to be rejected wholesale by a large proportion of the player base. And by insisting that this is the way it's going to be, they've made it difficult for themselves to admit they botched it, and to withdraw it until such a time that they have something better.

[Sehenry03]

Zombies and Skeletons I think should be eligible for certain 'champion' buffs. After all, the necro or priest who made them could have put some extra juice into them. But nothing 'tactics' based. Mostly procs or resists/absorbs.

I understand everyones theories behind which monsters should be able to be champions...

Aren't you all over thinking them though? This is agame based around magic. Not reality. So a skeleton is suppose to be mindless I get that...but we're talking about magic. I don't need the game to make sense in every sense of the word as long as the game works. If they want that ooze to be a champion then by all means. A champion simply means it is tougher to me...not intelligent. I still favor giving random buffs to all champions as I like the idea the challenge will bring.

[Aletys]

No WoW does not have new content affect old content which is why I don't play it.

As to your second point...I can easily draw parallels because:
... And as to your point does wow add stuff that affects everyone? yes. They added a system requiring people to meet certain standards before they can do certain raids. Early in WoW ANYONE could join any raid as long as you were flagged. Later they added a point system to your gear. If you had a high enough gear lvl THEN you could join certain raids. Some hated it and some loved it. It was added and it affected EVERYONE including low lvl to max lvl JUST like Champions in DDo do.

So yes I feel I can compare the two. They are totally different games but for purposes of simply showing that if you read the forums on the new WoW expansion people are LOVING how Blizzard is going back to the Vanilla style WoW which was harder and took more time to think things out. Same idea as Champions. People can whine all you want but Champions aren't going anywhere and I am glad for that. Hopefully Turbine will realize they dialed champions back to far and they will upgrade them again.

I disagree on your assumptions. From what I've been told, DDO has added similar restrictions on to which players can play which content, based on level, and while some folks didn't like it, it was accepted. That is most definitely not the same as changing the existing content, which is the issue here, and changing it without adequate testing is even worse.

Perhaps on WoW all the players migrate to the new content and the old content is rarely run, but for the most part that's not the case in DDO. Further, as you stated, they are completely different games, with very different expectations from their respective player bases. Unlike what you describe being posted on Blizzard's forums, where the player base apparently mostly likes the changes in WoW's new content, a large proportion of the player base here clearly does not like the champions. If we wanted to play a game like WoW, that's what we'd be playing. We're not, we're playing DDO.

[lethargos]

Korthos sacrifices lvl1 quest SOLO elite.
Encountered a regular saguagin champion, not orange. It had 530hp !
I think it had about 5xhp of normal sahuagin. Thats a bit excessive. Its a freakin lvl1 quest.
Il be following coming champions while leveling with interest...

[Sehenry03]

I disagree on your assumptions. From what I've been told, DDO has added similar restrictions on to which players can play which content, based on level, and while some folks didn't like it, it was accepted. That is most definitely not the same as changing the existing content, which is the issue here, and changing it without adequate testing is even worse.

Perhaps on WoW all the players migrate to the new content and the old content is rarely run, but for the most part that's not the case in DDO. Further, as you stated, they are completely different games, with very different expectations from their respective player bases. Unlike what you describe being posted on Blizzard's forums, where the player base apparently mostly likes the changes in WoW's new content, a large proportion of the player base here clearly does not like the champions. If we wanted to play a game like WoW, that's what we'd be playing. We're not, we're playing DDO.

Well my point wasn't to compare WoW to DDO as in how similar they are. My comparison is that people are liking the new WoW expansion because it is making the game tougher then previous expansions and that they have had a lot of returning players. Yes some are returning simply because it is a new expansion but some are also returning because they WANT to play tougher content not easy mode like it was.

I don't play WoW anymore either as I like DDO. Your argument that we aren't playing WoW and we are playing DDO has NOTHING to do with what I am trying to say.

If people leave because of champions then fine...I wish you all luck. I do feel it will help the game in the long run simply because people want a challenge and DDO has NOT been challenging in a long time. Champions need some serious work but I can see the potential. The game needs SOMETHING done to help its longevity and the path we were on is certainly not a good path.

If WoW can rejuvenate the game with added content and making it tougher then DDO should take a cue. Some good content (Temple of Elemental Evil) and tougher (champions) could very well mean added accounts.

So as far as THAT comparison goes I CAN and I WILL make that and it DOES draw parallels in that regard. If you want to read more into it then knock yourself out.

Oh and no...DDO does NOT have anything remotely similar to WoW as far as restrictions go. They have level minimums but they are easy to meet. You might want to find better sources....maybe the ones you are using are the same ones saying Champions are the end of DDO?

[Inoukchuk]

Well my point wasn't to compare WoW to DDO as in how similar they are. My comparison is that people are liking the new WoW expansion because it is making the game tougher then previous expansions and that they have had a lot of returning players. Yes some are returning simply because it is a new expansion but some are also returning because they WANT to play tougher content not easy mode like it was.

I don't play WoW anymore either as I like DDO. Your argument that we aren't playing WoW and we are playing DDO has NOTHING to do with what I am trying to say.

If people leave because of champions then fine...I wish you all luck. I do feel it will help the game in the long run simply because people want a challenge and DDO has NOT been challenging in a long time. Champions need some serious work but I can see the potential. The game needs SOMETHING done to help its longevity and the path we were on is certainly not a good path.

If WoW can rejuvenate the game with added content and making it tougher then DDO should take a cue. Some good content (Temple of Elemental Evil) and tougher (champions) could very well mean added accounts.

So as far as THAT comparison goes I CAN and I WILL make that and it DOES draw parallels in that regard. If you want to read more into it then knock yourself out.

Oh and no...DDO does NOT have anything remotely similar to WoW as far as restrictions go. They have level minimums but they are easy to meet. You might want to find better sources....maybe the ones you are using are the same ones saying Champions are the end of DDO?

I don't necessarily disagree with your stance, but stating that people are returning to WoW because of harder content is a wild, unsubstantiated assumption, and nothing more (unless you want to quibble that you know 2 people that came back for that reason, but who really cares unless you can say you know about a documented 1000 people that came back for that reason).

We have no way of knowing how many people we're likely to lose from harder content or easier content or which one is greater. I know people are likely to get angry and quit if they feel like they can't play anymore, more so than if they feel unchallenged. People who put in literally thousands of hours of play to grind PLs and EDs and EPLs and gear are mentally geared towards tirelessly enduring boredom to begin with, or they wouldn't be in that position. I digress. Working to satisfy both groups is the only reasonable recourse.

I think it may in fact be time for a 5th difficulty level. The fact is that the player base has evolved, and there is now a much wider gulf between the most elite players, the average players, and the newest or most casual players. I think we likely span a wider difficulty spectrum than is currently represented by the game. Just make the rewards such that they are nice, but not required, for this new difficulty level, and don't contribute meaningfully to power creep and further the divide between the aforementioned groups of players.

[JOTMON]

Korthos sacrifices lvl1 quest SOLO elite.
Encountered a regular saguagin champion, not orange. It had 530hp !
I think it had about 5xhp of normal sahuagin. Thats a bit excessive. Its a freakin lvl1 quest.
Il be following coming champions while leveling with interest...

This is another problem that screws new players.

They really need to figure out how make champions only spawn in Epics Hard/Elite and not in Heroics.
Existing content wasn't meant to have Champions and were already designed to be challenging for regular players.

[Sehenry03]

I don't necessarily disagree with your stance, but stating that people are returning to WoW because of harder content is a wild, unsubstantiated assumption, and nothing more (unless you want to quibble that you know 2 people that came back for that reason, but who really cares unless you can say you know about a documented 1000 people that came back for that reason).

We have no way of knowing how many people we're likely to lose from harder content or easier content or which one is greater. I know people are likely to get angry and quit if they feel like they can't play anymore, more so than if they feel unchallenged. People who put in literally thousands of hours of play to grind PLs and EDs and EPLs and gear are mentally geared towards tirelessly enduring boredom to begin with, or they wouldn't be in that position. I digress. Working to satisfy both groups is the only reasonable recourse.

I think it may in fact be time for a 5th difficulty level. The fact is that the player base has evolved, and there is now a much wider gulf between the most elite players, the average players, and the newest or most casual players. I think we likely span a wider difficulty spectrum than is currently represented by the game. Just make the rewards such that they are nice, but not required, for this new difficulty level, and don't contribute meaningfully to power creep and further the divide between the aforementioned groups of players.

WoW has a very active forum. I would encourage everyone to read up non the new expansion and the reviews it is getting from the players.

You are correct that it is impossible to say how many players are returning for any reason...BUT if you read the forums you will a LARGE amount of players loving the new expansion and the number 1 reason is the fact it upped the difficulty value of the game. Again that's all based on forums talking. Lots of players don't use the forums.

So yes it is true to say we don't know for sure why anyone returns or leaves a game...research will show in this case lots of players are returning simply because they love the change. A person where I work is a WoW player and he is totally hooked on WoW again because they increased the challenge. I personally will not return because I hate the gear check system and if ANYONE thinks DDO is a farm fest they need to try WoW as it is the worst game ever for it IMHO.

[Sehenry03]

Ok so no more of subjext banter for me.

Here is a recap for the Dev's on what I would like see done with Champions.

1) No champs til lvl 8 quests period. Let players get some gear and AP's before hitting us with champs.
2) No reward for champs. They should simply be a part of the game and not something we have to be rewarded for.
3) No more meatbag champs. Several people have posted 7-10x hp's champs compared to similar mobs. 5x at most plz maybe 3x
4) Either significantly reduce champs on HH/EH or remove completely and up the amount in HE/EE. Make Elite mean something again
5) Adjust the difficulty of HH/HE in general so people bored with normal get more challenge out of it.
6) Keep the randomness of special abilities. We need HE/EE to be difficult this stops us from planning for every contingency.
7) Take a look at Red Alert. This needs a total do over. 1 group of spawns should not cause a RA.
8) Protection missions including the rats in Necro3 need looked at...champs should not affect these or always make THEM champs.
9) Hirelings need looked at which you know...make them champs (not feasible) or buff somehow to compensate.
10) No checkbox plz. If you add a checkbox remove favor/TP's when box is checked.
Will think of more later =)

[Qhualor]

This is another problem that screws new players.

They really need to figure out how make champions only spawn in Epics Hard/Elite and not in Heroics.
Existing content wasn't meant to have Champions and were already designed to be challenging for regular players.

the devs don't expect new players to be soloing Korthos elites and I agree with them. the learning curve should be normal, but I have suggested no Champions on Korthos. I think learning the game and their characters are a little more important than being scared away by random buffed Champions. they already will be trying to figure out traps without ship buffs and using chest loot gear most likely with little to no plat that they should be spending on cure pots and hires.

[Xionanx]

I have been a long time player of DDO, I keep coming back after breaks.. the first thing I did after coming back this time was to TR my character back to 1 so I can get re-acquainted with DDO. So then "Champions".

In the past 4 days I have leveled from 1 to 13, I have done every quest leveled 1-7 at least once on ELITE and more then 50% of the quests 8 - 10 on ELITE, and this is what I can tell you about champions:

They are a good idea poorly implemented while also being redundant since they already existed from the 1st day DDO launched..

1) Quests already have "named" mobs that randomly spawn in them, these mobs have (supposedly) been properly calibrated to the difficulty of the dungeon and give some kind of XP and/or loot appropriate to thier level (at least at the time they were made.. now 99% of of it junk since you get better loot from "random chest trash".. IE. DIFFERENT ISSUE ENTIRELY).
2) "Champions" power does not scale appropriately to SOME monsters. There are instances where I see a champion crown and proceed to cut that monster down like its not even there.. and then there are times when a champion monster one shots me.. complete lack of consistency in power.
3) "Champions" can RUIN ESCORT QUESTS.. Yep.. had a champ ONE SHOT Brawnpits in "A Small Problem" during the escort phase.. just straight up full HP to dead.. completing a quest should be about Preparedness and tactics.. not about whether you are going to win/loose the champion lottery.
4) BUGS - While its funny seeing non-combat NPCS be champions, some of the other bugs are just bad.. for instance the ever present champion that spawns with only 1/10th of its max health.. I have seen at least 30+ of those over the last few days. (I'm sure there are more bugs in the system that I haven't even noticed)
5) Consistency.. again. when I go into a level 8 Quest on Elite, I am expecting to be fighting level 10'ish monsters, monsters that I can plan for, that I know will have X abilities that can be countered with Y gear/tactic. Champions completely toss that out. Now your one and only plan is "Bring more heals" or "be super over powered due to TR's + twink gear".

I get the impression that champions were implemented to make the game "harder" for people complaining that the game wasn't "hard" anymore, which to me is mind boggling since the only reason they game wouldn't be "hard" is because the player has outgeared and out TR'd the content.. its not supposed to be hard anymore at that point. To me its a solution to a problem of Turbines on design.. (or lack of consistency in design). You give players more power, you then make random trash loot drops more powerful then named items of the same level (remember when the Black Widow Bracers from WW were a "MUST HAVE" item), which in turn makes players TO WELL GEARED who then complain that the content is too easy.. Am I the only one who see's the problem here isn't with lack of "harder" monsters?

Conclusion: Champions as they currently exist are bad
Recommendation: Make a "Master List" of NAMED monsters, balance them ALL individually to be level appropriate at ALL levels of play. (A table with stats for every level shouldn't be too hard to work out). Then assign GOOD NAMED LOOT to these monsters, and have them randomly take the place of monsters in all quests in the game. Give these NEW named monsters XP rewards as well.

Yeah, it would be a little more "work" to make happen, but it would be better in that people still get champions, the champions are now "Cool named mobs" that have a chance to drop something good, and they give bonus XP making players WANT to see them in quests.

[phillymiket]

the devs don't expect new players to be soloing Korthos elites and I agree with them. the learning curve should be normal, but I have suggested no Champions on Korthos. I think learning the game and their characters are a little more important than being scared away by random buffed Champions. they already will be trying to figure out traps without ship buffs and using chest loot gear most likely with little to no plat that they should be spending on cure pots and hires.

Yeah, the scaring away thing. Bad.

I love how Sev is so "purist" about the sanctimony of Elite on Korthos while at the same time releasing game breaking gear/enhancements/destinies one after the other that breaks Elite everywhere else.

Nothing but Elite LFMs = Elite or solo. Neither is very enticing for new players.

Even if it didn't scare someone away, someone is bound to try Elite before they pay for a Sub. Why pay to unlock something you have no hope of using anytime soon?

Running into a 600 HP mob armed with an Eternal Wand of Finger of Fire? Not helping the health of the game.

Let the first few levels be used to lure people into the game like every other single frikin' game with any sense does.

[Sehenry03]

Yeah, the scaring away thing. Bad.

I love how Sev is so "purist" about the sanctimony of Elite on Korthos while at the same time releasing game breaking gear/enhancements/destinies one after the other that breaks Elite everywhere else.

Nothing but Elite LFMs = Elite or solo. Neither is very enticing for new players.

Even if it didn't scare someone away, someone is bound to try Elite before they pay for a Sub. Why pay to unlock something you have no hope of using anytime soon?

Running into a 600 HP mob armed with an Eternal Wand of Finger of Fire? Not helping the health of the game.

Let the first few levels be used to lure people into the game like every other single frikin' game with any sense does.

Normally I am all for Elite being extremely difficult which it should be...but we do need to do something to help newbies trying the game out. I have 2 new players that send me tells when I get on and I invite them to group and explain stuff...but a new player in korthos will be way to lost and won't really know how to do the LFM thing.

I say just don't introduce champions til lvl 6 quests or something. Give them a chance to get used to the game a little

[gravisrs]

Champions are awesome.

Lack of option to turn em off in quest open window (and receive 10% less base exp or so) is not.

[phillymiket]

I say just don't introduce champions til lvl 6 quests or something. Give them a chance to get used to the game a little

Thing is, the game-breaking gear is higher level (if you don't twink and are a 1st life)

The game-breaking Enhancements are later.

The first few levels, for a new player not in a guild, are actually pretty close to the way the game was originally designed.

New players have Echoes and a cheap SLA and cheaper first level spells, things that were needed, otherwise that rogue on Korthos may as well be playing in 2010.