Monster Champion Feedback

[Ayseifn]

Some examples of what I saw after adjustments:
1) 800ish damage from burglars in EE Friends in Low Places a few times (1328 before mitigation) - I didn't die so didn't have time to look at closely but I suspect a combination of crit and sneak attack.
2) 1137 from an orc barbarian (I think it was called berserker) in EE Break in the Ice which is 1887 before mitigation. I did die from this hit. I confirmed in combat log it was critical hit.

I am not suggesting death should not be possible - even one-shotting- but when a random orc does more damage than the boss something seems odd. Also, should a person with 100 fortification have the exact same penalty as someone with 180% fortification?

Hope this is just a combo of damage boost and fort bypass, and that that combo is removed. And yeah, I think they should be able to bypass all that 180% as it helps level the playing field for newer players somewhat. That 180 still works on CR 80 sneak attackers, other champions, raids with SAers, mobs that sunder, challenges, etc., if there was some magic number that'd make you immune to it then we'd all just optimize around that number rather than ever have to deal with it.

I would suggest giving champions EITHER complete fort bypass or damage boosts but not both at the same time. Having both at the same time creates the randomness that leads to one-shotting. Alternatively give the champion armor piercing of some type that doesn't exceed 100% fort bypass so people with high fortification have some benefit from it vs. someone with nothing or with only 100%.

I would even go so far as saying you can raise the damage to previous levels if you adjust this.

Agreed on the either or, similar thing with second wind. I can't see which champ has it in a sea of mobs and it's sometimes very hard to see when it triggers, either tone down second wind or make it much more obvious.

And again armour piercing is bad, just build for it and it becomes a digital thing. Do I have fort that works or fort that doesn't? That's what happened with the sneak attacking mobs that could bypass their CR in fortification over 100%, we just built toons with 100+ max CR fortification so we never saw it.

[Keladon]

The paladin pass made the game insanely easy, champions in their current nerfed state don't bring the game anywhere near close to the difficulty it was before that. The game has also been getting easier and easier since before MotU, so the people that have been complaining about the game getting too easy for years finally got a bone thrown their way that almost made it challenging and just had the rug pulled out from them before they got a chance to really enjoy it.

Yeah I can see why they quit.

So like I said.. they quit because the game became harder? Because that is what happened, the game is harder now than it was pre-U24.

And not everyone plays a paladin, some of us actually like fun builds instead of constantly making the most effective thing out there (fotm) and then complaining the game is too easy.
Same for the prr/mrr changes, not everyone runs around in heavy armor.

[Ayseifn]

So like I said.. they quit because the game became harder? Because that is what happened, the game is harder now than it was pre-U24.

It's easier than it was before U23, easier than it was pre U22, easier than it was pre U21, easier than it was pre U20, easier than it was pre U19, easier than it was pre U18, easier than it was pre U17, easier than it was pre U16, easier than it was pre U15, easier than it was pre U14, easier than it was pre U13 and so on.

Devs say they're adding champs to bring the challenge back but just roll the clock back on difficulty less than one update, it's still laughably easy to that certain group and if the devs fold this easily on something that was almost strong enough to make you not snooze through the game I can see why they quit. Challenging content will never come to DDO if that's the case, the level 30 cap I've been putting my hopes on will be a walk in the park if this is nerf something to go by.

Yeah, can see why they quit.

And not everyone plays a paladin, some of us actually like fun builds instead of constantly making the most effective thing out there (fotm) and then complaining the game is too easy.
Same for the prr/mrr changes, not everyone runs around in heavy armor.

Paladins are fun.

Sorcs are still stronger than pallys, so are the not wai druids and tree builds but yeah I see where you're coming from. Thing is when you make the game harder you unfortunately lose a lot of those gimmick builds, sub optimal builds and classes desperately in need of an update along the wayside. Maybe they were too tough for assassins and battle clerics, but they'll get their day eventually meanwhile content just gets easier and easier for the rest.

[Hendrik]

I guarantee you they lost some subs because the challenge was taken away just a few days after they gave it to us. it seems the players that don't want challenge, something different for a change and prefer rewards to match their path of least resistance are the most vocal cancelling subs and not spending more money on the game.

They lost mine.

8+ year VIP.

[Keladon]

It's easier than it was before U23, easier than it was pre U22, easier than it was pre U21, easier than it was pre U20, easier than it was pre U19, easier than it was pre U18, easier than it was pre U17, easier than it was pre U16, easier than it was pre U15, easier than it was pre U14, easier than it was pre U13 and so on.

Devs say they're adding champs to bring the challenge back but just roll the clock back on difficulty less than one update, it's still laughably easy to that certain group and if the devs fold this easily on something that was almost strong enough to make you not snooze through the game I can see why they quit. Challenging content will never come to DDO if that's the case, the level 30 cap I've been putting my hopes on will be a walk in the park if this is nerf something to go by.

Yeah, can see why they quit.

I see no evidence there, only you saying it's easier. I can say the exact same thing, it's harder than it was before U23, harder than it was pre U22, etc.

"that certain group", yes, they shouldn't balance the game for "that certain group". The vocal minority asked for an increase in difficulty, the majority probably acted by cancelling subs, they reacted to that.
They're in this for the money, believe it or not. So they do what the majority wants, not what "that certain group" wants.

Besides, there is enough challenge to be had, you just choose to avoid it.
Go play a first lifer with lootgen gear and something else than a fotm build.


This reminds of something I read yesterday:

Champions should do more damage to legends and TRs.

Lets say champions hit Z% harder. This % harder should increase X% per past life the target has for melee and ranged, and Y% for spells and cap out. This will provide scaling difficulty to match various players power and gear accumulation. This will prevent first life characters from being 1 shot, and provide both first life and legends with appropriate challenge at the same time, while grouped in the same dungeon.

Hmm, maybe the entire dungeon should scale damage higher against legends and TRs instead.

Please no.

I've spent a couple years now gathering past lives because the build I want can't take the hits already. I'm building it up. If suddenly I take and extra 50% damage because I have a bunch of past lives, then why did I do so many past lives to get all that prr and extra hp to survive?

This seems counter intuitive to me.

People want to become stronger and gather past lives so the game becomes easier.
It's the same with the outcry for more challenge, the challenge is there and now people are asking for more rewards.. so they can become stronger again and negate the increase in challenge.

Paladins are fun.

Sorcs are still stronger than pallys, so are the not wai druids and tree builds but yeah I see where you're coming from. Thing is when you make the game harder you unfortunately lose a lot of those gimmick builds, sub optimal builds and classes desperately in need of an update along the wayside. Maybe they were too tough for assassins and battle clerics, but they'll get their day eventually meanwhile content just gets easier and easier for the rest.

This is exactly something I'm also worried about, DDO should give you build freedom, not the illusion of build freedom.
You should be able to play what you like or the class you like, not the class that is the strongest at the moment.

I play a TWF ranger, I saw the 'exploit' wolf form build and thought about it for a while, but that thing is just stacking bugs on bugs.. on things that are not WAI.
So yes, it's strong or even overpowered, but is that really something you want to force people into?

One last thing: I'm in favor of adding more difficulty, but don't force people who don't want it or can't handle it, into it. Add an extra difficulty, or remove casual and replace it with legendary/mythic/insane, whatever.

[Connman]

... if the devs fold this easily on something that was almost strong enough to make you not snooze through the game I can see why they quit. Challenging content will never come to DDO if that's the case, the level 30 cap I've been putting my hopes on will be a walk in the park if this is nerf something to go by.

Yeah, can see why they quit....

It really makes you wonder if the guys that run this game aren't very similar to the creator of "THE GAME" in the web series "The Guild" He shows up in the later seasons but basically, he reads every post and every tweet related to "THE GAME" and responds in the most reactionary way, throwing hours and hours of work away because of a couple unfavorable posts...

And Yes I know there are more than just a couple of people that are unhappy, just noticing the parallels is all.

[Qhualor]

You mean people cancelled their subs because they upped the difficulty, but then lowered the spawn chance of champions, still making the difficulty higher than before?

So those people cancelled because the difficulty was increased.. like they asked?

no, they provided a challenge that some of us longed for the past few years and in just a few days reduced that challenge almost to nothing because some people were very vocal about having to pause before a fight, use tactics and interfered with their progression. it didn't look good to some people with the devs quick reaction without even allowing people more time to get used to Champions and better testing. the devs are famous for swinging pendulums too far to either side and has problems with finding a good middle ground that both sides can be happy with.

[Qhualor]

They lost mine.

8+ year VIP.

I wasn't going to say you told me you did, but there are others I know that said the same thing and wont say their name unless they say its ok.

maybe now that the duping has been put down, as far as I know right now, there will be an end game sort of because its pointless to invest in a TR grind with challenge in its current state. I see no reason to acquire character power when elite has to be easy enough to complete for any type of player and virtually no fail.

[Keladon]

no, they provided a challenge that some of us longed for the past few years and in just a few days reduced that challenge almost to nothing because some people were very vocal about having to pause before a fight, use tactics and interfered with their progression. it didn't look good to some people with the devs quick reaction without even allowing people more time to get used to Champions and better testing. the devs are famous for swinging pendulums too far to either side and has problems with finding a good middle ground that both sides can be happy with.

"interfered with their progression"... If people are getting 1-shotted, then yes, that feature is broken, there is no challenge in getting 1-shotted. Same with multiple orange champions spawning and killing a party in a few second.
There is no using tactics if you die before you can do anything.

But the fact still remains, people are leaving and have left because the difficulty increased, it's not as high as it was when U24 was released, but it's still higher than before.
And apparently it's both those that dislike champions and those that have issues with the difficulty of champions. So .. why do we even have champions? People are leaving for various reasons related to them.
Cancelled subs because they're too hard, cancelled subs because they're not hard enough. Makes the champion system look like a big failure.

[Qhualor]

"interfered with their progression"... If people are getting 1-shotted, then yes, that feature is broken, there is no challenge in getting 1-shotted. Same with multiple orange champions spawning and killing a party in a few second.
There is no using tactics if you die before you can do anything.

But the fact still remains, people are leaving and have left because the difficulty increased, it's not as high as it was when U24 was released, but it's still higher than before.
And apparently it's both those that dislike champions and those that have issues with the difficulty of champions. So .. why do we even have champions? People are leaving for various reasons related to them.
Cancelled subs because they're too hard, cancelled subs because they're not hard enough. Makes the champion system look like a big failure.

you can still get one shotted by non Champions. it happened to me 2 days ago doing EE DDtW. green dragon did her spin move and bam, dead with a full 750 hp. depending on your saves and hp, disintegrates from casters and beholders can one shot you. Tempest Spine has mobs that use Slay Living. the game is full of things that can one shot you and we have seen these complaints over the years. now that we have Champions that deal big damage, its the same complaints. I still have not been one shotted by any Champion. I have taken some big hits, but never "insta killed".

I never said anything about spawn rates. even those that were all for Champions even said the spawn rates were too high and the Champion did need some tweaks. we just asked for some tweaks, not to have them nerfed down to just a little tougher than trash mobs making people go right back to the way the game was played pre-Champions. you treat them now just like any other trash mob.

the difficulty increased for 3 days and nerfed back to the way it was before. yes, people have said exactly the same things that others were saying if the devs didn't nerf Champions. some have said they stopped spending money, some have left the game, some have cancelled subs and some are on a break. they had a great idea to bring back some variety and challenge but the devs reacted too quickly. its not the first time that players have griped about how tough certain parts of the game is. there is something completely wrong with the game if the toughest difficulty is almost guaranteed to be no fail by all types of players. that's not a problem with Champions. that's a problem with the player base and the devs not putting their foot down.

[Ayseifn]

I see no evidence there, only you saying it's easier. I can say the exact same thing, it's harder than it was before U23, harder than it was pre U22, etc.

"that certain group", yes, they shouldn't balance the game for "that certain group". The vocal minority asked for an increase in difficulty, the majority probably acted by cancelling subs, they reacted to that.
They're in this for the money, believe it or not. So they do what the majority wants, not what "that certain group" wants.

Besides, there is enough challenge to be had, you just choose to avoid it.
Go play a first lifer with lootgen gear and something else than a fotm build.

That's like saying just build FOTM builds if you're struggling to keep up though, I'd like challenging content for my multi TRed duder. Otherwise what's the point in trying to become stronger?

If the only money left for Turbine is from catering to the lowest common denominator so be it, would like them to say so though so I can move on to something else rather than get baited with stuff like champions or the promise of level 30. There have been quite a few vocal members that find the lack of challenge too much and are leaving, probably not as many as who hate champions though because most of the players looking for a tougher game have already left. Thing is though you could get those players back if they knew they could come back to a challenging game.

In any case Turbine isn't releasing exit poll info or the like so it's all speculation.

This reminds of something I read yesterday:




People want to become stronger and gather past lives so the game becomes easier.
It's the same with the outcry for more challenge, the challenge is there and now people are asking for more rewards.. so they can become stronger again and negate the increase in challenge.

Not really, wanting more challenging content that also rewards you doesn't mean you want those rewards to turn the game into godmode, just take some of the edge off. In RPGs you've always gotten stronger as you've progressed, getting zero reward for the work means you'll just skip putting in the effort just like if the game becomes too easy why bother trying to make your character better.

This is exactly something I'm also worried about, DDO should give you build freedom, not the illusion of build freedom.
You should be able to play what you like or the class you like, not the class that is the strongest at the moment.

I play a TWF ranger, I saw the 'exploit' wolf form build and thought about it for a while, but that thing is just stacking bugs on bugs.. on things that are not WAI.
So yes, it's strong or even overpowered, but is that really something you want to force people into?

One last thing: I'm in favor of adding more difficulty, but don't force people who don't want it or can't handle it, into it. Add an extra difficulty, or remove casual and replace it with legendary/mythic/insane, whatever.

Build freedom is better than it's been in years and it'll only get better as more classes get re balanced. But since this game lets you build whatever abomination you want there will always be outliers if you make content challenging, so if your con based drow wizard is struggling in update 30 to be honest I'll have little sympathy.

You're probably right about the extra difficulty thing, no one complained that epics were too hard or the loot was too hard to acquire initially. It was a whole new game with different rules and those that preferred raiding at cap could and those that preferred TRing and re running heroic could do so unmolested. This change was forced on people however I will say this, Turbine has said that they'll change things quick rather than let the bad changes linger so people don't get used to them. This game went into super easy mode with the Armour Up update and one update later the roll back some of the easiness and people still complain.

[Keladon]

you can still get one shotted by non Champions. it happened to me 2 days ago doing EE DDtW. green dragon did her spin move and bam, dead with a full 750 hp. depending on your saves and hp, disintegrates from casters and beholders can one shot you. Tempest Spine has mobs that use Slay Living. the game is full of things that can one shot you and we have seen these complaints over the years. now that we have Champions that deal big damage, its the same complaints. I still have not been one shotted by any Champion. I have taken some big hits, but never "insta killed".

But none of those were random, you know where they are & what they are capable of.
You learn from those experiences.

Champions are 100% random, you can't prepare, there's no learning curve, it's just luck - being lucky isn't wat should determine if you succeed or fail.
1 champions can be nothing but extra hp, while the next one can be deadly and yes, can kill you in a few second before you have time to react. It doesn't have to be 1 hit, if something can land 2 hits and kill you before you can do anything it's not better. It doesn't even have to happen a lot, that fact that it's happening is enough.

[Keladon]

That's like saying just build FOTM builds if you're struggling to keep up though, I'd like challenging content for my multi TRed duder. Otherwise what's the point in trying to become stronger?

...

Not really, wanting more challenging content that also rewards you doesn't mean you want those rewards to turn the game into godmode, just take some of the edge off. In RPGs you've always gotten stronger as you've progressed, getting zero reward for the work means you'll just skip putting in the effort just like if the game becomes too easy why bother trying to make your character better.

You become stronger so content can be easier, otherwise what is the point? There is no market for content tailored for triple completionists.
And people asked for more challenge.. now they're asking for more rewards, because apparently noone want extra challenge unless they can also get extra rewards.
Did people get extra rewards for the game being more difficult in the past?

Build freedom is better than it's been in years and it'll only get better as more classes get re balanced. But since this game lets you build whatever abomination you want there will always be outliers if you make content challenging, so if your con based drow wizard is struggling in update 30 to be honest I'll have little sympathy.

WAS better, if difficulty goes up or if they keep introducing random features like this, build freedom will go down.
But why should they rebalance classes? People would complain that the game is becoming too easy again if they do.

This game went into super easy mode with the Armour Up update and one update later the roll back some of the easiness and people still complain.

Last time I played was before the armor update, I came back a few days before U24, the game feels harder to me now than it did a year or even 2 ago.

[Qhualor]

But none of those were random, you know where they are & what they are capable of.
You learn from those experiences.

Champions are 100% random, you can't prepare, there's no learning curve, it's just luck - being lucky isn't wat should determine if you succeed or fail.
1 champions can be nothing but extra hp, while the next one can be deadly and yes, can kill you in a few second before you have time to react. It doesn't have to be 1 hit, if something can land 2 hits and kill you before you can do anything it's not better. It doesn't even have to happen a lot, that fact that it's happening is enough.

of course you can prepare. you know they can hit hard and you know you will see them in every quest. use caution, use tactics, use the strengths of your group, use team play. Champions are random, but they are expected to be seen in every quest and you know wiki will eventually list all of their "random" buffs. random in DDO has its limits. this is so much more fun and more interesting brining back group effort play instead of the current face roll over mobs and dive head first into mobs without much thought.

[Ayseifn]

You become stronger so content can be easier, otherwise what is the point? There is no market for content tailored for triple completionists.
And people asked for more challenge.. now they're asking for more rewards, because apparently noone want extra challenge unless they can also get extra rewards.
Did people get extra rewards for the game being more difficult in the past?

Which is why I've tried to advance the idea of champions being equally rough on triple completionists as they are on first lifers as well as new toons from vets or whatever else.

True seeing good against the hoarders of displace clickies
Fort bypass good against the PL/loot farmers
random spawns and buffs on them, good against the people that've run that quest into the ground

Great start but could use more IMO, also not seeing your issue with harder content giving better rewards.

Edit: also yes, we got more rewards for more difficult content in the past. Epics used to be much more challenging and they were the only place to get good level capped gear.

WAS better, if difficulty goes up or if they keep introducing random features like this, build freedom will go down.
But why should they rebalance classes? People would complain that the game is becoming too easy again if they do.

Honestly? To make them more enjoyable.

Bards are really fun now and so are paladins. I can make a CC bard, a DPS bard, a buffing bard or a DPS paladin, a tank paladin, a SnB DPS paladin or numerous other builds that work well with groups and I'd feel helpful while playing them. Flip side is they're adding more power though so quests really do need to get harder to compensate.

Once every class is no longer miles behind sorcs the difficulty should go up to put it back to where it was, well close to at any rate.

Last time I played was before the armor update, I came back a few days before U24, the game feels harder to me now than it did a year or even 2 ago.

I came back around the same time after 5 months off or so. Pre armour update I found I could solo most epics with some concentration but after it I could just zerg them pretty easily. Champs brought that trepidation back initially but now it's back to zerging :/

[Hoglum]

For slayer areas, activate the hard button and have that put champs in there as they are.

Then put in champs as they were for elite slayer.

A champ in hard slayer could give 1.5 kills (3 for every 2) while a champ in elite gives 2 kills.

[Albinosaurus]

I guarantee you they lost some subs because the challenge was taken away just a few days after they gave it to us. it seems the players that don't want challenge, something different for a change and prefer rewards to match their path of least resistance are the most vocal cancelling subs and not spending more money on the game.

I guarantee they lost A LOT more because of champs in the first place, but you still have missed the point. I'm not saying that they can't be in the game. I'm saying that I don't want to deal with them. Just make them optional. There isn't a good reason (and yes, I've read the many that were put forth in this thread) to not have it optional. The benefits FAR outweigh any negatives.

However, the people who want to feel/sound "elite" and condescendingly talking down to other players (like you have this whole time) don't help anything either. It's too bad, too, because when eventually you've driven everyone else out--you know, the ones who keep the game alive--you won't have a game left to play, because Turbine won't be able to keep the lights on.

[Impaqt]

I guarantee they lost A LOT more because of champs in the first place, but you still have missed the point. I'm not saying that they can't be in the game. I'm saying that I don't want to deal with them. Just make them optional. There isn't a good reason (and yes, I've read the many that were put forth in this thread) to not have it optional. The benefits FAR outweigh any negatives.

However, the people who want to feel/sound "elite" and condescendingly talking down to other players (like you have this whole time) don't help anything either. It's too bad, too, because when eventually you've driven everyone else out--you know, the ones who keep the game alive--you won't have a game left to play, because Turbine won't be able to keep the lights on.

How could you guarantee such a thing?

[Keladon]

Edit: also yes, we got more rewards for more difficult content in the past. Epics used to be much more challenging and they were the only place to get good level capped gear.
/

Epics were not challenging, you got your cookie cutter builds and just finished them all in almost the same way.
People soloed epics back then too.

The big difference is that epics were an endgame back then, it's been a long time since we had anything you could call endgame.

You didn't get any extra rewards for running things like elite back then, so why should you get them now?

of course you can prepare. you know they can hit hard and you know you will see them in every quest. use caution, use tactics, use the strengths of your group, use team play. Champions are random, but they are expected to be seen in every quest and you know wiki will eventually list all of their "random" buffs. random in DDO has its limits. this is so much more fun and more interesting brining back group effort play instead of the current face roll over mobs and dive head first into mobs without much thought.

No, you can't prepare for random, that's the whole idea of creating something random. And there's no sense in listing all their "random buffs" because it will still be different every run, some runs will still be easy while some will be incredibly hard. You don't know where they will pop up or with what combination of buffs or even how many. It's like rolling a dice that adds to your selected difficulty, it can go from easy to impossible, it's all luck based.

Like I said, there is no learning curve here, encountering them has only thought me I'm better of zerging quests or running past them invisible, something I never did before we had champions.
So this feature just created another zerger.. but that was the point of champions right? Oh wait..

[Qhualor]

I guarantee they lost A LOT more because of champs in the first place, but you still have missed the point. I'm not saying that they can't be in the game. I'm saying that I don't want to deal with them. Just make them optional. There isn't a good reason (and yes, I've read the many that were put forth in this thread) to not have it optional. The benefits FAR outweigh any negatives.

However, the people who want to feel/sound "elite" and condescendingly talking down to other players (like you have this whole time) don't help anything either. It's too bad, too, because when eventually you've driven everyone else out--you know, the ones who keep the game alive--you won't have a game left to play, because Turbine won't be able to keep the lights on.

I talked down to 1 player the day the Champions were nerfed. I lost my head for a moment and got my hand slapped.

ive continuously been posting about the vocal community that justifies why we cant have challenge at the very minimum on elite difficulty because it interferes with favor and character progression. I called some hypocrites because the last few years the same people who are against Champions are also the ones that asked for more challenge. any time the devs do something to balance out the game or implement something that is tough, it gets nerfed down after a lot of ranting and threats. at the same time after a lot of ranting and threats they want more character power trivializing the game. we have gotten too used to the face roll/zerg/solo on the toughest difficulty for too long and it interferes with the players who actually want the game to be more fun and interesting. for some of us it was a welcome addition, but it quickly was taken away.

ive been hearing since 2009 that if Turbine doesn't cater to casual play that they will be at risk of keeping the lights on. the population has been going down since they started giving us power creep toys and making the game easier seriously reducing the fail chance over the past few years. Turbine has been listening to the wrong per cent of the player base for too long. couple that with trying to monetize off from it, it hasn't made the game better. it has made the game worse. many challenge seekers are now gone, maybe pop back in once in awhile, but no longer dedicated to the game like they used to be. Turbine needs to start thinking about all play styles and not the ones that are bringing the game further down.