Monster Champion Feedback

[Shadow2024]

I've tested Champions for some times now and i can say i love it!

I read all the posts on lamania and was worried. I didnt meet any impossible bosses, but I got killed a few times. Good balance to me =)

Today I noticed there was less Champions and i thought the ratio was better that way (or it was pure luck).
While running the Catacombs Pack, i noticed also that the Champions spawn already damaged.

I wasnt sure if it was my hireling attacking before i can select them or not. But after all those quests, I'm pretty positive they spawn damaged. (Maybe their champion extra-life isnt healed because they are undeads??)<-supposition

I didnt test that on living creatures.


For me, Champion System is a success! Good job~

[Faltout]

And then you have to kill everything in a room and a champion that's ranged immune spawns on an unreachable ledge..

There's so much that could go wrong when you start giving champions immunity to certain playstyles.
It sounds like a good idea, but in reality it would cause nothing but issues... and frustration.

I know not all combat styles are created equal, but using an already unbalanced & random feature to correct that would not be the best solution.

Of course lots of things can go wrong. Changes always need careful planning. But it's not the buff idea that is wrong, it's how it can be implemented. For example, many things can go wrong in the present game as well: A monster you must kill get stuck in a wall (some Shroud runs come to mind, along with beyond the rift, servants of the overlord, etc.), a chest that a champion spawned stuck inside the floor, invisible walls around objects that you must break (Mired in Kobolds), actions happening too fast not triggering events (Gianthold Tor), champion enemies defeating NPCs that were supposed to be tougher (Tomb of the Tormented, ...), etc. It's not that the thinking behind the mechanics was wrong, it's just how interaction with other mechanics was studied.

btw, I coupled that buff with the "Buffs can't be totally random, each monster needs to have a flag of whether or not it can be a champion" proposal and the "The champion can't have the only tactic that can be used at him because of the quest mechanics countered" example.

[Keladon]

Of course lots of things can go wrong. Changes always need careful planning. But it's not the buff idea that is wrong, it's how it can be implemented. For example, many things can go wrong in the present game as well: A monster you must kill get stuck in a wall (some Shroud runs come to mind, along with beyond the rift, servants of the overlord, etc.), a chest that a champion spawned stuck inside the floor, invisible walls around objects that you must break (Mired in Kobolds), actions happening too fast not triggering events (Gianthold Tor), champion enemies defeating NPCs that were supposed to be tougher (Tomb of the Tormented, ...), etc. It's not that the thinking behind the mechanics was wrong, it's just how interaction with other mechanics was studied.

btw, I coupled that buff with the "Buffs can't be totally random, each monster needs to have a flag of whether or not it can be a champion" proposal.

That is probably how it should have been in the first place, yet I get the feeling they'll never do it that way because the work involved.
They're trying to promote the random element of champions, while that is actually one of the biggest flaws of this whole feature.

And yes, you just gave some nice examples of why this whole champions idea wasn't really thought through.

[Qhualor]

No matter to me with the exception of the "wall of HP" champions pre nerf I did not have a problem with the difficulty at least in Epics. The rest were speed bumps before the nerf and are speed bumps after the nerf.

Maybe in Heroics they could have been scaled a bit as levels increased.


Still nerf/pre nerf Champions does not address the unbalanced rewards system.



Give All Champions equal rewards or rewards chance based on level of quest rather than colored named only will bring more balance.

To be clear the champions present a chance to bring the rewards of running EE back to the front of running EN as the current implementation EN (after BB has been exhausted) is more rewarding than EE thanks to low XP increase and the movement away from Tiered loot.


Outside of +6 tome chance in certain Raids there is little that can be earned for running EE that can not be had more efficiently in EN.

the devs seem to be very interested in a token system. depending on the rewards for token turn ins, that alone could be incentive enough to run EE/HE beyond xp, favor, challenge. I don't know of anyone that was running elite more because of the chance at Champion chests. until they grow in power, I see no reason for any reward.

running EN may be the fastest and most efficient way to level and if that's what most players were running, there probably wouldn't be so much stink over rewards for killing random Lts. in mob groups and demanding a nerf to their power.

[Oxarhamar]

the devs seem to be very interested in a token system. depending on the rewards for token turn ins, that alone could be incentive enough to run EE/HE beyond xp, favor, challenge. I don't know of anyone that was running elite more because of the chance at Champion chests. until they grow in power, I see no reason for any reward.

running EN may be the fastest and most efficient way to level and if that's what most players were running, there probably wouldn't be so much stink over rewards for killing random Lts. in mob groups and demanding a nerf to their power.

A good amount of those asking for nerf were either running Heriocs or felt EE was challenging enough. If there was a proper reward in place then there might not be as much complaint over addition of challenge (for those already challenged) with no reward.

There have been threads already of guild farming certain quests for Champion Chests to get tons of renown fast.

You already know EN is the most efficient way to level it also has the same rewards named loot wise as EE the is little incentive and champions are the perfect way to turn this around.

[deeeathbladee]

I love champions, while not the most original difficulty ramp I've seen in games, I certainly like the extra challenge and the willingness of the devs to change the game in this way.

I do kinda agree that more can be done to make me excited to see a champion such as any of these:

1. Unique loot at level gear that can only be found in champion chests

2. Collectable drop on champion that is unique for perhaps different augments than currently available

3. Essence of a Champion, since I love DDO's item crafting system, why not have an item in champion chest that is used in either current or a different crafting system?

4. Specific Monster Manual entry for champions, it would certainly be intensive but if there was a monster manual for champions then I'd be excited to both hunt down old quests and new to fill it up for perhaps unique rewards and a sense of completion

In the end, I just would love to see a unique reward system tied to champions that I can genuinely care about.

[Albinosaurus]

Until champs are optional, I'm out.

I've cancelled my sub and haven't logged in since U24 hit (after I tried questing with them). You can nerf them all you want, I don't care, because I don't want to deal with them in the first place.

Congrats, Turbine. You lost another customer.

[Holleyz]

This guy here said in his post that it is not about the challenge but rather the rewards. He must be a prophet because just take a look:--------->

THIS is what they NEED to do. Add a level above Elite but it does not pay out any more XP than Elite, It does not offer any better loot than Elite, If does not pay more favor than Elite. Since the Elitist are just soooooo bored because they are just soooooo powerful with all their completionist past lifes and all they WANT IS THE CHALLENGE, then give it to them. IF all they want is the "CHALLENGE" then give them JUST that. But. I guarantee you that its not JUST the challenge that they want. Oh no They want even more Powerful gear. Watch you will see them say this: "well if it doesn't offer any better XP or LOOT then theres no point in me running it" That's because they aren't looking for a "Challenge"

In my opinion, with increased challenge, there should be increased reward.

Facts:
Currently there is sometimes some additional trash loot from some champions. Personally, I think this is quite a bad reward.
There is also some people who think it's fun with the increased challenge, and some people hate it.
Some peeps wants the initial challenge level of the champions (as originally released), others wants them gone completely.
We know that Turbine can dynamically change the difficulty levels on things like spawn rate, damage increase etc etc.

Suggested solution:
At quest start, at quest entry screen, have a combo-box available that lets the group leader select the difficulty of the champions from a range from 0 to 100. 0 would mean no champions appearing at all, 20 could be as currently working, 40 could be as initially released, and the rest up to 100 scaled accordingly. The scale is just an example, and would probably have to be adjusted, but highest level should mean virtually impossible to complete.
Awards: award according to the selected scale, e.g. 0 would mean no reward, 20 would mean some trash loot as today, 50 = moar xp bonus at quest completion etc etc (just examples to explain the idea).

Result:
This solution would solve most problems people are currently compaining about.
Casual players hating the champions can play without them.
Players who enjoys the additional challenge can ramp it up to as much as they can handle.
The greater the challenge, the greater the reward.
It will probably encourage grouping when people who wants extra xp bonus can make it a bit easier on a higher difficulty by bringing friends along.

This would work.
Could add a tierd point system within the tables, so better effects from each table is worth more points, set a point value for chest vs no chest.
Weak champions = no chest, tough champions.. get a chest. ( and fix the chests so they don't spawn in the air out of rach, or in a wall, or under the floor)

a side note: One thing that should not exist is complete fortification bypass, remove this. Nothing should be able to ignore fortification completely..
I have no issue with giving a high value bypass, but to completely ignore fortification results in one-shot kills which shouldn't happen coming from trash mobs against decently built/geared toons.

How about working on Champion rewards?

As currently implemented.

Quests heavy with Orange/Red named like Devils Assualt 22 EH 23EE can drop a load of chests.

Vs.

Much higher level quests like Stormhorns, ENecro which have fewer Ornge/Red named give little to no reward.

This is unbalanced.

Besides trash chests are still trash give us something interesting. XP/Renown auto grant per Champ killed or something unique to Champs!

and this is only from a few that I seen on the pages next to his post. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm a challenge really? OR the rewards?

[Qhualor]

Until champs are optional, I'm out.

I've cancelled my sub and haven't logged in since U24 hit (after I tried questing with them). You can nerf them all you want, I don't care, because I don't want to deal with them in the first place.

Congrats, Turbine. You lost another customer.

I guarantee you they lost some subs because the challenge was taken away just a few days after they gave it to us. it seems the players that don't want challenge, something different for a change and prefer rewards to match their path of least resistance are the most vocal cancelling subs and not spending more money on the game.

[JOTMON]

This guy here said in his post that it is not about the challenge but rather the rewards. He must be a prophet because just take a look:--------->
and this is only from a few that I seen on the pages next to his post. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm a challenge really? OR the rewards?

Better Challenge= better loot . pretty simple.

The most difficult content should = the best loot.

Nibels pic covered it pretty well. pretty much the basis of any game..

Most people asking for "more challenge" are actually asking for "more shinies", but think that playing for shinies is somehow bad.
This comic strip
resume this kind of thinking well.

[BDog77]

I guarantee you they lost some subs because the challenge was taken away just a few days after they gave it to us. it seems the players that don't want challenge, something different for a change and prefer rewards to match their path of least resistance are the most vocal cancelling subs and not spending more money on the game.

Maybe they lost some subs, but I think they lost a lot more with the introduction of Champions. Looking at the timeline tells me that, and since the challenge has not gone back up, I'm guessing they feel comfortable with the number of subs lost since the nerf.

[Braegan]

If you are serious and would like some help, my free time is limited, but I will do what I can.

Apologies, but I revoke my invitation to help.

Best of luck to you.

[Hobgoblin]

just as a note -

i liked the champions pre change.

i like them now.

my question becomes if this part is wai:

Just ran the pit on elite. one of the warlords had 2400 hp. while the norm guy had 295 right next to him.

at level 3 i had 98 hp. ran into a champ muck and took 404 points of damage.

that doesn't seem reasonable or wai

thanks for looking

[redoubt]

A good amount of those asking for nerf were either running Heriocs or felt EE was challenging enough. If there was a proper reward in place then there might not be as much complaint over addition of challenge (for those already challenged) with no reward.

There have been threads already of guild farming certain quests for Champion Chests to get tons of renown fast.

You already know EN is the most efficient way to level it also has the same rewards named loot wise as EE the is little incentive and champions are the perfect way to turn this around.

I always figured EH was the most efficient. Better first time bonus and streak and the time difference between EN and EH seemed nominal. (Time difference between EH and EE is the one that seemed high.)

I did feel that EE was challenging enough even before champions, though I realize that for some people it was to easy.

I've suggested a few times to add an xp reward per champion. My suggestion was a 1/2/3% spawn rate on a tough champion and have it worth 10% base xp (kinda like an optional.) Give capped players commendations (and create new things that you can trade commendations for.) If it took me 10% longer to run the quest because each champion but I got 10% more xp because of each champion then most everything balances out. xp/min remains unchanged and the challenge goes up. (favor/min goes down some, but I don't see a way to make all three things go the right direction).

Though, on the favor topic, I think that the quests that are both heroic and epic should be listed twice in the compendium and give separate favor for heroic and epic. You are better off running quest on heroic elite and then EN. That seems backwards to me (that the higher level version doesn't give more favor.) This would also provide additional incentive to run both heroic and epic at harder difficulties. Thus more reward for the greater challenge. Isn't this what everyone is clamoring for?

[Ayseifn]

I always figured EH was the most efficient. Better first time bonus and streak and the time difference between EN and EH seemed nominal. (Time difference between EH and EE is the one that seemed high.)

I did feel that EE was challenging enough even before champions, though I realize that for some people it was to easy.

I've suggested a few times to add an xp reward per champion. My suggestion was a 1/2/3% spawn rate on a tough champion and have it worth 10% base xp (kinda like an optional.) Give capped players commendations (and create new things that you can trade commendations for.) If it took me 10% longer to run the quest because each champion but I got 10% more xp because of each champion then most everything balances out. xp/min remains unchanged and the challenge goes up. (favor/min goes down some, but I don't see a way to make all three things go the right direction).

So if I'm invising Claw of Vulkoor and one of the guardians is a champ I either lose the end chest or the 10% XP? What about quests like DA and VoN 2 with a ton of orange nameds at the start, would it be good xp/min to just farm that bit and reset over and over? Or how about NPC champs, if I kill the one in Weapon Shipment do I get 10% XP before the quest fails?

Just seems like another thing that'd need tweaking on a per quest basis.

Though, on the favor topic, I think that the quests that are both heroic and epic should be listed twice in the compendium and give separate favor for heroic and epic. You are better off running quest on heroic elite and then EN. That seems backwards to me (that the higher level version doesn't give more favor.) This would also provide additional incentive to run both heroic and epic at harder difficulties. Thus more reward for the greater challenge. Isn't this what everyone is clamoring for?

Miss out on first time bonus in epics if you do them on heroic, there still isn't enough epic content IMO so I still keep VoNs and such for epic.

[Oxarhamar]

I always figured EH was the most efficient. Better first time bonus and streak and the time difference between EN and EH seemed nominal. (Time difference between EH and EE is the one that seemed high.)

I did feel that EE was challenging enough even before champions, though I realize that for some people it was to easy.

I've suggested a few times to add an xp reward per champion. My suggestion was a 1/2/3% spawn rate on a tough champion and have it worth 10% base xp (kinda like an optional.) Give capped players commendations (and create new things that you can trade commendations for.) If it took me 10% longer to run the quest because each champion but I got 10% more xp because of each champion then most everything balances out. xp/min remains unchanged and the challenge goes up. (favor/min goes down some, but I don't see a way to make all three things go the right direction).

Though, on the favor topic, I think that the quests that are both heroic and epic should be listed twice in the compendium and give separate favor for heroic and epic. You are better off running quest on heroic elite and then EN. That seems backwards to me (that the higher level version doesn't give more favor.) This would also provide additional incentive to run both heroic and epic at harder difficulties. Thus more reward for the greater challenge. Isn't this what everyone is clamoring for?

Yeah EH Bravery bonus is ok if EE is too time consuming. Still its after Bravery bonus such as in ETR where it does not reset that EH & EE fall farther behind EN.


Your reward suggestion is alright I wouldn't argue with that but, I'd like to see something for each Champion even if it was a bit lower in reward so they could add up.

The main problem with Champ XP and any other bonus being based on a % of base XP is all quest XP is not created equal there are many that would still lag behind. None the less I like the idea better than nothing.


As for Favor I agree running a quest on EE should grant more Favor than HE but, the Devs would have to balance the favor rewards a bit and give away more free favor TP (unless they just lowered Heroic Favor which I don't think would go over well) Kind of puts them in a jam.

[DADDY-MAC]

DDO comes out with what I think is a good upgrade to the game but you have made the game were it is better to be in a group in a an environment were it is hard to find groups because of the low server populations. This game will never reach its full potential until were are all playing together on the same sever. One can just imagine.

[Keladon]

I guarantee you they lost some subs because the challenge was taken away just a few days after they gave it to us. it seems the players that don't want challenge, something different for a change and prefer rewards to match their path of least resistance are the most vocal cancelling subs and not spending more money on the game.

You mean people cancelled their subs because they upped the difficulty, but then lowered the spawn chance of champions, still making the difficulty higher than before?

So those people cancelled because the difficulty was increased.. like they asked?

[slarden]

Some Champions cannot bypass Displacement or Blur. Champions do not inherently bypass stealth.

We still may work with the numbers for what percentage of champions get buffs like True Seeing or See Invisible, but it's not 100% (and hasn't been). It does vary based on some factors, such as being orange named.

I think the complete fortification bypass is the reason we are seeing some very large #s from time to time. With the adjustments made it will happen less, but with my 66 PRR I was still seeing. I ran all quests in eveningstar EE to complete the 5 sagas except WGU which I VIP skipped. I only died once from an 1137 damage hit, but I saw some big #s even with the damage reduction.

Some examples of what I saw after adjustments:
1) 800ish damage from burglars in EE Friends in Low Places a few times (1328 before mitigation) - I didn't die so didn't have time to look at closely but I suspect a combination of crit and sneak attack.
2) 1137 from an orc barbarian (I think it was called berserker) in EE Break in the Ice which is 1887 before mitigation. I did die from this hit. I confirmed in combat log it was critical hit.

I am not suggesting death should not be possible - even one-shotting- but when a random orc does more damage than the boss something seems odd. Also, should a person with 100 fortification have the exact same penalty as someone with 180% fortification?

I would suggest giving champions EITHER complete fort bypass or damage boosts but not both at the same time. Having both at the same time creates the randomness that leads to one-shotting. Alternatively give the champion armor piercing of some type that doesn't exceed 100% fort bypass so people with high fortification have some benefit from it vs. someone with nothing or with only 100%.

I would even go so far as saying you can raise the damage to previous levels if you adjust this.

[Ayseifn]

You mean people cancelled their subs because they upped the difficulty, but then lowered the spawn chance of champions, still making the difficulty higher than before?

So those people cancelled because the difficulty was increased.. like they asked?

The paladin pass made the game insanely easy, champions in their current nerfed state don't bring the game anywhere near close to the difficulty it was before that. The game has also been getting easier and easier since before MotU, so the people that have been complaining about the game getting too easy for years finally got a bone thrown their way that almost made it challenging and just had the rug pulled out from them before they got a chance to really enjoy it.

Yeah I can see why they quit.