Monster Champion Feedback

[Sam1313]

Well I don't want to derail a feedback thread any further than it has already. But yeah I agree with you, mostly. 3.5 had some good ideas, but 1st and 2nd ED were the best IMO. If I ever run a table top group again it would be some weird mesh of the three. But THAC0 would deff be part of it

+7 to this. AD&D 1st and 2nd Editions IS the best. thac0 forever

[Albinosaurus]

+7 to this. AD&D 1st and 2nd Editions IS the best. thac0 forever

Meh. I've played both ways, and thac0 is just backwards. I'm glad 3rd+ moved away from it.

[Gljosh]

I ran with a group on Von3 EE, we had little issue with the Champions, except the three Champion Beholders and both optional Beholders that was tough but that's why people buy BF. I normally run EH and I don't mind champions, they fill the need for more difficulty in the game. However, there exist TWO main complaints; difficulty and reward value (run on Hard or Elite and get more-XP or better gear). Champions need to have something as a bonus (slight) or else you still make EN the fastest way to get XP and most gear. I love the idea of Champion tokens, they can be used for (non raid) Epic Crafting, traded in for Comms, or traded in for other (non raid) crafting items.

Now put some Champions in the Raids that drop raid appropriate crafting materials!

[JOTMON]

On a side note I hear people complaining that trash mobs do more damage then raid bosses. That is just plain false.
No monster champion caster can do more damage than Abbot energy burst and Vol Dragon breath.
No monster champion melee can do more damage than EE Mark of death Deathknights.

So in short Monster champions were fine before the nerf made by the devs that are killing their own game.
Yesterday I had a monster champion archer with damage buff in a level 28 EE quest hit me for less than 30 points of damage on my robe wearing caster. Is that some sort of a challenge?

really..?
(Combat): Greater Beholder hit you for a total of 6,059 points of slash damage after 5 were blocked by Good damage reduction.
~ yes, a beholder punked me with slashing damage...who ever heard of a beholder doing 6k slashing damage...its a beholder...
no EE deathknight ever bent me over like that.

(Combat): Xorian Gargoyle hit you for a total of 4,188 points of slash damage after 5 were blocked by Good damage reduction.
(Combat): Xorian Gargoyle hit you for a total of 2,192 points of slash damage after 5 were blocked by Good damage reduction


EE deathwyrm was tough, but I was never one-shotted in there from full life buffed to -5,000 hp.
a tank could hold the deathwyrms (with reasonably decent heals)
We complete EE deathwyrm periodically with very few deaths.
I have had more Champion deaths in the last week than total deaths in the last 6 months.
There is ouch that 500hp hit hurt and jump around to heal/get heals, that can be managed, its the periodic one-shot .ding. you are dead with -1khp... cant heal through that.

Personally I believe the issue is the Champions that get fortification bypass.. yes full bypass, they ignore all fortification...
I can deal with hard hits, I even built my caster and healer to have 1khp and more than 150% fortification for that very reason, but unrealistic fort bypass with 1-shot kills...
what's the point of building defenses when no defence will keep you from the 1-shot kill.
Mobs that ignore fortification completely is just BS., may as well reroll the tank into a ranged pewpewer and join the monchers in pewpew keepaway.
Its a bad sign when the trash Champion instills more fear than the Red Named boss from the same quest.

[Loromir]

My initial opinion was that Champions should be somewhat rare...but also, pretty dangerous. I wouldn't have a problem with seeing the spawn rate dropped even a bit more, but also, increasing their DPS somewhat. I think you should always fear coming around the corner and facing off with a champion.

If they are a rare (maybe 2%-5%) possibility to spawn but extremely dangerous (buffed up very well with even some epic destiny abilities)..people would think twice about just running off like a crazed barbarian into the next foray. People might just slow down for fear of not being prepared for what lurked around the next corner.

Thinking in RL terms...A champion should be the best of the best. There should be very few of them and they should be feared.

[Qhualor]

from about 10 minutes ago. HE Fashion Madness. on lv 28 (hehe, farming for armor)

Both SS from same quest.



Not 10x HP but over 7x.

The Champion Eye Terror had I hit harder, DW, True seeing. Seemingly no defensive buffs at all.

This is exactly kind of thing I'm seeing too. They may have more HP than trash mobs, but they have the same defense. They can still be CC'd in some way and takes a few more hits to kill. It seems going by what I have experienced and others who have posted that the Champions have ~6-7 times the HP.

[Connman]

I have mentioned this idea in other threads (and perhaps this one before). If there was a checkbox to opt-in to having Champions in a quest, instead of the "chance" of trashy lootboxes dropping it could provide an additional "real" chest at the end of the quest (like currently some optionals provide an additional chest). This chest would give the same rewards as a normal quest-end chest including a chance at named gear, etc. Also, the Champion optional could provide a set amount of extra XP like other optionals currently do.

Now you have an incentive to run with Champions in addition to the challenge that so many people say they are craving. But it is an "optional" incentive - people play quests all the time without completing optionals so there should be no sudden pressure that everyone has to run with Champions in order to "keep up with the Joneses".

The best thing about the idea of making Champions an "optional" instead of a normal part of all Hard and Elite quests is that the developers could tweak them at will without affecting the rest of the quests. As time goes on, Champions in Epic Elite could be tweaked to be a lot more difficult.

This would probably be the fastest way to gather the metric on who likes champions or not. Add the check box, put the champions the way they were. Count stuff.

[Impaqt]

Someone from Turbine (Lead dev? who is that nowadays?) needs to step up and make a post as to WHY they added champions to the game.


Most of the Pro Champion crowd have assumed its because after making the game easier and easier with all the system changes they have made over the last couple years, someone at Turbine stepped back and said.

"This game as a whole has gotten far to easy. We need to ramp the overall difficulty back up."

While most of those against seem to think it went something like this.

"We got all these players with 100 past lives claiming the game is too easy. we need to add something to the game specifically to address those players concerns."

OnlyIf its the latter, would a checkbox(However unlikely) would be a reasonable solution.

[phillymiket]

This is exactly kind of thing I'm seeing too. They may have more HP than trash mobs, but they have the same defense. They can still be CC'd in some way and takes a few more hits to kill. It seems going by what I have experienced and others who have posted that the Champions have ~6-7 times the HP.

I was posting it because it was "glitch" high and i hadn't seen such a thing before.

I have found Champs have 3.5-4 times the HP but that one Eye Terror seems to have been an aberration. (Get it? and aber...nvm).

[Qhualor]

I was posting it because it was "glitch" high and i hadn't seen such a thing before.

I have found Champs have 3.5-4 times the HP but that one Eye Terror seems to have been an aberration. (Get it? and aber...nvm).

I was referring to the difference in HP.

Last night joined a group doing EE Druids chain. In Druids Curse, I checked the HP of the Corrupted Druids to the Champions. The regular druids had about 5-6k HP. The Champions had about 15-16k HP. The difference in HP is consistent to the HP difference I'm seeing everywhere else in the game I am able to see monster HP.

[Cordovan]

Someone from Turbine (Lead dev? who is that nowadays?) needs to step up and make a post as to WHY they added champions to the game.


Most of the Pro Champion crowd have assumed its because after making the game easier and easier with all the system changes they have made over the last couple years, someone at Turbine stepped back and said.

"This game as a whole has gotten far to easy. We need to ramp the overall difficulty back up."

While most of those against seem to think it went something like this.

"We got all these players with 100 past lives claiming the game is too easy. we need to add something to the game specifically to address those players concerns."

OnlyIf its the latter, would a checkbox(However unlikely) would be a reasonable solution.

We have tried to be clear from the start that the main impetus for the addition of Monster Champions was to increase game challenge on Hard and Elite difficulties. We've been making some changes in the past year in particular that have decreased game difficulty for many players, and have heard quite a bit of feedback suggesting that the game needed a boost in overall challenge. Our internal game analysis found those perceptions to have merit in many cases. Additionally, Monster Champions were added to bring some variety during questing, and to give us additional tools that we can use for various things.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Completely disagree. Pre-U24 heroic elite was actually harder at level, than Pre-U24 epic hard. It was challenging. Then they introduced the miserable champions. This is not challenging, as in come up with better tactics, approaches, it's just a slug fest, a mana pot sink.

Champions aren't facilitating dynamic group play, it kept me and many others out of EE quests after a few tries. Could I do it? Yes. Did I want to? Heck no. It wasn't the least bit fun. Ditto for heroic elite. It's NOT fun.

Is it less painful since the hot-fix? Yes, but, do I think they're worth having in the game at all? No. Add a nightmare difficulty level. Give those who want the darn things have them, leave the rest of us alone. Champions do not improve the game, they just make it a painful slog.

focusing my comment on the bolded text above...

...so having played all content and having initially slogged my way through much of it (which was painful), I can say that it no longer remains a painful slog (typically) when solving through tactics or differing approaches...(for me, that means approaches other than "swing sword...swing more...dead if healer no here" or "cast spell...cast same spell again, dead if the healer doesn't save me" ...both of which usually consumed pots for the healer and pots for the spell caster slinging the same 5 spells...both of which the sword swinger was typically blissfully unaware of pots being consumed, but **** the healer if (s)he didn't save him/her. And what's more...that slogging approach takes considerably longer than the solving through tactics or differing approaches.

Back to my point...the first iteration of these champions was slowing the game down and allowing ingame conversations for coordinating solutions. I agree that EVERYONE is now very much used to rofSTOMPING and ZERGING each quest (to include the new players trying to keep up while discovering the quest, then continuing the trend once learned), so the slowdown is hugely noticeable. To help with this slap-in-the-face slowdown (my sarcasm here, but for most players I believe this to be construed as a literal slap in the face), the Devs are creating some new reward system to compensate...hopefully its worthwhile. So essentially, I believe this slowdown is good for the new players, as they can now keep up and they are now being conversed with on how to tackle a life threatening issue...which means more learning and teaching and listening and being included into guilds and and and

So, to sum up this post... Slowing down the quest is good. Slogging through quests is lame. Zerging through quests is lame. rofStomping through quests is lame. Worthwhile loot or incentive is Good. Trash loot is lame.

[Connman]

We have tried to be clear from the start that the main impetus for the addition of Monster Champions was to increase game challenge on Hard and Elite difficulties. We've been making some changes in the past year in particular that have decreased game difficulty for many players, and have heard quite a bit of feedback suggesting that the game needed a boost in overall challenge. Our internal game analysis found those perceptions to have merit in many cases. Additionally, Monster Champions were added to bring some variety during questing, and to give us additional tools that we can use for various things.

Thank you! I hope that balance can be achieved to please the largest amount of players. Everything up until right here seems to be a good COMPANY answer

" and to give us additional tools that we can use for various things"

And this seems to be a good DUNGEON MASTER answer. That makes me think they have some cool ideas for these guys in the future, but we don't need to be looking behind that DM screen just yet...

Thanks for ALL the fast reply's that came when they seemed needed.

[phillymiket]

We have tried to be clear from the start that the main impetus for the addition of Monster Champions was to increase game challenge on Hard and Elite difficulties. We've been making some changes in the past year in particular that have decreased game difficulty for many players, and have heard quite a bit of feedback suggesting that the game needed a boost in overall challenge. Our internal game analysis found those perceptions to have merit in many cases. Additionally, Monster Champions were added to bring some variety during questing, and to give us additional tools that we can use for various things.

Hey Cordovan,

There are many divisive point here but some not as much.

Most seem to be in favor of EPIC being difficult

A bigger area of contention seems to be HEROIC.

Can EPIC and HEROIC have different settings?

For example, HEROIC HARD being like now but EPIC HARD being bumped up a bit?

Or is HARD linked for the two?

What are the possibilities? (seeing as you asked for feedback, it might help to know what can and can't be done)

[Qhualor]

We have tried to be clear from the start that the main impetus for the addition of Monster Champions was to increase game challenge on Hard and Elite difficulties. We've been making some changes in the past year in particular that have decreased game difficulty for many players, and have heard quite a bit of feedback suggesting that the game needed a boost in overall challenge. Our internal game analysis found those perceptions to have merit in many cases. Additionally, Monster Champions were added to bring some variety during questing, and to give us additional tools that we can use for various things.

Yeah but nerfing their power down to joke status in less than a week didn't do anything for challenge.

[patang01]

focusing my comment on the bolded text above...

...so having played all content and having initially slogged my way through much of it (which was painful), I can say that it no longer remains a painful slog (typically) when solving through tactics or differing approaches...(for me, that means approaches other than "swing sword...swing more...dead if healer no here" or "cast spell...cast same spell again, dead if the healer doesn't save me" ...both of which usually consumed pots for the healer and pots for the spell caster slinging the same 5 spells...both of which the sword swinger was typically blissfully unaware of pots being consumed, but **** the healer if (s)he didn't save him/her. And what's more...that slogging approach takes considerably longer than the solving through tactics or differing approaches.

Back to my point...the first iteration of these champions was slowing the game down and allowing ingame conversations for coordinating solutions. I agree that EVERYONE is now very much used to rofSTOMPING and ZERGING each quest (to include the new players trying to keep up while discovering the quest, then continuing the trend once learned), so the slowdown is hugely noticeable. To help with this slap-in-the-face slowdown (my sarcasm here, but for most players I believe this to be construed as a literal slap in the face), the Devs are creating some new reward system to compensate...hopefully its worthwhile. So essentially, I believe this slowdown is good for the new players, as they can now keep up and they are now being conversed with on how to tackle a life threatening issue...which means more learning and teaching and listening and being included into guilds and and and

So, to sum up this post... Slowing down the quest is good. Slogging through quests is lame. Zerging through quests is lame. rofStomping through quests is lame. Worthwhile loot or incentive is Good. Trash loot is lame.

All of this could have been solved with what I suggested the very first day we found out about it on Lam. Make it an option. Everyone gets what they want. And of course add a proper incentive/reward for wanting it included.

[Impaqt]

We have tried to be clear from the start that the main impetus for the addition of Monster Champions was to increase game challenge on Hard and Elite difficulties. We've been making some changes in the past year in particular that have decreased game difficulty for many players, and have heard quite a bit of feedback suggesting that the game needed a boost in overall challenge. Our internal game analysis found those perceptions to have merit in many cases. Additionally, Monster Champions were added to bring some variety during questing, and to give us additional tools that we can use for various things.

Awesome. That is exactly the impression I got, but it was clear that many folks just were not going to get it until you guys spelled it out.

I'm sure there will still be a few that will completely ignore this post,but at least its out there now.

[Impaqt]

All of this could have been solved with what I suggested the very first day we found out about it on Lam. Make it an option. Everyone gets what they want. And of course add a proper incentive/reward for wanting it included.

well. not everyone. Turbine would of NOT gotten what they wanted. and its kinda their game.. so....

[slarden]

It pretty sad that have all them past lives and gear and still do not know that disintegrate is a fort save, not reflex. So epic reflex does nothing in stopping 1 from hitting you on disintegrate..

thank you for the correction.

Sad for you maybe, but I sometimes forget things because I have a very full life with a great job, great wife, great family and other hobbies in addition to DDO. Balance makes me happy. In 20 years DDO will probably be gone, the benefits of a balanced life will still be there.

It's not the first mistake I've made and won't be the last. Fortunately I am not a perfectionist so it doesn't bother me

I was previously playing a toon with saves over 90 so I wasn't paying much attention.

[Grosbeak07]

Have been busy, but very sad to read that Champions were nerfed. It was fun while it lasted, the game actually had a little bit of challenge (might have even died once or twice!), but certainly understand that everyone wants to be god wandering around without the fear of failure or dying, ever. The masses have spoken, Turbine has agreed and here we are.

Perhaps we can give out stickers that say "Awesome Job" and "Congratulations" after each quest completion and really make people feel good.