Monster Champion Feedback

[Eth]

Did EE WGU yesterday and the snowman was a champion. Yes, the snowman.

[Albinosaurus]

The point of all the Monster Champions discussion is that at some point everyone in the game, after spent enough hours in the game to gather loot and past lives, need more challenge to stick to the game more and be interested.

People don't realize that the request for more challenge is not for the sake of elitist players but instead for the casual that after some experience in the game need to face some bigger threats and longer quests because he became a better player by playing the game.

If we don't have a ladder we will see the game dying even faster.

For a game like ddo you want to have a ladder like this:
Casual difficulty - meant for the new guy Joe, that just rolled his character and never played any other mmos.
Normal difficulty - meant for the new guy Joe, that have done couple of quests and is now familiar with game controls or totally new players with experience in other mmos
Hard difficulty - again meant for Joe that now has gotten into a guild, has ship buffs and is finally starting to have a working character so he can group with his new friends to do something more interesting than normal. Insert Monster Champion here so this people will start to learn how they work.
Elite difficulty - After X years spent in the game our "new player" Joe now has X past lives, raid loot gear, good understanding how how to build a character and good friends that can help him in the hardest quests of the game. This elite mode has to be super difficult otherwise Joe stops to play the game because there is no point in getting gear and past life anymore

Notice how asking for more challenge is not meant to cater a certain kind of player but for the health of the game

That notion has been dead for a long time, and trying to forcibly bring it back now is not healthy for the game.

Just to give you a corollary, WoW used to be a really fun game (up until around the end of Wrath era). Then they took away hybrid builds by forcing you to go all the way down a skill tree before you can put points into a secondary one. Near the end of Cata, they removed the trees entirely by saying "everyone just looks up builds anyway," which was total bull****, but they dumbed the game down more and more with each expansion. Now the game's entire player base is strictly casuals. If they were to suddenly bring back dungeons and raids with old BC-era difficulty, they would lose more players than they would regain, and they already lost nearly half of their population since peak. I suspect they actually lost a lot more and the numbers don't reflect the number of gold farmers and hacked accounts (which became EXTREMELY common; mine was twice during the time I played), so the number of active players is probably a fair bit lower.

The point is those "glory days" are gone, and they aren't coming back. The tiered progression system this game started with no longer represents how players play (which is evidenced by any amount of time watching LFMs) and is no longer a healthy approach to the game. That said, several people on either side of the argument, including myself, have proposed compromises to satisfy both the uber-elite vets and the non-vets as much as possible. These are the things that would be healthy for the game if the devs would only listen.

[phillymiket]

Did EE WGU yesterday and the snowman was a champion. Yes, the snowman.

[moomooprincess]

I want a counter that tells me how many champions I have eliminated from Eberron. You know, give us some bragging rights.

Which will require a database change for each character.

[phillymiket]

I want a counter that tells me how many champions I have eliminated from Eberron. You know, give us some bragging rights.

Which will require a database change for each character.

Maybe nice Monster Manual rewards as an incentive to kill Champions, as opposed to quest rewards like direct XP?

That could be your counter.

[Monkey-Boy]

Did EE WGU yesterday and the snowman was a champion. Yes, the snowman.

More evidence that the entire concept is ridiculous.

[Thlargir]

Now after the recent changes ist's ok for me and add a element of uncertainty, but it also drives me to skip some quest, because I just don't want to find out where the champs this time will spawn.

every quest with a high possibility of getting champion Ice Flensers which will one shot you - no thanks
Tomb of the Tormented - no thanks
Enter the Kobold - no thanks

And you want a bravery bonus??? Wow!

[Edwardt]

the past two days we (level 12 barb, level 13 monk/fighter) did (all heroic elite)

The spawn of Whisperdoom
Made to Order
The Enemy Within
Dreams of Insanity
Chains of Flame
An Offering of Blood
Maraud the Mines
Raid the Voolkoorim
Purge the Fallen Shrine
The Chamber of Kourush

I (level 12/13 fourth past life, monk/fighter) soloed (all heroic elite)

Eyes of Stone
Framework
Diplomatic Input

The spawn rate of usual champions was at 10% +/- 1

No one shots.

A few situations with unlucky buffed orange named champions, but solvable.

No cluster with more than three common champions.

I must admit, that the number of crowns in Diplomatic Input drove me to just skip fighting and heading straight to the endfight. Usually I like to get the slayer bonus, but at this point it seems to be more a waste of time compared to the fun.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The heroic elite at this point is for the build I play at the moment not too bad.

The next builds will be adapted to the new difficulty and disqualify some earlier thoughts and there is a point I'm afraid of - the diversity of builds will vanish.

The game itself didn't become easier in the last year. The loot became OP in some way.
My epic toons are now still quite survivable. But not because of many eTRs, or TRs.
It's just the gear and the knowledge when to move.

But how many new items were imbedded in the heroic contend since Shadowfell which would be called groundbreaking?
Below level 14 there is nothing at all and nothing on the list is so powerful that you can't replace it with gear form earlier contend.

Some nice ideas came out of this very long thread.

A new difficulty wouldn't be a bad idea.

....
[ ] Elite
[x] Borderline [low--------------------[]----full on]

you don't need good loot, you have to have it anyway - your reward is to call the challenge 'done'

[phillymiket]

from about 10 minutes ago. HE Fashion Madness. on lv 28 (hehe, farming for armor)

Both SS from same quest.



Not 10x HP but over 7x.

The Champion Eye Terror had I hit harder, DW, True seeing. Seemingly no defensive buffs at all.

[axel15810]

I've played quite a bit of EE and EH before and after the champion nerf.

I have to say, I'm disappointed they were nerfed. I loved the original champs. I feel the nerf was too much - the game difficulty now feels the same to me as it did before update 24. Before the nerf I could actually feel the champions in the quest. I had to pay attention to them, deal with them first by either CC'ing, kiting, or burst DPS'ing them.

After the nerf I can REALLY feel the difficulty difference. It feels much easier than Cordovan's description would suggest. Devs are you sure you only reduced the spawn chance on elite by 3%? It feels like way more than that.

And not just that, I can REALLY feel the difference in the damage buff reduction. I don't even notice it now on EH. EH feels exactly the same now as it did before U24. I don't have to respect the champions at all. Again, are you sure you only decreased it by 25%? It feels like more than that.

So bottom line, before the nerf I was loving the champions. They added an interesting gameplay element to DDO and I was having lots of fun. Now the difficulty of the game feels more or less the same as it was pre-update 24.

I'd like to see you undo the nerfs (at least some), along with introducing a real rewards system (with extra XP) so some players don't get upset. Or perhaps keep the nerf in heroics, undo it in epics. Seems like losing elite bravery bonus is heroics is what's irking casual players the most anyway. Very few elite streak in epics and epics are supposed to be harder anyways right? Especially EE.

If you would have rolled out your rewards system at the same time as champions I think the player base would have been much more accepting of the changes. A lot of the uproar stems from increased quest time with no meaningful reward. Nerfs may not have been necessary.

[Impaqt]

from about 10 minutes ago. HE Fashion Madness. on lv 28 (hehe, farming for armor)

Both SS from same quest.



Not 10x HP but over 7x.

The Champion Eye Terror had I hit harder, DW, True seeing. Seemingly no defensive buffs at all.

I havent done that quest yet.

are all/most of the terrors in that 2k HP range?

I ask because I saw extreme examples of 1209 hp base Orthon and a 6700Hp Champion orthon in Heroic Elite Genesis point. but most of the base orthons were in the 200-2300 range.

[Chaimberland]

Greetings!



~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.


Sev~

I realize I'm a little late to the discussion but I don't like the idea of having champion tokens that can be turned into crafting materials. At least if you are talking about cannith crafting, because I simply do not craft and it would be a useless award for non-crafters. Now if you mean any sort of crafting, including shroud & thunderholme then you have my interest.

[Theolin]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

Ran 6 quests with the changes, I am seeing 5% regular champs in a quest & maybe 10% orange champ in a quest, now. (Heroic Elite)
Before I was seeing about 25% for regulars champs & 75% for orange champs

This could just be the randomness of random or ?????? but seems odd that it change that drastically for for the numbers listed.

[phillymiket]

I havent done that quest yet.

are all/most of the terrors in that 2k HP range?

I ask because I saw extreme examples of 1209 hp base Orthon and a 6700Hp Champion orthon in Heroic Elite Genesis point. but most of the base orthons were in the 200-2300 range.

Edit *misspoke*
- one Eye terror Champ with 15017
- a few other Eye terror Champ with 6801 HP
- reg eye terror (non champ) all had 2111 except one who had 1958 HP for some reason.

[HAL]

I have mentioned this idea in other threads (and perhaps this one before). If there was a checkbox to opt-in to having Champions in a quest, instead of the "chance" of trashy lootboxes dropping it could provide an additional "real" chest at the end of the quest (like currently some optionals provide an additional chest). This chest would give the same rewards as a normal quest-end chest including a chance at named gear, etc. Also, the Champion optional could provide a set amount of extra XP like other optionals currently do.

Now you have an incentive to run with Champions in addition to the challenge that so many people say they are craving. But it is an "optional" incentive - people play quests all the time without completing optionals so there should be no sudden pressure that everyone has to run with Champions in order to "keep up with the Joneses".

The best thing about the idea of making Champions an "optional" instead of a normal part of all Hard and Elite quests is that the developers could tweak them at will without affecting the rest of the quests. As time goes on, Champions in Epic Elite could be tweaked to be a lot more difficult.

[Thlargir]

Since the introduction of MCs I have run all L7->L15 quests heroic elite either duo or true solo (Restless Isles (no raid), Sorrowdusk, necro 2 and 3 as my duo partner is 1st life and does not have those packs but I needed to try keep up with first life leveling).

He is running first life WF Barb, I am running a decently equipped multi-TR WF Arty. As my partner is leveling faster than I am my character has been 1 or 2 levels under quest level for much of the time. We play quests only once.

For the first hour or so after we ran into original MCs there was much puckering and choice descriptives chosen. We even suffered a couple deaths (though no wipes). We then adjusted tactics and began steam rolling again, though a little more circumspectly than before the release. I actually thought for a moment that he may want to come back to DDO (he had found other things to do for the past year).

Then came the nerf hammer, and things are (almost) back to where they were pre-MC. Honestly, we don't even look for the crowns any more. This is only one (well two) point(s) of view, and applies only to Heroic Elite.

Oh, and just in case anyone is still reading, when most folks refer to "challenge" they mean risk/reward, not just risk. For those calling for a checkbox, you have one, it is called "normal". It is a shame that we have so few actual "new players" posting here because I wonder if their perspective is not being mis-represented. When I was a new player I could not open elite, and I did not need to as there was enough xp on normal and hard to cap. Plus, it was a way to learn the game.

Just sayin', one players perspective.

[porkchorp]

Cordovan,

Here is a perspective from a group of new players that just started a month before the champions got implemented:

"Champions has not really changed anything for us, they have made it kinda more fun.

I wish that champions would be more of a single 'miniboss' leading the mob (or spellcaster in the back). A mob with 5 crowns above the head just seems to muck up the screen and lessens from the uniqueness of a champion in general...if you get what i mean?"


Also, Here is a link of extended feedback about new player issues in general if you or any other mod/devs find it interesting:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5498707

[HAL]

I want a counter that tells me how many champions I have eliminated from Eberron. You know, give us some bragging rights.

Which will require a database change for each character.

Yes, this should be added to the Achievements idea.

[HAL]

from about 10 minutes ago. HE Fashion Madness. on lv 28 (hehe, farming for armor)

Both SS from same quest.



Not 10x HP but over 7x.

The Champion Eye Terror had I hit harder, DW, True seeing. Seemingly no defensive buffs at all.

This was probably addressed somewhere but I didn't find anything in my google search: Should a mob with 7x more HP still have the same CR? Do all Champions still have the same CR as their "normal" counterparts?

[Albinosaurus]

This was probably addressed somewhere but I didn't find anything in my google search: Should a mob with 7x more HP still have the same CR? Do all Champions still have the same CR as their "normal" counterparts?

Well, if you bump up their CR then most forms of spell-based CCs stop working. This really hurts limited sp casters because they don't have the resources to nuke through that much hp. I think leaving CRs alone is probably for the better. If anything, there's probably too much CR inflation in general (not talking about champions) and that could use review.