Monster Champion Feedback

[Portalcat]

EE gets back a fraction of its difficulty from a year ago, and wham, we nerf the difficulty within a week.

Like, really? Wasn't restoring the previous difficulty prior to several updates of power creep supposed to a major goal of U24?

[psykopeta]

UPDATE 12/16/14: We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Original Post: Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

Thanks!

u know, yesterday i knew the rate changes w/o coming to the forum XDD

so again, soloed mired in kobolds elite at lvl and it is possible again, the champions' part seem to be ok i guess

but what about the rest of the problem? i mean, champions were supposed to add some challenge, then we saw lots of posts in the forum saying they wanted some reward and/or being able to get xp as fast as before

so what i see is we went back to the starting point, well, now it's harder (not much as before) for new players to get pl

not complaining, just stating something i thought it's obvious

btw, why orange most times must be champions? dunno where's the point sorry, soloed inferno too and they were died before they could hit me, so dunno where the point is (not uber player sorry, in fact my gear is reaaaaaally subpar, not gonna spend hours swapping gear, i mean, from 15 to 20 i use the whole same gear for example)

[phillymiket]

EE gets back a fraction of its difficulty from a year ago, and wham, we nerf the difficulty within a week.

Like, really? Wasn't restoring the previous difficulty prior to several updates of power creep supposed to a major goal of U24?

I'm guessing if they change EE it will also change HE - Same with Hard, change EH and it automatically changes HH as well.

;-)

Kind of an impossible nut to crack for them, if that's the case and they are linked, and no solution will please anyone much less everyone.

[SiliconScout]

Yeah, I read those forums too.

???? not sure what you are talking about.

We were chatting about it over voice last night so .... ???

Did someone else post this idea here? If so sorry, I didn't see it but great minds obviously think alike and that would make it a doubly good idea.

[JOTMON]

Another idea could be to raise the percentage of champions based on the players the group.

Determine the player with the most past lives. The number of past lives and that is the percent chance of a champion.
Don't count lives that are not reflected in past life feats so 7 lives of a Sorc is still only 3 past lives.

A triple completionist is in your party, then champions appear (13x3) 39% of the time.

Iconic and Epic past lives can be added to the mix.

The actual numbers/formula is not as important as the idea of scaling the dungeons to match the players.

That may make is so the a group of first lifers running Elite will have a totally different set of mobs as a group of advanced players BUT hopefully the challenge is similar.

This would make more sense.

Uber power toons with many TR's can handle the increased challenge.

39% may be a bit high.. I would give players 3 TR's before hitting them with Champs.

Maybe average it across all the players, so add all player TR's / number of players = %.
Then that could encourage people to bring first lifers to pull their champ ratio down.

[LupusVai]

I'll admit to not playing every quest since the update, but I have played a lot. I'll also admit to not being able to see all monster HP, even though I have MM maxxed out.

I will continue to post the TRUTH and not spread misguided information to the masses or the devs to push any personal agenda. I have not seen any Champion mobs with say 10× the hp than the same monster non Champion mobs. The devs have repeatedly said to report any mobs like that because it is not intended.

Math is obviously hard for you.

200% more means 3 times the HPs. Which means if a mob normally has 400hps it would have 1200hps. I didn't say x10. The most Ive seen is about 300% which would be x4 hps. Although there have been screen shots posted here of mobs like that. If your monster manual is complete then you would have seen hps of quite a lot of the mobs, because I'm sure my monster manuals are not complete and I have been able to see the hp difference on a lot of mobs.

So you are spreading false information and not the TRUTH. We all know your thoughts on champions because you've posted ad nausem on it and when you're deliberately stating false information to suit your agenda that everyone who can see the hps of the mobs knows is false you loose all credibility.

200% + extra hps is not just a few extra. If a person was 200% taller he'd be nearly as tall as a house. If von 3 epic gave out 200% more exp it would be about 200k (assuming its about 67k normally). Get the idea 200%+ is a lot not a few.

[redoubt]

I think that the reduction in spawn rate is a good thing. At the same time, I would like to see the champions being more dangerous. (Not a roulette game, but more dangerous.)

What the system is missing, even still is the feeling that these are actually champions. Make them hard (maybe not as hard as the boss, but a strong mini-boss maybe) and then give a reward for them.

What the system has that it needs to lose is redundancy. Running a bunch of level 6 thru 8 quests on elite, 9 out of 10 have true seeing. I'm okay with buffing the damage on all the bosses, but double and triple buffing the damage might be the wrong path. Make a good set of buffs and then use all of them instead of just a few. I'm reposting my concept below. The spawn rates I originally suggested might be too low, but then again, would be okay with mini-boss levels of power if the very low spawn rate was used. Maybe a little less power if they stay at 9%. Think about Kai-Teng in Litany. He is fairly tough within that quest, but short of forgetting deathblock, he doesn't one shot people. If you pushed the spawn rate down to 1-3%, then maybe you could make champions like that.


1. Catagorize the buffs:
-- offensive - 50% fort bypass, TS, 2x damage, vorpal, etc
-- defensive - +50 to 100% fort, displacement, +50 to one energy resist
-- party - bard song damage boost, haste, mass heal (to include long cast time)
Note 1: Many people in this thread have listed good, reasonable and challenging buffs the mobs could have. There should be no trouble picking good ones without resorting to putting extra damage x3 and extra hp x2 on every mob.
Note 2: Also, don't put melee buffs on casters and don't put caster buffs on melee.
Note 3: Don't jack up traditional vulnerabilities. i.e. I've see too many trolls with high fire and acid resist. They are supposed to be vulnerable to it. I'm fine if a caster drops a Protection from on them. That is something that 1) I can wear through, and 2) seems more reasonable than a troll with innate fire resist.

2. Set the rate by level (no named, not even orange, they are already buffed.):
-- normal: 1% of mobs
-- hard: 2%
-- elite: 3%
Also, do set some mobs to be ineligible for champion status. i.e. the mobs IN the maze in tomb of the tormented.

3. Set the buff rate:
-- normal: one buff
-- hard: two buff (not from same category
-- elite: three buffs (one from each.)

4. Set auto drop reward from ALL champions (make champions worth killing or don't bother putting them in the game.)
-- each champion is worth xx% of base xp. (5-10?)
-- XP capped characters get: commendations, heart seeds, tokens of the 12, astral shards... something worth actually getting.

People running normal won't even see a champion in every quest. Most quest they might see 1 based on the average number of kills. This will provide a learning experience for dealing with champions, but the very low frequency of seeing them should keep frustrating encounters to a minimum.

If you are worried that this would not be enough of a challenge, by doing it smartly, buffs won't be wasted. A hobgoblin archer won't have +50% fire damage and a beholder won't have "extra slash damage". They will get buff appropriate for what they are. Next, by the time you get to elite they will have 3 buffs. It might look like, +50% damage, +100PRR, haste clickie. Now this mob is tough and once he agros, he drops the clickie and the whole pack is hasted.

I think adding challenge in a smart way is a great idea. I think the champion system as a concept is also a good one. Sadly, I think the implementation is flawed. (Bad enough that I'm worried that 2 of the 6 in my guild are going to quit. I'm trying to get them to hold on, but they told me today that they took a pair of 28s into the new evening star quest on heroic and both got one shotted. Neither of them is a fan of the new system at this time.) I'm hoping if we can "tweak" the system and use smarter buffs maybe we can bring it around to be a system that more people will have a positive reaction to.

[RD2play]

Hey there,

Any chance you could tell us the parameters of possibilities of adjustment?

I get the feeling....

Heroic Hard and Epic Hard are linked, same with Heroic Elite and Epic Elite - change one and you change the other.

If that's the case let us know so we can stop asking for impossible things. (or are you worried about Wizards behind Curtains being revealed?)

The feedback seems to indicate making EE harder (much like first day) and making Heroic and particularly HH easier (much like today) is the best 'middle ground'.

Seems simple that you would adjust accordingly.

I'd sure like to have my EEs difficult while leaving the New Folks their Heroics to play with.

Can you even?

Or is this some 'One-Line Wonder' code that has only one way to adjust?

I get the feeling there are 100 pages of people racking their brains for solutions and you guys are looking at two lines of code that say...

Hard Champion /rate set .06
Elite Champion /rate set .1

with zero intention of adding more code.

Are we wasting our time here?

Thought I come in and give my 2cp, read most of the 90+ pages and haven't run since the hotfix. I have to say that with a decent group on HE you don't really notice them, its when you solo it affects your game play most. I think this gives the game back some of what it lost in terms of being tactical about your decisions and have the knowledge/gear/build to cope with the challenge ahead, instead of run in kill next! I do however feel that the relative difficulty of HE should be like that of EH and that EE should be its own league. normal is out grown by many players quite fast, so the next step would be hard, learn the game tune you char and be ready for elite. then you hit epics ... if the relative difficulty between HE and EE is the same there is no more room for growth in the Epic levels, and therefor I propose HN=EC, HH=EN, HE=EH, EE should be coupled in terms of relative difficulty.

I am sad to see the champions get nerved this fast btw, didn't get to run anything besides a couple he and one eh quest. I did however got both ends of the RNG while fresh out of TR in MP my unbuffed ungeared main got 1 champ in every encounter, which was challenging but fine but then got destroyed by 5+champs in the big room(with the ledges), couple of them crowned mages did the trick. So I thought this is not going to happen and went to the harbour grabbed my gear and buffs and such and went back to give those cultists some payback, only to have no more than 5 champs spawn in the entire quest ... snooze fest whish it would have been the other way around but then I would have only run MP once anyway. I have to say I liked the spawn rate on the first run much better it really made the quest harder but not undoable (for me at least) only the problem arrives Imo when there are to many in one area (rehashing I know).

So I was thinking maybe to balance the spawns per encounter not only to difficulty but also to number of party members.

something like this came to mind
HH: 5% chance, cap: 1 +1/3partymember (3 max cap)
HE & EH 10% chance, cap: 2 +1/2partymember (5 max cap)
EE 25% chance, cap: 3 +1/1partymember (9 max cap)

[Nimdeadlee]

Just logged in last night and realised that the challenge I'd been loving over the last few days has gone.

Checkbox, extra difficulty level, I don't care how. Just bring it back!

[RD2play]

Before I forget ! I really like the Champions buffs to be quicker to see, I made a suggestion in the suggestion forums

link
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Creature-Buffs

Showing Icons under the focus orb is the best place Imo since that is what the focus orb is for ... give monster information like CR, HP, name.

Also maybe the crown could be replaced by a glowing effect and the champions could be made physically bigger.

But for me the most important thing (might become a pet peeve) is that the buffs a champion has are easy to identify by a seasoned player. that you have to inspect first to know what Icon gives what buff is ok but after you memorized them you should only have to select the champion and know to stay away or charge fast.

[Aletys]

I would ask that Heroic still have a challenging Elite option with Pre-Nerf Champions on par with what was released the first weekend of the update.

It would be a major disappointment to me if a challenging environment facilitating dynamic group play were only available in Epic Quest.

I have 34 characters; at least half are level 12 or lower first lifers with minimal twink gear. Heroic levels is where I spend my time. Let's at least have an option for exciting play for those who want that. We can call it "Elite"

Completely disagree. Pre-U24 heroic elite was actually harder at level, than Pre-U24 epic hard. It was challenging. Then they introduced the miserable champions. This is not challenging, as in come up with better tactics, approaches, it's just a slug fest, a mana pot sink.

Champions aren't facilitating dynamic group play, it kept me and many others out of EE quests after a few tries. Could I do it? Yes. Did I want to? Heck no. It wasn't the least bit fun. Ditto for heroic elite. It's NOT fun.

Is it less painful since the hot-fix? Yes, but, do I think they're worth having in the game at all? No. Add a nightmare difficulty level. Give those who want the darn things have them, leave the rest of us alone. Champions do not improve the game, they just make it a painful slog.

[Claver]

4. There is no reason that this should not be optional, except that they haven't provided a reason for players to want to do it. Lots of people have suggested lots of ways to incentivize it, but the real reason vets don't want the checkbox is that they are afraid they won't be able to fill up their groups if people have to put in extra work for no extra reward. Only the masochistic challenge-seekers want this feature, and they know the rest of us won't want to participate if there's no tangible reward for it--because it's a waste of time/resources.

You frame the issues nicely - it is quite a conundrum. For better of worse in an MMO, the most compelling choices available to the masses shapes the economy and community. This ultimately impacts the individual. You may have the illusion of individual choice but those options are effectively constrained due to the influence of others. If all named raid rewards were available in the DDO store for the low price of 10 turbine points you would have the option of not making a purchase but many would not show such restraint and as a consequence, the number of players running raids would diminish as would the health of the game. If the new Barbarian enhancements were 10X more powerful you would have the option to play another class but many would choose the most powerful option and as a consequence party dynamics and complexion would change for the worse with so many classes being marginalized by proxy.

You could argue the same compelling choices presented by bravery bonus effectively limit options as well. Just look at the LFMs - more often than not, people are running Elite for BB at a specific level range. You may have the option of running at normal or at levels that would break a streak but odds are fewer people will join your LFM than if it is bb compliant. If you want a group play experience your options are limited by the predominate play of a community tending towards BB LFMs.

History shows that having no BB limited group play choices as well. There was insufficient incentive to run Elite in terms of time and trouble. Although you as an individual could run elite, the majority of LFMs, chose to run some combination of N/H/E and then normal repeatedly to maximize XP per minute. Having mechanics to encourage more soloing or quest repetition is not what is best for the health of the game.

From my perspective, the most vital thing about champions is not the challenge per se; it is their presence both promoted grouping and improved the play style of those who were grouping. I'm speaking now of Champions as they were first released, before the nerf. Before this update I mostly soloed Elite. Those times I grouped, I and others seemed to play as individuals zerging without the need for cooperation. After the update, I was incentivized to group on Elite rather than solo because it was now much more efficient to work with others to overcome champions on Elite. I found that PUGGERS that I would characterize on the Ubber end of the spectrum were suddenly communicating, cooperating and sticking together as a team rather than zerging ahead to smash, smash, smash. This was because it was now more efficient to work together to overcome champions than Zerg by yourself.

My concern is having a tick box option to choose champions or no champions will constrain the behavior of the community in ways that I believe are to its detriment. Human's take the optimum path. I suspect the majority will choose the easier option that does not encourage tactics, or communication or grouping to maximize XP per minute. In my view, that is not the best possible community. An environment optimized for solo play without incentives for cooperative group play is not the best option for the long term health of the game.

The only way around this is to provide a strong incentive (XP, renoun, etc) to encourage selecting the Champion tick box option. Do this and you have now constrained choices again in the same way the XP bravery bonus constrained choices. If everyone is selecting the Champion option because the rewards are just too good to refuse you are compelled to do the same.

My solution and my vote is to NOT make Champions optional on Elite. Use the preNerf version of Champions as they were first released. Do this to promote grouping as a more efficient option than soloing and cooperative team play as a more viable option than a collection of individual zerging separate from each other.

My compromise is to either eliminate Champions on Hard or use the most recent Nerfed version of Champions on Hard. This still preserves the hard BB for those who dislike the randomness or the increased difficulty of Elite.
--

[Aletys]

It always seemed to me that the people who are asking for an extra challenge do so because currently they find the highest difficulty too easy. Thus giving out better loot (or good loot at a higher rate) at a difficulty beyound elite would be counterproductive, as it would immediately reduce the challenge again (better gear = fewer difficulties overcoming the challenge = too easy game experience).

Let those who want a challenge beyond elite have it just for the sake of being challenged!

Agreed, no better gear. If what they want is to be challenged, that should be plenty reward. After all, they claim they're having a blast with CM mobs, that they were bored before. The enjoyment alone should be all they need.

/signed

[Aletys]

This argument sounds logical, but it is undercut by the old epic system, which was for the uber elite and which gave out much more powerful gear. That more powerful epic gear was a cornerstone of that system, and was an effective incentive for endgamers to run endgame.

But, I think everyone has already agreed that today's game is not that game, nor the system currently used. I haven't heard anyone backing the champions say they want better loot; they claim they want the added challenge. We have no end game, we get to 28 & eventually TR or ER. We don't need a constant creep of better gear to keep driving the difficulty up. That's the problem we're having now. Folks have the best gear & multiple lives, maxed out ED's, etc. And they're no longer challenged. Stop the upward creep, & we won't be having these kind of fiascoes.

[Livmo]

You frame the issues nicely - it is quite a conundrum. For better of worse in an MMO, the most compelling choices available to the masses shapes the economy and community. This ultimately impacts the individual. You may have the illusion of individual choice but those options are effectively constrained due to the influence of others. If all named raid rewards were available in the DDO store for the low price of 10 turbine points you would have the option of not making a purchase but many would not show such restraint and as a consequence, the number of players running raids would diminish as would the health of the game. If the new Barbarian enhancements were 10X more powerful you would have the option to play another class but many would choose the most powerful option and as a consequence party dynamics and complexion would change for the worse with so many classes being marginalized by proxy.

You could argue the same compelling choices presented by bravery bonus effectively limit options as well. Just look at the LFMs - more often than not, people are running Elite for BB at a specific level range. You may have the option of running at normal or at levels that would break a streak but odds are fewer people will join your LFM than if it is bb compliant. If you want a group play experience your options are limited by the predominate play of a community tending towards BB LFMs.

History shows that having no BB limited group play choices as well. There was insufficient incentive to run Elite in terms of time and trouble. Although you as an individual could run elite, the majority of LFMs, chose to run some combination of N/H/E and then normal repeatedly to maximize XP per minute. Having mechanics to encourage more soloing or quest repetition is not what is best for the health of the game.

From my perspective, the most vital thing about champions is not the challenge per se; it is their presence both promoted grouping and improved the play style of those who were grouping. I'm speaking now of Champions as they were first released, before the nerf. Before this update I mostly soloed Elite. Those times I grouped, I and others seemed to play as individuals zerging without the need for cooperation. After the update, I was incentivized to group on Elite rather than solo because it was now much more efficient to work with others to overcome champions on Elite. I found that PUGGERS that I would characterize on the Ubber end of the spectrum were suddenly communicating, cooperating and sticking together as a team rather than zerging ahead to smash, smash, smash. This was because it was now more efficient to work together to overcome champions than Zerg by yourself.

My concern is having a tick box option to choose champions or no champions will constrain the behavior of the community in ways that I believe are to its detriment. Human's take the optimum path. I suspect the majority will choose the easier option that does not encourage tactics, or communication or grouping to maximize XP per minute. In my view, that is not the best possible community. An environment optimized for solo play without incentives for cooperative group play is not the best option for the long term health of the game.

The only way around this is to provide a strong incentive (XP, renoun, etc) to encourage selecting the Champion tick box option. Do this and you have now constrained choices again in the same way the XP bravery bonus constrained choices. If everyone is selecting the Champion option because the rewards are just too good to refuse you are compelled to do the same.

My solution and my vote is to NOT make Champions optional on Elite. Use the preNerf version of Champions as they were first released. Do this to promote grouping as a more efficient option than soloing and cooperative team play as a more viable option than a collection of individual zerging separate from each other.

My compromise is to either eliminate Champions on Hard or use the most recent Nerfed version of Champions on Hard. This still preserves the hard BB for those who dislike the randomness or the increased difficulty of Elite.
--

TY for the good read!

[Aletys]

I have done this exact thing, and yes it was challenging, but I think you are really missing a huge point about the difficulty settings. Toons with no or little tweak do not belong in HH and HE, that is why they have the lower setting so that you can acquire better gear and equipment to survive those difficulty levels. Challenges, as the ones in house Cannith provide high quality uber loot that is VERY appropriate for starting Toons. I use it on a regular basis because I have alt-itis, I regularly make new toons and try them out. The first thing I did was load up my main and run headfirst into a group of champions and died. It was awesome the monsters actually had a chance. The second thing I did was roll new toons to experience different ways to defeat them. I took Iconics and all the CC combat feats you could imagine, jumped straight into a pug and stunned and tripped things while the tr's sliced and diced. any other new player could have gone right into that very same lfm, dropped a trip or two, or whatever they do and had a great time, if they only gave it a chance.

Thanks and have a great day

Who's talking about toons who are inexperienced and/or undergeared? That is a bogus argument. Most of the posters here are not newbies. We have well built, well geared toons. We know the quests. We know how to run them, how to run our toons. You may like the champion slog fest, but frankly, many of us do not. The game has been drastically changed with the introduction of champions, and for the worse. Much worse.

[Aletys]

No - melee tactics got a bug where they're working at no-fail levels across all mobs, not just champions.

I'm glad they didn't make champions across the board harder or easier as far as dc based attacks, as this allows them some freedom to do interesting things like champions that are very difficult to trip/stun but normally affected by mind control, or vice versa.

Ah, and when they fix that bug, will the folks saying the champions are wonderful still think that? I wonder.

[Qhualor]

To clarify my earlier comment: If you see a Champion monster with clearly 10x as many hitpoints as an identical monster standing next to it in the same instance and party, that's unintended. This is not intended as a discussion of party or difficulty scaling. That can certainly be a discussion but will only the muddy the feedback in this thread, where some players seem to be reporting Champion Buffs giving x10 hitpoints, which shouldn't be happening. (For the purpose of discussing Champions, please don't report that your solo Casual monsters had a lot less hitpoints than the Elite version with a full party.)

Math is obviously hard for you.

200% more means 3 times the HPs. Which means if a mob normally has 400hps it would have 1200hps. I didn't say x10. The most Ive seen is about 300% which would be x4 hps. Although there have been screen shots posted here of mobs like that. If your monster manual is complete then you would have seen hps of quite a lot of the mobs, because I'm sure my monster manuals are not complete and I have been able to see the hp difference on a lot of mobs.

So you are spreading false information and not the TRUTH. We all know your thoughts on champions because you've posted ad nausem on it and when you're deliberately stating false information to suit your agenda that everyone who can see the hps of the mobs knows is false you loose all credibility.

200% + extra hps is not just a few extra. If a person was 200% taller he'd be nearly as tall as a house. If von 3 epic gave out 200% more exp it would be about 200k (assuming its about 67k normally). Get the idea 200%+ is a lot not a few.

reading dev quotes are not hard.

[Aletys]

I had an idea and chatted with a couple of friends who seemed to think it had merit. I am pretty sure is going to get lost in the chatter here but one none the less that I think should stick.

What if we changed Dungeon Alert a little. What if instead of Harried the alert level spawned more champions?

Yellow Alert = +20% more champions (perhaps the original amount)
Orange = +100% more champions
Red = Every Mob is a champion.

Don't get rid of them entirely, keep them at their current nerfed rate and just have them spawn more and more on alert level. Then the "uber elite" zerg champs will be hit harder with them, but that's OK they like the champions and can handle it. It would seem a far more effective tactic than the current Dungeon Alert system AND it would allow the player to have a direct impact on their spawn rate.

Additionally I think my idea that champion chests should have XP stones and renown only has merit. Maybe add in seasonal event mats as well so you get say a 200 XP stone, 100 Guild renown and a Silver coin in a chest today. To me that would also solve some of the issue with people wanting to have the champions effect XP. Should be easier to implement and you don't have to build a system to track Champion kills separately to provide some sort of XP bonus.


Anyway like I said I expect this to be lost in the chatter but I hope a dev actually does read it, maybe even considers it as an option. I think that vast majority of the player base would be happy with that change.

You have got to be joking .. dungeon alerts spawning even more champions?. But just in case you are actually serious, this is totally and completely ridiculous. I will not bother to respond further.

[phillymiket]

My solution and my vote is to NOT make Champions optional on Elite. Use the preNerf version of Champions as they were first released. Do this to promote grouping as a more efficient option than soloing and cooperative team play as a more viable option than a collection of individual zerging separate from each other.

My compromise is to either eliminate Champions on Hard or use the most recent Nerfed version of Champions on Hard. This still preserves the hard BB for those who dislike the randomness or the increased difficulty of Elite.
--

Good post.

I agree with you that a check-box is not workable.

One of two things will happen based on the XP/Gear incentive offered with Champions.
- If the incentive is too great all LFMS will be "with Champions"
- If the incentive is too small no LFMS will be "with Champions"
The chance of the porridge being just right are close to zero.

Besides, there is no way to even have any incentive added at all without a)reducing current XP and gear or b) Adding even more gear and XP.

the first would cause the players to /equip pitchfork and torch and riot, the second would make the game even worse.

It would be just another quick fix that shut people up but made the game worse at the end of the day.

If HEROIC HARD and EPIC HARD have to be the same setting, with no variation, then make it easy for new players. (imo)

If HEROIC ELITE and EPIC ELITE have to be the same setting, with no variation, then make it difficult for Vets. (imo)

Everyone gets something, nobody gets everything. (though its still a really imperfect solution)

At least then NORMAL>HARD>ELITE would have logical, achievable, and measured increases in difficulty between them.