Monster Champion Feedback

[BD_]

Not really, no. The original implementation of champions didn't make any of my EH runs challenging. I don't think I ever went below 50% health. But champions did make my runs way more interesting and fun. After the adjustment, we're back to not challenging, not particularly interesting, and less fun. Largely because in epic levels there's so much more repetition than in heroic levels, where (for "one-and-done"rs like me) there is no repetition at all.

This problem stems from there being considerably more heroic quests than epic quests - not with champions...

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

Can't remember whom, but I'm tweaking somebody else's solution to incorporate past lives. I noticed that guild members have level's higher than 28, and I confirmed that the numbers include past lives. I'm thinking that the champion can scale according to a pre-set formula based on combined party level using the character's overall level. This would solve the issue for new lifers and vets.

Something like (100+combined party level)/100. eg. a group of 6 (level 1) newbies would have 1.06 rating whereas a group of 6 triple completionists (level 1) would have a rating would have 47.8 rating. This way the champion would scale in spawn rate and/or damage accordingly. Formula can be changed to whatever metric works to have an appropriate challenge level.

[wonkey]

My views are naturally going to be a bit different than your average player, since I play exclusively 'hardcore' permadeath, finding that to be the only way I have fun with this game.

The game has gotten a ton easier over the past little while. The biggest bump has been the enhancement pass. That, coupled with the way loot drops nowadays makes it incredibly hard to make the game challenging in a reasonable way that still lets you play the game. We're talking running quests on elite at base level (e.g. proof is in the poison elite with level 4s - because lower toons couldn't handle scouting, and we avoid metagaming through or around traps), without any twinked gear, no purchased magic items, no rez shrines, no ship buffs, and a host of other rules, and just steamrolling everything with whatever pickup group (from within the guild) of whatever size, happened to be around.

Sure, there's the element of knowing the quests, but a) I think the majority of players play most quests with some knowledge, and b) about the same happened for quests where most, if not all, of the group was unfamiliar.

Champion monsters have been amazing. They provide a decent challenge on elite, and a small, non-balanced party can have a decent challenge on hard. I hope the nerfs haven't changed that too much, and, while I know we're not a huge population, I'm pleading not to nerf this into irrelevance. Hard and elite were designed to be challenging. Let them stay that way.

[Braegan]

Can't remember whom, but I'm tweaking somebody else's solution to incorporate past lives. I noticed that guild members have level's higher than 28, and I confirmed that the numbers include past lives. I'm thinking that the champion can scale according to a pre-set formula based on combined party level using the character's overall level. This would solve the issue for new lifers and vets.

Something like (100+combined party level)/100. eg. a group of 6 (level 1) newbies would have 1.06 rating whereas a group of 6 triple completionists (level 1) would have a rating would have 47.8 rating. This way the champion would scale in spawn rate and/or damage accordingly. Formula can be changed to whatever metric works to have an appropriate challenge level.

Just keep it simple.

The last thing DDO needs now is another system to run checks on and induce more lag.

I can see it now: "Heytons' Rest, only accepting 34 pt builds or less!"

Also, the system you propose is flawed as someone with game knowledge or EDs can be a 1st lifer and rock EE's without batting an eye, while someone else with a bunch of past lives might not even be able to solo a tower in EN Wiz King.

No, the solution is to keep Elite...ELITE!

Tweak EH and HH sure, but leave Elite as a challenge. I'd really rather EH stay ramped up a bit as well, but I guess we really can't have nice things.

[Baylen76]

Random champions being harder than quest bosses is headache-inducingly bad design and completely immersion-breaking.

Ridiculously hp-inflated champions one-shooting soloers is bad design, especially if you want your game to remain playable by >200ms ping folks.

As proper feedback, I've canceled my subscription yesterday. Take that, champions.

[brokenhoof]

After the initial introduction of champions I had a lot of mixed play between heroic elite levels and epic elite levels - and my impression of them both was immensely positive.

The first thing it did was slow things down. Players that ran ahead by themselves were by and by killed off pretty quickly, even the multiple TR'd excellently geared super-build types. And oh how that made me smile. It forced them to pace themselves with at least some of the group. Even that little amount of cooperation felt like a hugely positive thing, especially in DDO.

These days player power is so ramped up that it takes a lot of restraint -not- to blitz through everything, when it's the easiest way of going through most quests. Consequently most people play that way - and do so without thinking much of it. My feeling towards this is that it doesn't encourage group play in the least, other than to hasten the completion of quests.

On the first day of champions, where elite missions were populated with (it appeared to me) a 30ish% of crowned monsters, those quests we had ran maybe 100 times or more felt very different. We had to stop, make sure the group was together - sometimes making use of geometry to keep the number of champions hitting on you at a given moment down. My favorites were the archer-type monsters with damage boost. At one point in one of the drow quests we resorted to the old tactic of having a person in front shield block to take retaliatory fire, guarding the ranged player who would eventually take down the champion. That has -never- happened in a meaningful way in any quest I've played since the level cap was raised from level 16, years back. And it felt great.

The whole fun, in my mind, of having different classes and different trees of skills is to encourage the utilization of them in tandem with other, differing trees, to create and do things a single person/build couldn't. Can you imagine, for example, a television series consisting of a spy team, where there -wasn't- a specialty for each member? Actually, I can. And it would be a terrible show.

Veering slightly back to tangent, my feeling is that DDO has more and more been going in that direction. Everyone can heal, CC, do damage, tank - so why need anyone else?

I am not calling for a return of the ever-toted 'trinity' of MMOs - tank healer dps/crowd control. What I'm saying is that the introduction of champions is encouraging players to work together, if only in a minimal way. And I think the one thing that can make DDO even better is having to work and play together with your party-mates to accomplish big things. Shouldn't completing an epic elite quest at-level be a big thing?

Anyhow, I just logged off after a few hours of play, feeling out the new toned-down champion element. I'm very sad to say it's like they weren't even there. It was back to a zerg-fest through epic elite quests, that, the day before, were actually slower, more enjoyable, cooperative ventures. I didn't know how great DDO could feel until the last update - and now that's it back to what it was, the game is quickly losing its appeal.

My 2 cents.

[bbqzor]

Will check it out.

So I did. Ran: EH High Road chain, EH Tide Turns chain (sans storm the beaches), EH 3BC Epics, EE Temple of Vol (x2), EH VoN 2/3/4. Total 16 EH and 2 EE, all after the changes went in. Not the best test set but it was where the party went.

Spawn rate feels right. Damage value feels right. They are present, and bear consideration when spawning in groups or on EE, but they no longer dominate the scene through constant champion packs 24/7. I feel thats appropriate. It may make you think twice on EE due to how significant some of the buffs can be, or due to randomness may provide an unexpected challenge on EH when you get more than one at a time. But its no longer derailing the game DDO is for a new one centered around champions. While its not perfect, its more acceptable, and this was a move in the right direction. It adds a little spice as you run across it, rather than changing the core game dynamic. I hope future adjustments are made, and are made with similar themes in mind.

None of those quests were particularly good for "orange mob swarms" so will check that another time. I still have concerns that might create "bad stuff" on EE but only so much time.

Also, both EE runs did not yield a mob with "second wind" so cannot comment on that any further yet. I am keeping my eyes open.

Still not sure whats up with the huge HP mobs either. Doesnt seem tied to quest, quest pack, level, epic/heroic, or hard/elite difficulty. Just, some champions have bazillion HP. Its always non-orange mobs if thats any help. Ive always seen it with 3 or less players in group, though it could be that with more players its harder to notice the difference due to relative dps rather than it being related to a repo condition. Shrugs. If I figure out more specifics will say something, but cant repo yet, just saying its still there.

In closing, this was a good first step. I have not yet been able to test everything I want to, but it looks good on a first pass. I still think (and many others have echoed) that "all or nothing" buffs like the total fort bypass need to go, and be replaced with scalar ones. Anything that binary is not healthy for the game. And I think true seeing should be a bit rarer, as it significantly alters the value of some pretty big investments as a player (elf dragon marks, shroud crafting, invisibility/stealth mechanics, etc). And of course, Second Wind, which is basically adrenaline on EE in practice. All of those ignore any work or effort a player can put in, leaving the only option of inspecting every mob first and wholesale avoiding the offending champions (either by sneaking by, opening with cc so it never acts, using instant kills, etc... never actually fighting them at all). Which, really, is just a tedious way to counter-circumvent something which circumvents the player to begin with. The better solution is to make them NOT necessitate such a drastic change in behavior, by not completely ignoring effort put into character development by the player to start. Then, everyone wins... it can be challenging, or reward those who invest more than others, without flat out sending everyone to the stone age.

I think with some further fine tuning (ie making hirelings, scripted npcs like coyle or the planescaller, and pets like the artificer and druid dogs immune to champion extra damage as discussed, figuring out that 10x hp issue, etc) and a look at some of the buffs (second wind, fort bypass, etc) it could be a fun addition. Getting the volume of champs and the damage boost per mob down to a liveable value was the first step. The second is to cleanup the places it applies, and get some of the more binary effects into ones players can work with. Thanks.

[Enderoc]

So I jumped on another server to try out a build. Question, does champion spawn reflect on highest level player in the group?

[Sir_Noob]

I decided to try a BF Pally / Artie I am trying to catch up to my regular group to replace a current toon.

I ran the Phiarlan Carnival solo elite, equipped with only stuff I have gained through adventuring.
First 2 adventures certainly had their tough moments and butt clenching fears as some of them definitely had me on the ropes.

It did add some more fun to the mix. I enjoyed the challenge.
I do not consider myself to be a great player, only an average equipped with permadeath style tactics.

The only thing I found that was a bit bizarre was the number of chests I was getting.
I do not mind gaining the guild points but I found ended up tossing alot of the stuff I was getting since I had not bargained on seeing so many chests.

Perhaps an interesting thing to do instead of granting so many chests how about using that counter device to add a cumulative 1% for every chest that would have been gained going towards rare drops in chests already there.

I was scared when I first read about this but a hearty thumbs up so far on what I have experienced.

[LupusVai]

Seems much better with the adjustment so far. Particularly that there's not so many champs, it was a bit ridiculous running into two or more champs in every group. It now feels more like a champion is a threat i'd better deal with him first rather than...really, sigh, 3 more champions i'm forced to kite round and round in circles slowly chipping away at them. Meaning that they feel like something special when i run into one now that they are less common rather than just dull and annoying when spawning in flocks.

A question to the Devs about champion mob hit points. How many are they actually supposed to have. They seem to have rather a large amount comparatively. 3x as many hps regular mob or more in my experience, not a small percentage of extra hit points as one rather vocal frequent flyer keeps stating.

Some examples I've encountered which are normal rather than exceptional. Plus we know that there are some with 10x hp, which are exceptional.

(all quests on elite)
Durks 520hp slimes. lvl2 quest
Info is the key 640hp human lvl 2 quest
Maze of madness 2k hp mobs when the rest have about 4-5 hundred.
Spies in the house (EE) 32K skeleton regular ones having about 7.5k.

I know it doesn't matter how many hps the mobs have to people with mortal fear weapons but not everyone has them and it just makes for a very tedious beat down and there's a game to play between level 1-27 as well as at level 28 with 36 etrs already under the belt.

I'm wondering if the devs know how many hps the regular mob crows have as it seems to be more in many cases than orange mobs.

[Albinosaurus]

Why are the "elite" players, who are crying about them dialing back champs a little bit, even talking about Hard difficulty? I thought they were elite? Why aren't they playing on Elite?

This just goes to show how their arguments are really just sociopathic and have nothing to do with game health. Just add the optional checkbox. If those "elite" players really are elite, they will check it every time. The rest of us don't want to deal with champs, because they are a waste of time and effort, and give no incentive to want to bother with them.

[Benihim]

Greetings Devs.
Here are my thoughts regarding the champion issue : there is obviously 2 responses by 2 groups.
1. The "elitist" who have "Everything " and will never pay a penny.
2. The Newb/casual player who are a 1000 times more likely to pay for the game by VIP for instances.

Maybe you could include the players by give players some choices and arrange a vote, or poll or such.

Either way someone is gonna be unhappy, imo its better the elitist is unhappy, No matter how much they whine, they wont quit DDO anyway. Afterall its harder to quit if you have tons of pastlives and capped EDs, high end gears,etc.. while its easy for a new player to move on.

Good luck, and try to keep all the VIP subs if you can
Keep up the good work!

[LupusVai]

Why are the "elite" players, who are crying about them dialing back champs a little bit, even talking about Hard difficulty? I thought they were elite? Why aren't they playing on Elite?

one word. "epeen"

They've been saying adnausem that everyone but them should be playing casual and normal.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

champions were kinda interesting as first released. now they change my gaming absolutely 0%. make a choice, and either add difficulty to the game or get rid of champions so at least the noobs will continue spending on their piddly subs, cuz a drop in the bucket is a big deal for ddo these days.

[Keladon]

Ran the following quests tonight with full groups:

The Mask of Deception - EH
Palace of Stone - EH
Fashion Madness - EH
Entire Orchard Chain - EH

Epic Hard seems too easy now. I think it needs to be dialed back up again for Epic Hard setting.

Temple of Vol - EE
FleshMakers - EE

Epic Elite seems about right with the current setting. There were multiple party deaths. The black knight champions hit like a ton of bricks. Was fun and challenging.

Summary: Epic Hard needs to be harder. Epic Elite seems about right.

If you want a challenge you don't care about hard or normal anyway, so just make EE A LOT harder, that's what everyone asked for.

The vets want harder content, but Heroic is run mainly for the past lives and by new players so that's not about a challenge but about speed (and the new players are challenged enough), ergo take them out of Heroic.
The vets complained EE was too easy -> only put them in EE, but harder than the first implementation.

That leaves the "casuals" alone and pleases the vets while also not being frustrating for newbies.

[LupusVai]

According to that logic, Epic Normal should be a lot harder! It's not about making all difficulties equal.. Increase the difficulty of EE, that's all.
If you want a challenge you don't care about hard or normal anyway, so just make EE A LOT harder, that's what everyone asked for.

The vets want harder content, but Heroic is run mainly for the past lives and by new players so that's not about a challenge but about speed (and the new players are challenged enough), ergo take them out of Heroic.
The vets complained EE was too easy -> only put them in EE, but harder than the first implementation.

That leaves the "casuals" alone and pleases the vets while also not being frustrating for newbies.

Logic and reason will not be tolerated around here. Go stand in the corner in shame.

[katz]

i have been unable to play last night and today due to work utterly kicking my arse... but in light of the announced changes i will still be recording and relaying my findings, but i'll be starting fresh so as to not skew my overall average.


anyone know if they fixed the "champs spawn with 1/2 HP" thing yet? guess i'll find out tomorrow... hopefully i can play a bit then

[Neomarica]

Here's the tl;dr of this entire thread:

Justify, defend, or tweak champions however you want, but you are losing players in an already too small player base, and will continue to for as long as it isn't optional. Nothing else anyone can say or do is even relevant against this fact.

They've already been losing players for a long time, at least partly due to casualization of the game. So whether or not the champions cause some players to leave is irrelevant if they also help retain other players in equal measure.

[Keladon]

They've already been losing players for a long time, at least partly due to casualization of the game. So whether or not the champions cause some players to leave is irrelevant if they also help retain other players in equal measure.

Wishful thinking. People are more likely to leave because of the lack of content than because of casualization (no idea where you're seeing casualization though).
Why do you think they already adjusted the numbers, because it was bringing in more subs? more players? I don't think so.
A spike in cancelled subs is a reason to react.

[ForwardWu]

Most powergamer posted here like the new challenges from CM at EH and EE.

I will suggest they make a new toon and try out the CM at HH and HE, and I hope they will experience why CM will make large impact to new players and casual player in Heroic level. Before saying improving your toon or just play normal, I will suggest they try HH and HE with new toons with little tweak.

And for those who looking for more challenges at Epic, I will suggest them to not unlock Epic destiny and see the Joy.

Enjoy.