Monster Champion Feedback

[Claver]

I really want the same...something that works for everyone. Unfortunately, (imo) making it optional (a checkbox) will further destroy the group issues...and its this grouping issue that I see as the more important problem that DDO is facing.

To get the majority of players grouping, there needs to be a reason...harder content is a good reason.
Again, and unfortunately, this will totally scr*w over some players...and that sucks. But imo, this is the type of action that will get DDO healthier in the long run.

/Truth…

This is what had me most excited about champions. Tonight's Nerf to Champions will likely undermine that benefit as Elite champions seem to be so weakened and rare that soloing will again be the default option for many in the community.

[gwonbush]

And it will be nerfed in difficulty to the ground after 2 hours it goes live on lamania

You overestimate lammania change speed. It'll go two weeks without change, causing many outcries on the Lam forums. Then it goes live without anybody actually testing the new, overly nerfed version on Lam.

[Qhualor]

lets meet in the middle. divide the power of Champions from what it was before today with the power of Champions today and maybe it will be just about right. im fine with the rarity of Champions as is now as long as they get a power boost. after that, what else is on the list of ways to challenge us? you know it will be just a matter of weeks until players get used to the way Champions are and we go back to the way it was before. I ran with elite players doing EE High Road chain at level last night before the nerf to Champions and I did a good job holding the rear. we completed the chain in 1/2 hour and it was like "there were Champions in the quest?" please say there is more coming. I was thinking a turnaround is on the rise.

[oldfatman]

Seriously, at this point just turn off the crowns. in a week nobody will even remember you ramped up the difficulty.

What we really need is a nice live open world event that takes place in a large instance like The vale of twilight. You could have it so multiple groups could go in at once. Somehow Horoth pulls it off I guess and breaks through. Make it so the devs could directly take control of the monsters. Because I am quite sure after reading the way some people talk about all their hard work on trying to come up with something different for us, they would probably have great fun flying around on pit demons throwing meteor swarms at giant groups of players. If the instance gets to full they could just start spamming that banishment and have giant groups of people just randomly appear in the market.

[phillymiket]

And it will be nerfed in difficulty to the ground after 2 hours it goes live on lamania

/derail on

Yup.

Finding any End Game seems so impossible given the state of things.

I was thinking this over my Corn Puffs this morning:

What if level 29-30 were a huge departure from the way things are?

The same game, the same combat, no changes (well balancing would be nice) but have it story driven.

Have the progression in XP be very slow, like Glacial Pace slow, and have the rewards be more favor/uncovering new areas etc than new Ubber Gearz.

More "Role-Play" like. Make it really really hard, but in a puzzle, Mario-Fu, teamwork kind of way not a "Best DPS" kind of way. Grouping forced by levers etc.

Have the replay value be more about seeing the next stage of the story or uncovering a new plot then <kill boss> <get gear>

And let people eTR, TR or Iconic TR at 28 so they can just ignore it?

Meh, I guess I'd be the only one who'd like that.

I can dream, can't I?

/derail off

[Oxarhamar]

We may make more substantial differences between Heroic and Epic (or other level ranges) at some point, but the changes today are across all levels. There's some changes we weren't prepared to make today within the first week of Champion Monsters being live, and we'd like to see some more feedback with the new values as well before committing to other changes that are more complicated (as well as more time consuming on our end). We felt today's changes were good "bang for the buck", without disrupting live play.



Yes. The changes went live today around the time of Cordovan's post.

We felt we had enough feedback after one weekend to at least get some changes that we think will work better (and that we set up to do without taking any servers down).


Second Wind probably lasts a few seconds too long, though the damage boost from Second Wind is less than ten seconds already and then it disappears. It is a good idea to get out of the way for a short period after it triggers. And it could potentially have a quicker and perhaps more obvious visual effect when it goes off.


We'll keep listening to feedback from all players.

Lets talk about champion rewards!

from the notes: Monster Champions: Some enemies will now gain randomized buffs on Hard and Elite difficulties. Players can see an indicator above an enemies' head to identify them as having been buffed. Enemies who receive the buffs are called Champions, and have a visible crown above their head to mark them. Mini-boss Champions have a chance to drop a chest when defeated. Monster Champions do not appear in raids.

This translates to Champs with orange or red names having a chance to drop chests & all other Champs having zero reward.

What is the problem with this? Well run EH or EE Devils Assault which is filled with these and is 22 on EH or 23 on EE vs. Running EE Stormhorns , Wheloon, or Nerco which has much less of these the rewards are slim to none.


The rewards are skewed and need adjustment.

A simple XP per champion killed/Renown per champion killed while running within level of the quests would be a start. As well as be a possible fix for the disparity in XP between XP for EN vs. EE (outside of Braver Bonus)

[Dorian]

Ran the following quests tonight with full groups:

The Mask of Deception - EH
Palace of Stone - EH
Fashion Madness - EH
Entire Orchard Chain - EH

Epic Hard seems too easy now. I think it needs to be dialed back up again for Epic Hard setting.

Temple of Vol - EE
FleshMakers - EE

Epic Elite seems about right with the current setting. There were multiple party deaths. The black knight champions hit like a ton of bricks. Was fun and challenging.

Summary: Epic Hard needs to be harder. Epic Elite seems about right.

[FestusHood]

yes you can. you build for defense just like you would for anything else in the game. we know that Champions can hit hard, so if you don't have a very good defense, than let someone else take the agro, range them, sneak past them or something to avoid getting their agro. ive seen tank builds list their damage from combat after getting hit from a Champion. they do hit hard sometimes so be prepared.

Yes i see. This is the" I don't have to outrun the monster, i just have to outrun you" tactic. On a serious note, do you realistically think that there is now going to be a tank in every party? to be honest, if there has to be a must have party member i would just be/bring a spellsinger. Just trap everything in a discoball and not worry at all how hard they hit.

[Monkey-Boy]

Yes i see. This is the" I don't have to outrun the monster, i just have to outrun you" tactic. On a serious note, do you realistically think that there is now going to be a tank in every party? to be honest, if there has to be a must have party member i would just be/bring a spellsinger. Just trap everything in a discoball and not worry at all how hard they hit.

There doesn't need to be a tank, there just needs to be a pug. Nobody said the person taking the hit for you needs to live.

[DarthCaedus]

We may make more substantial differences between Heroic and Epic (or other level ranges) at some point, but the changes today are across all levels. There's some changes we weren't prepared to make today within the first week of Champion Monsters being live, and we'd like to see some more feedback with the new values as well before committing to other changes that are more complicated (as well as more time consuming on our end). We felt today's changes were good "bang for the buck", without disrupting live play.

I really like the approach of making some quick changes now and acknowledging that some additional calibration may be needed over time to make things easier or more difficult.

Sometimes in combat the screen is scrolling so fast I can't always see what did the big damage to me - especially when in a party. Does anyone know if there is a way to save the output to a file so I can bug report any one-shots that scroll off my screen? I won't be able to play until Thursday so I can't comment on today's changes yet. Maybe one-shotting isn't even possible now - I don't know.

Thank you!

[DarthCaedus]

Ran the following quests tonight with full groups:

The Mask of Deception - EH
Palace of Stone - EH
Fashion Madness - EH
Entire Orchard Chain - EH

Epic Hard seems too easy now. I think it needs to be dialed back up again for Epic Hard setting.

Temple of Vol - EE
FleshMakers - EE

Epic Elite seems about right with the current setting. There were multiple party deaths. The black knight champions hit like a ton of bricks. Was fun and challenging.

Summary: Epic Hard needs to be harder. Epic Elite seems about right.

Just out of curiosity, what did you see as the biggest single damage #s on EE after the change was made?

[Seikojin]

Absolutely not. EEs are now super fun. People want easier they can do lower levels.

Wait, what? So you are saying that if you want the game easier, and if it can't be easier run the quest under level?! That is bad design.

I am really happy that champ management is backend.

I saw a couple of trash mobs in champ mode, but they were killed just as easily as normal mobs. So far, they lost that lovin' feelin'.

[TitusOvid]

How about bringing in dungeon alert mechanic into this?! the higher the dungeon alert, the mighter the champions and maybe up their appearnace. So the peeps that are able to zerg EE have some challenge, too.

[FestusHood]

After playing with new champions that are scaled down with damage output on ee, i must say that i am considerably disappointed.
The hit to their damage output was so big that now they present no danger at all.
Now they are just hp meatbags that serve no purpose.
If you want to name them champions then give them something at least for epic elite.
You can keep the toned down damage on lower settings and heroic, but for epic elite they present nothing but hp meatbags now, might as well call them, needless hp meatbag mechanic monsters instead of champions.

Im really really disappointed into the change for epic elite, wasnt the point to give us a challenge on that difficulty?
Then you tease us with a magnificent mechanic and then you practically eliminate it.
What for?
I dont see a purpose in champion mechanic if they cant present any form of danger to the experienced player on what you call hardest difficulty in this game

I'm fairly sure they didn't expect to have to make adjustments this fast. This may fall under the category of damage control. If nothing else, it seems to show that they can fairly easily and quickly adjust the parameters.

As others have said, let it play out.

[Robai]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

These are good changes. Please don't lower 66%.

On your next adjustment, increase Champion Damage boost back to what it was yesterday and instead lower Champion HP by 30%.

No!
Hp was never a problem, I don't get it why so many players complain about it.
Moreover, debuffs in this game is almost always a useless tactics since trash mobs die in several hits anyway.

[phillymiket]

HE Acid Wit, Delerium in party
- Not more than one Champ per encounter except for a couple of cases.
Again almost all, I Hit Harder, TS, DW.
Trog casters didn't zap anyone unreasonably.
The Doggy in the Meat Locker was Champion with a bunch of damage buffs I hit hard, second wind included. Stood in front of him when he went below 50% on PRR 24 wiz, didn't really hit super Hard (though I did move away)
Champion Floor Tile (where we will not be undersold) with defensive buffs ahhh annoying.

Re-ran Harbinger HE solo
- Much the same, good spread of Champs 50-120 damage per hit avg, 3.5-4x HP for Champs.
except - second go of Fear Factory had tons of Champions, 3-4 in a room in two places. Multiples in rooms often. So I guess random is random.

Shadow of a Doubt/Esacpe plan/Disciples of Shar HE in party.
- No more than one Champ per encounter except where we were zerging and grouping them up
Also a many simultaniously active in the spot where you have to Protect the Prisoners in escape plan - but there was 2O mobs active at any one time - and the Champs tend to build up in re-spawn parts because they take longer to kill (and half had party hats)
Almost all Shar Worshipers were Champs again about 3.5x HP

[BD_]

small sample size so far, but ive only run EH tonight in a variety of quests.

1. spawn rate was seriously decreased for Champions. I actually went several groups of mobs before actually encountering one. haven't seen more than 3 in a group spawn at once. ran quests like EDA that have a lot of mob spawns. this makes Champions more special.

2. hardly seeing any extra chests now that chance of Champions to spawn has been seriously dialed back. don't really care myself about being rewarded for killing a Champion that's a little tougher than a trash mob, but some do.

3. heres the rant... Champions on EH are now a joke. their damage is too far scaled back. I didn't find them any tougher than a trash mob. I stood toe to toe killing them with my weak defense and casting Cocoon once or twice as a Rogue with agro with no fear of dying. players who found Champions hard and didn't want to drop down to normal to avoid them should have no problems with them on hard. to be perfectly honest, unless Champions are borked somewhere else, ill be quite surprised if anyone still complains about them. they went from an actual threat to an actual joke. my my the pendulum swung too far.

ill try to run some EEs before the night is out.

I (still) think the champion damage buff is bugged and in some (many) cases actually decreases champion damage instead of increases it. According to the dev posts today - the only things changed were a universal decrease in spawn rates and damage so I have no reason to believe that if I was correct and it was bugged before - that it isn't still bugged.

As an example in one quest I ran today on Heroic Elite A Stay at The Inn (base level 18 - lvl 20 on elite). One archer champion was hitting me (104 PRR) for 4-8 with one 23 hit (a crit). It was the last mob alive and I stood there and let it hit me for a while (about 10 actual hits). Sure it was an archer and they tend to do less damage than melee mobs, but even with my PRR 4-8 per hit is pretty low for that level quest - (non champion) archer mobs in harbor quests hit harder than that. In a previous post I gave an example of my experience with champion mobs in Irestone Islet hitting for considerably less than their non champion counterparts - so I've encountered this more than once.

I think in many cases champion damage will still be increased - but probably increased to a fairly reasonable amount.

[BD_]

It is because of epic destiny XP and cap not really being cap. To enter the old epics you had to be at cap.

So I would love to run end game content like this.

Minimum level 30 raids, must be at cap (30) to enter
No XP awarded, no excuse to be "off destiny"

On Normal: The loot that drops is either the EN loot, or it drops the ingredients for TIER 1 crafting. When you have acquired enough of this gear you are ready for hard. The gear should be designed to be desired for the raids. This should be challenging but not soul crushing.

On hard: Second tier loot, highly desirable for elite level.

On Elite: Third tier loot, best in slot can be crafted. If you are not prepared, difficulty should be soul crushing. If you are prepared and geared difficulty should be very challenging.

I do not know which loot system is best or what, but the idea is you need to do normal to be ready for hard and hard to be ready for elite.

I would like this.

Thanks and have a great day.

The problem is that a level 20 in a capped ED is usually more powerful than a level 28 in a fresh ED...

[BD_]

Here's an outside-the-box idea to address the new player/vet divide regarding champions:

The champion system only actives when a second life (or later) character is inside the quest. Only first lifers? No champions. Legend build enters the instance? Champions now start to spawn.

I kinda like this idea...

[BD_]

After playing with new champions that are scaled down with damage output on ee, i must say that i am considerably disappointed.
The hit to their damage output was so big that now they present no danger at all.
Now they are just hp meatbags that serve no purpose.
If you want to name them champions then give them something at least for epic elite.
You can keep the toned down damage on lower settings and heroic, but for epic elite they present nothing but hp meatbags now, might as well call them, needless hp meatbag mechanic monsters instead of champions.

Im really really disappointed into the change for epic elite, wasnt the point to give us a challenge on that difficulty?
Then you tease us with a magnificent mechanic and then you practically eliminate it.
What for?
I dont see a purpose in champion mechanic if they cant present any form of danger to the experienced player on what you call hardest difficulty in this game

As I've already stated in another post, I think the damage is bugged and sometimes giving a decrease to damage instead of an increase to damage so... No one else has commented on it that I've seen or reproduced it, although I've had at least 5 champion mobs that did considerably less damage than their non champion counterparts - it's a lot harder to notice if some champions are doing slightly less than non champions.

If you increase difficulty on EE only - the problem will be the same as it was not too long ago - where quite a few players get to the point of being able to absolutely steamroll EH, but still get absolutely destroyed in EH = no difficulty is "appropriate" or fun for them.