Monster Champion Feedback

[Zzevel]

If people absolutely require check boxes, that is cool with me, as long as you include a champions only box.

Interesting...

Why not take it a step farther and change the difficulty settings all together. Make all quests base difficulty EXACTLY the same then differentiate them with Champions.

Casual ~0% Champions
Normal ~8% Champions
Hard ~35% Champions
Elite ~ 75% Champions

You could even adjust the % (+/- 1/3/5 per player in the group), to replace that AWESOME Dungeon Scaling everybody loves...

then change the XP to a Base + Bonus/per Champion Kill + Bonus/per player in group + Other Bonus (Ship/Pot/Voice Etc..)

[Aletys]

This actually a good point about red alerts. Melees are at a greater disadvantage than casters. Casters can still mass kill or land individual spells just as easily without alert.

Well, that's only true to a point. If you zone in to an area, & get swamped with a a mob causing a red alert (I've had that happen), the casters in the party are likely dead before they can get anything off. They generally don't have the mrr/prr or ac to withstand the beating, nor the spell spamming from the mob casters. Can't remember off-hand where that was atm, but I've had it happen before U24, and now with multiple champions every time you turn around, it's worse.

[Hazelnut]

I can understand having a scaling mob/ champion system when players are running over level.. like level 27's running von3 on EH.. a level 20 quest

I don't understand adding champions to hard/elite at level runs.
The quests were already designed to be a challenge at those levels for level appropriate toons.
If the quest was not a challenge for at level players then the quest design itself needed tweaking.

I didn't understand the purpose of the champions at first either. Then I talked with some people who have been playing DDO since Gianthold was end-game and re-read a bunch of the information that Turbine provides on the DDO website. I'm starting to understand the champions and, for elite, I'm starting to think they got it right. No well-equipped toon is level appropriate anymore; we are all over-powered for our level because of the years of power creep.

With enhancements and augment slots and named items and new more powerful gear, and magic items in every chest, the players are loads more powerful than they used to be. To keep the challenge, the monsters need to get more challenging too. That is why we have champions.

DDO is meant to be played in groups. A group of 6 players that know what they are doing can take on an Elite quest full of champions most of time at level; but they have a risk of failure. Turbine is trying to bring back the challenge that was there at the beginning.

Also, the reverse of what you said has been true for a long time. Characters are going in under-level and soloing elite. People(1) regularly go into a quest that is at-level for his/her characters when on normal but set the difficulty to Elite (that makes it two-levels higher). The champions make it a LOT harder to do a quest like that now.

Those two extra levels would give you more hit-points and turn the insta-kills into near-kills.

I still think that there is too much of a gap between Normal and Hard but I am starting to believe that Turbine got Elite right. Elite should only be a cake walk for the very best players. Elite at-level should be a challenge for the rest of us when we are in a full party and pretty much impossible to solo at-level or below. That is what the word elite means.

(1) These people I talk about include myself and many of the people I regularly group with as well as several pick-up-groups I've joined. A small sample, but I am nowhere near the best player in the game.

[Livmo]

I didn't understand the purpose of the champions at first either. Then I talked with some people who have been playing DDO since Gianthold was end-game and re-read a bunch of the information that Turbine provides on the DDO website. I'm starting to understand the champions and, for elite, I'm starting to think they got it right. No well-equipped toon is level appropriate anymore; we are all over-powered for our level because of the years of power creep.

With enhancements and augment slots and named items and new more powerful gear, and magic items in every chest, the players are loads more powerful than they used to be. To keep the challenge, the monsters need to get more challenging too. That is why we have champions.

DDO is meant to be played in groups. A group of 6 players that know what they are doing can take on an Elite quest full of champions most of time at level; but they have a risk of failure. Turbine is trying to bring back the challenge that was there at the beginning.

Also, the reverse of what you said has been true for a long time. Characters are going in under-level and soloing elite. People(1) regularly go into a quest that is at-level for his/her characters when on normal but set the difficulty to Elite (that makes it two-levels higher). The champions make it a LOT harder to do a quest like that now.

Those two extra levels would give you more hit-points and turn the insta-kills into near-kills.

I still think that there is too much of a gap between Normal and Hard but I am starting to believe that Turbine got Elite right. Elite should only be a cake walk for the very best players. Elite at-level should be a challenge for the rest of us when we are in a full party and pretty much impossible to solo at-level or below. That is what the word elite means.

(1) These people I talk about include myself and many of the people I regularly group with as well as several pick-up-groups I've joined. A small sample, but I am nowhere near the best player in the game.

In my opinion this shot from Haunted Halls last night could be a classic DnD module art or image. The power of grouping to rise and overcome.

[gypsythief]

What I really want to know is...how do you not know it's coming when you see the floaty glowy crown thing?

Well as an example, I have just been smak-smack-smack-deaded again. In this instance, there was a mixed group of hobgoblins and kobolds. As I have some Rogue, I have quite a good spot and could see the hidden ones in the group. None were champions.

I started off by taking out the caster with some ranged and magic, whilst the melees ran over. By the time they arrived, the caster was dead and I switched to a weapon to finish off the melees. A kobold champion then appeared right beside me. He had been so well stealthed that he was impossible (for me at least) to see, untill it un-stealthed to attack me. And you guessed it (say it with me folks...)

Smack, smack, smack, dead.

Now what you say it perfectly true. If I can see the the floaty crown I can prepare. When I can see the floaty crown champions are not a problem. It is the sheer number of ones that you can't see until it is too late because they around a corner, or down a shaft, or stealthed, that are a problem. And those you can not prepare for, because after it has killed you when you back the RNG has rolled differently and the mob that was a Champion no longer is. Now it's the one around the next corner, that you don't know about until it's too late.

And preparing for any un-known one that night just appear is not feasible for everyone: I'm running with a Paladin at the moment, and they have trip and it works great. As a cross-classed Swashbuckling Bard/Rogue, I have no CC that will work on one's that appear too quickly. If I can see them coming, I can fascinate them just fine. If not, smack, smack, smack, dead.

May be we should all just play Paladins now?

[redoubt]

Change fortification bypass to 35% fort bypass. This is equal to our precision bypass. You could also add a second buff for 15% equipment bypass of fort and let these two stack if they happen to pull both buffs. Bypassing all 215% of my fort is overpowered.

Tone down the number of mobs with true seeing. The champion system is heavily weighted against melee and the extreme rate of TS is even more heavily weighted against robe/light armor characters who rely heavily on concealment chances. It also seems to affect some of the low level CC since the mobs just see through it.

I've been trying to pull just a mob or two at a time. It seems like the mobs are doing a lot more talking to each other these days and always bringing all their friends. Is this what other people are experiencing?

[Kamode_Corebasher]

I've posted before in this thread, but feel it necessary to post again.

I too am worried you will polish (nerf) this new champions system into non-threatening / continuously zergable and bypassable content...

Tweak the system Devs, but do it in such a way as to make the content give us reasons to group and reasons to use tactics and reasons to grow our static groups or guilds...etc. Meaning, whatever reward system you're currently concocting is hugely important to offset the slowdown that so many are angst about.

For those thinking this new system kills solo play...it does not. Note that all my characters are flavor type builds...none optimized like they could be. So prior to the champions, I could solo zerg 90% of all HE content on 8 of my characters, solo 90% of all EE content on 5 of my characters, and solo zerg 90% of all EE on 2. After champions, I can solo but not zerg unless in a good group.

My vote is to make 'Grouping" once again the norm for DDO.

Dear Devs:

I'm not pleased to be doing this, because I hate the attitude that I'm important enough for this kind of message to mean anything... So this is not an ultimatum, it's simply where I draw the line for myself. You must do what you think is best.

However, I do think you've done goofed with the champions, and have now put yourselves in a corner with a no win situation... We have seen for the last few days a rage quit threat from a lot of people if the new system doesn't go away. I now must add mine to the list:


If the new system is nerfed to toothlessness, such as happened so many times (i.e. Traps on Elite) such that we return to the mindless faceroll of elite content, I will no longer be able to continue to play or pay for this game. Simply, and I know many disagree with me, Elite content should not be easy. A new player with a first life toon and starter gear should be able to easily beat normal, find hard a challenge, and Elite extremely difficult. Death and quest failure should always be an possibility / probability, as this and not XP, XP/min, loot or favor is what made the game fun. In Waterworks, Pt3 there is an ogre optional, Krung the Brutal, who is responsible for so many red smears, even with a full party, and to this day I get nervous when starting that fight... even though he hasn't been able to do me harm in a great many years (and no it's not just gear/past lives, he's no longer the danger he once was), the sense of victory is no longer there. What sense of victory is there when you beat Harry, The Reaver, or any of the other bosses if there is no chance they are going to win. at least GOP, there is a chance he's gonna get you first.

I fully understand, and agree that the system needs tweaks... But long history has shown those tweaks that should be made with a scalpel are usually made with a machete. I will say the lower levels probably need the most adjustment while the higher levels need the least. Please don't water the system down to pointlessness.

Basically, I have tried to adapt to the new "Easy" mode we have, making excuses like "it's getting more people to play" and such, However, the intro of the Champion system reminded me of what we once had, and a glimmer of hope that there was going to be some challenge left in to strive for. I cannot go back to sleepwalking through some of the Supposedly hardest content, and will not go back now.

Thank you.

[GoldyGopher]

But... But... But... my Bravery Bonus.... The game is too grindy to run "normal"... Even Running hard... you vets just want to keep the best loot for yourselves, and keep us out of the club.... /s

Actually if you read what I have posted in the past you know that is very much an untrue statement.

I think Bravery Bonus is stupid and needs to go the way of the dodo bird. The game is grindy because 15 or so quests give out 250% too much XP now and 150 quests give out only 25% of what they should and another 100 quests only give out only 50% of the XP they should.
Rather Turbine should normalize XP in the quests based upon level, challenge, length of time it takes people to complete, adjust bonus XP and all optional XP to meet time and challenge requirements.

I also have stated that all named items should have a normal/hard/elite and "epic" version with an upgrade path. IE you pull an Epic Normal "Wall of Wood", you go to a trader in Eveningstar and Combine the Epic Normal "Wall of Wood" with 25 Epic Tokens to get a Epic Hard "Wall of Wood", you combine Epic Hard "Wall of Wood" with 50 Epic Tokens to get Epic Elite "Wall of Wood", combine the Epic Elite "Wall of Wood" with 10 Commendations of Heroism to get an Epic Epic version of the "Wall of Wood".
Yes I know the system would need to be better designed/planned, but its only a comment on how I would make it work.

[cdemeritt]

Actually if you read what I have posted in the past you know that is very much an untrue statement.

Lol... Sorry, Too much time on another board. Note the /s at the end... It means /Sarcasm. I was actually 100% agreeing with you.

[Livmo]

Well as an example, I have just been smak-smack-smack-deaded again. In this instance, there was a mixed group of hobgoblins and kobolds. As I have some Rogue, I have quite a good spot and could see the hidden ones in the group. None were champions.

I started off by taking out the caster with some ranged and magic, whilst the melees ran over. By the time they arrived, the caster was dead and I switched to a weapon to finish off the melees. A kobold champion then appeared right beside me. He had been so well stealthed that he was impossible (for me at least) to see, untill it un-stealthed to attack me. And you guessed it (say it with me folks...)

Smack, smack, smack, dead.

Now what you say it perfectly true. If I can see the the floaty crown I can prepare. When I can see the floaty crown champions are not a problem. It is the sheer number of ones that you can't see until it is too late because they around a corner, or down a shaft, or stealthed, that are a problem. And those you can not prepare for, because after it has killed you when you back the RNG has rolled differently and the mob that was a Champion no longer is. Now it's the one around the next corner, that you don't know about until it's too late.

And preparing for any un-known one that night just appear is not feasible for everyone: I'm running with a Paladin at the moment, and they have trip and it works great. As a cross-classed Swashbuckling Bard/Rogue, I have no CC that will work on one's that appear too quickly. If I can see them coming, I can fascinate them just fine. If not, smack, smack, smack, dead.

May be we should all just play Paladins now?

Heroic Elite seems to be more adverse than epics. I'm running a first life Morninglord in epics and I tear dungeons up. Champions slow it down a bit and make it more of a challenge. All the 1 shots that I died from where in lowbie HE quests. Most my toons are first lifers. Only one is a paladin. The others are doing just fine (have 40 total and all classes and races thrown in). My first liferes haven't been one-shotted in epics, yet. To me you have to keep moving to not get hit. I still see the mobs cast DW allot in epics so I can't one shot them back as easliy as I used to, and had to branch out with my spells to compensate.

Pre-U24 I was (and still am) loaded for bear. I still don't know all the quest well so I prep for the unknown and have been for a long. The unknown is what makes the game fun!

The Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared". Follow that and the unkown is not that bad.

[veracityafterthought]

Some players love and some hate the champions.Could it be possible when entering a quest if there was a Champion check box for if you wanted them in the quest or not?

[Impaqt]

Some players love and some hate the champions.Could it be possible when entering a quest if there was a Champion check box for if you wanted them in the quest or not?

Sorry. thats not possible.

[GoldyGopher]

Lol... Sorry, Too much time on another board. Note the /s at the end... It means /Sarcasm. I was actually 100% agreeing with you.

Sorry, I just to riled up way too easily when it comes to the fact I have been advocating for 8 years for Turbine to normalize XP and make it more standard. It would help alleviate so many issues (not make go away but make them affect smaller portions of the population.)

[doucefeuille]

Ice Flenser Polar Ray damage has been out of whack for quite some time. I was one shotted by those guys BEFORE champions came out.
I believe something got set up incorrectly when the devs started giving mobs Maximize and Spell Power. I bug reported it a few times, but nothing ever came of it so I assumed it was WAI.
Ice Flenser damage should be looked at again.

Very surprise to ear that, before CM came out no one-shot with them, big damage but never one-shot. Death possible if we do not take care but no one-shoot.
But I can concede your argument. Just can you explain me too for the rusty monster? and a fire elemental in a lvl 5 epic dealing 400+?

I didn't understand the purpose of the champions at first either. Then I talked with some people who have been playing DDO since Gianthold was end-game and re-read a bunch of the information that Turbine provides on the DDO website. I'm starting to understand the champions and, for elite, I'm starting to think they got it right. No well-equipped toon is level appropriate anymore; we are all over-powered for our level because of the years of power creep.

With enhancements and augment slots and named items and new more powerful gear, and magic items in every chest, the players are loads more powerful than they used to be. To keep the challenge, the monsters need to get more challenging too. That is why we have champions.

DDO is meant to be played in groups. A group of 6 players that know what they are doing can take on an Elite quest full of champions most of time at level; but they have a risk of failure. Turbine is trying to bring back the challenge that was there at the beginning.

Also, the reverse of what you said has been true for a long time. Characters are going in under-level and soloing elite. People(1) regularly go into a quest that is at-level for his/her characters when on normal but set the difficulty to Elite (that makes it two-levels higher). The champions make it a LOT harder to do a quest like that now.

Those two extra levels would give you more hit-points and turn the insta-kills into near-kills.

I still think that there is too much of a gap between Normal and Hard but I am starting to believe that Turbine got Elite right. Elite should only be a cake walk for the very best players. Elite at-level should be a challenge for the rest of us when we are in a full party and pretty much impossible to solo at-level or below. That is what the word elite means.

(1) These people I talk about include myself and many of the people I regularly group with as well as several pick-up-groups I've joined. A small sample, but I am nowhere near the best player in the game.

I was playing at the time you are talking about, and when the market was a hudge red tent before it was destroy by fiends, we was able to duo elite quest. Not every quest, some was more challenging and nobody never say it was cake-walk... But it already was possible with concentration and the fail was not because a random one-shoot, double resist or monster too powerfull for the escort, or with too much hp too long to kill and failled because there is a timer... A fail has always an explaination and can be avoid by learning more our classes, increasing a little the stuff, the game-play. Here it's not the same, the explanation would never be satisfactory if it's just 'bad luck, your crown mob has roll the better buff combination" reset and try a game with a little bit of chance they would not be there next time.

The CM are not balanced between them, and also for 28pts 1st-life toons without hirelings nor boat buff. Such toons exist and cannot play as they can since/for 6-7 years ago. Before U24 it was a little bit easy for such toons to go on elite but not as much as you are thinking about. It was too easy for over-powered toons.

I understand that completionist need more challenge and vets enjoy surprise as they know by hart the quest they run. But they are not alone and the 28pt-1st-life toons have right to have challenge too and no obligations to play only on "normal" mode suddenly. Actually CM are just a nightmare to avoid for them.

Or if you want to let CM like they are and for everybody, just give new players the same advantages you have now and advantage you gain with a too simple game that became suddenly very harder. So even new player/toons can enjoy the same game.

[Keladon]

I dont care for any loot-clubs - thats the twisted mind of the wanna-be-ubers.
I want the same xp and the same difficulty i was running before U24, being able to solo without random deaths. I bought a greater tome of xp for a good reason. Make this **** optional - let them die if they want to 20 times in a quest - and let me do my alloptionals-runs with the same diff it was before.
How i play a game i pay money for is not the concern of some selfish people, who think their way is the only way acceptable.

Bolded the important part, because that's what these champions are causing right now, random deaths.
Yes, you can run into a trap and die, but that's hardly random, you learn from things like that.

But seeing 10 champions who are just meatbags and then 1 who can pretty much kill you in 2 seconds is only frustrating.
They can be speedbumps and not make the quest any harder or they can make you fail a quest, now I personally don't like that kind of random. It's frustrating, not challenging.

I know there's people out there who like dying and think dying = challenge. Well, give them their champions, but again, give me the option to turn that feature off.

[BillyBlaze]

Great job, love love love the champions. You could even make them harder.

Congratulations on coming up with a creative and easy way to deal with power creep.

Great job couldn't be happier!

[Kaytis]

Sorry. thats not possible.

That's the second time you said it isn't possible. Are the devs telling you privately that they are incapable of such a difficult programming miracle? Or are you just hoping they are incapable?

[TMcKinley]

Some players love and some hate the champions.Could it be possible when entering a quest if there was a Champion check box for if you wanted them in the quest or not?

That is a great idea. It affords players that want a challenge to have one. It also permits players looking to not spend 30 minutes beating down a trash mob the ability to play as they desire.

[Livmo]

That's the second time you said it isn't possible. Are the devs telling you privately that they are incapable of such a difficult programming miracle? Or are you just hoping they are incapable?

Is it RL humans preventing or not wanting to do it, or does the code/structure prevent it from being coded?

[Kaytis]

Sorry. thats not possible.

Is it RL humans preventing or not wanting to do it, or does the code/structure prevent it from being coded?

I would assume they are capable of adding a checkbox. But impact thinks otherwise.