Monster Champion Feedback

[Thrudh]

As one of the vocal proponents of champions, let me clarify my input since scaling has come up a couple times in the last couple pages. Here's my feedback:

Solo Play
Heroic Hard: No idea
Heroic Elite: No idea
Epic Hard: Champion frequency/strength seems perfect to me
Epic Elite: No idea

Group Play
Heroic Hard: No idea
Heroic Elite: No idea
Epic Hard: No idea
Epic Elite: No idea

I agree. Haven't tried the other playstyles yet. So far, all my data is on EH solo, and champions are perfect.

[Zeleron]

The only argument I am seeing in this thread is that we all quit the game because we couldn't solo a quest on elite our very first time(Do note: I got bored of reading all of them and feel sorry for the dev's who have too).
In other words I do like the monster champions although some of them do need work.
I was a level 4 with a hireling in a base level 3 quest on elite. Most of the champion mobs who had absurd HP started off with half of it cut already. This little guy had full hp. His four buffs where, Healing debuff, bludgeon damage, true seeing, and increased damage. 1.5k hp at level 4 was fun but tedious to beat down by myself with that hire.

[phillymiket]

Okay:

Ship buffs are stronger now, and plentiful. With no more renown decay they can more easily get invited to join, because why not? No more having to establish yourself before a larger guild will risk the decay to extend an invite.

Named gear got stronger in heroic levels. There was an entire pass to make most heroic items stronger when augments went live. (Whirlwind, etc...) Heck, they even added a bodyfeeder weapon to the end reward for collaborator.

Named gear got WAY easier to acquire now that most of it is guaranteed to appear in every 3rd list. (Carnifex, etc...)

As for a thaumaturgy staff, I was assuming just buy one in the auction house and tailor your savant tree to whichever is most suited to the staff. But if you say they have to pull one, then fine: The very first T-Staff you pull that has an element on it (as opposed to devotion, nullification, etc...) choose that as your primary savant. Done.

You said level 2, now the playing field shifts... << >>

Ok so now the new person found a guild.

Gratz new person!

Named gear! LOL

Those staffs, that gear? That's what you get after you've been playing a while.

And anyway, check out the AH for lv 2 Thurm staffs. Not really there.

You are confusing your twink TRing with a new persons first life.

Listen, try for a split second to put yourself in the shoes of a person joining our game...

You did the Grotto and now are poking around Korthos.

Normal was good for your first trek around the village because you were just learning the controls, but now it's a joke.

You try Hard and there is some crazy high HP rat (of all things) that ganks you!

You try again, now there is some Orange Name Fish Person with a crown over their head that zaps you with a magic missle for 2x your health.

You try another one, but just can't protect the crystal thingy with these crown people!

You go back to Normal and steam roll the whole island. So easy it bored you.

So you look for a group.

There are two groups to join, they are both Elite.

You join. The people in party are waaay more powerful then you and stomp the monsters while you got killed by a bat with a crown.

No one comes back for your stone.

You leave DDO and never return.

[Aletys]

Turbine might be willing to refund your money. This was a huge change to the game mechanics and since you are early into the renewal they could perhaps see your point.

And, if enough people start requesting refunds, it might force them them to rethink this whole fiasco.

[schelsullivan]

I love the champion addition. Just hTR a few toons and so far leveling back to 10 by running heroic epic bravery bonus is a challenge again. I cut my teeth on the original Everquest and Dungeon Crawl (Stone Soup) and those were definitely very difficult games to succeed at. Ive alway thought the RPG and MMORPG since those day were getting easier and easier. For those who complain its too hard now, DDO has a difficulty setting for you as well, Casual and Normal, in which no monster champions spawn.

[Peaboken]

I do not like Monster Champions as they are currently working.

Played my Artificer (solo) over the weekend in Tanglefoot, and got creamed in Captives (four champions and the end boss on heroic elite). Also, I got one-shot by an arcane skeleton champion in heroic elite catacombs.

Increased difficulty should generate increased reward. In the tabletop game, an increased challenge rating generates more experience points. Why not with monster champions?

Grouping is not a solution for everyone. I am an introvert and I do not group. I used to group when I started off, but the players fixed that for me. I play to have fun, not to be badgered, pressured, or insulted (Yes, I am a newb with poor equipment).

While playing at a lower difficulty will decrease the number of champions, it will also decrease the experience point reward. This will increase the amount of grinding which will decrease the enjoyment of the game. I have never met someone who said, "Grinding? Oh, yes please!"

I like playing DDO either solo or with my spouse. I enjoy playing at my own speed with my limited skills. I am a casual player how throws $20 at DDO 2-3 times a year.

I hope that DDO finds a way to give you what you want from the game without taking away what I enjoy.

[diasho2]

Hehe, me too.

I ran at least a half a dozen characters up to level 10 or 12 and would re-roll and try again before I stepped a foot into "end game".

My first GS took longer then it would take me to collect every single new non-raid named item since the expansion.

Here's the difference... It was a shared experience.

We were all in the trenches swinging our +2 Great Axe of Pure Good.

95% of the LFMs weren't Elite speed runs.

So it was actually fun.

We have this idealized memory of DDO from back in the day.

We think if a new person has to run Normal now it will be just like it was for us when we ran Normal.

It won't. They will be alone. The game has moved on.

"Normal" offers ZERO challenge anymore, even for a new person.

The game can't go from ZERO challenge to TOO MUCH with no in-between for our new players.

(and yes, I know, we all could roll a new toon on a new server and be fine with our Meta-knoiwledge. But not the guy without knowledge of how to build a effective character)

If I started playing back then and all the LFMs were Elite with these OP Super-TRs blasting through them and I couldn't handle it and was forced to do Normal as it stands now, I would not be here, I'd have quit.

Refusing to see the obvious flaws in this system in some bid to return the game to it's former glory is silly.

Desire to return the game doesn't actually solve anything, nor does Champions. We'd have to fix a whole lot more to even begin to return to balanced parties on Normal.

As it stands, for Heroic questing, we are trading a whole lot of game options for the next generation of DDO players for a slight bit of extra amusement for vets while they blow through another TR.

Bad Trade.

Epic Champions and Heroic Elite Champions are enough, leave the new folks exploring Korthos the Hard setting at least.

I mean, do any of you who want Champions to stay as is even play on Heroic Hard?

This is by far the best response I have seen. I remember working to get the little tokens so i could advance levels, grinding endlessly for gs running endless shrouds because that was the top end content. I remember how powerful I got my first 20, completed my first epic quest without dieing in it, made my first piece of epic gear, etc. All these things like you said though are not and have not been part of the game for years. That was part of the game back when the game was built to be very close to D&D. For whatever reason turbine has decided to move further away from being a MMO built around D&D 3.5 to a generic MMO built around a D&D theme. While this is Turbine's decision and their choice to make it did change the dynamic that created the play that you mentioned.

As you said though those days are gone now. There have been may patches updates, and expansions since then some good some bad some a wash, but all have changed the game dynamic. They have changed the way the game is played what players expect how players interact. Each updated does that to some small degree.

The addition of champs Personally I think is a net positive as it does encourage group play and D&D at its core is a group game. However, there are times that group play is not possible so making elite play not possible where the current direction of game play for the last several updates and the desire of the bulk of the player base it to play elite for max xp is to play elite seems foolish. Another problem is many find their enjoyment in ddo through playing perma death which means roll a new toon play only with what you find or can buy at vendors, no buffs no ah. These players being stuck on doing normal quests for fear of one shot kills in low lvl quests by masses of champs seriously removes the playability of this play style.

The idea of an opt out for champs is a poor idea as well as it would simply create a new path for more bugs that we don't need. Either have them or don't.

I personally think there should not be champs until after lvl 5/6 quests. This could be done with a simple if then statement if quest base lvl ,>4 then call champ else call champ void

Another current problem with the champs is the numbers. Regardless of the lvl the lvl 20 quest with a 81k hp giant or the lvl 2 quest with a 650 hp zombie having several of these at a time to deal with when they are doing damage equal to half to 3/4 of the hp of the average well geared fighter at that lvl and and bypassing fort, dodge, blur etc is a bit silly, and that is not taking into account the stacks of dots, 10k one shots etc. I suspect some of that will be addressed eventually in a hot fix so I won't say much more about that part. Someone earlier talked about the issues with double spawns caused by lag and similar issues that may be causing the number of champs to be much higher than intended. A solution to this would to be to put a static number of champs in quests, or group of mobs based on the number of mobs and difficulty. IE if there are 4 or more mobs in a single group there would be a chance for a champ, any group smaller than 4 would have no chance of spawning a champ, a group of 8 could have a max of 2 etc. This would not ensure 2 in a group of 8 but would allow up to a max of 2 in a single group of 8-11 mobs. This number could be changed in hard/elite ie hard groups of champ per group of 6 elite 1 per group of 4.


Putting a hard cap on the number of champs that can spawn in a given quest and in a given area would still add flavor difficulty to quests while making them still possible to do.

The silly number of hp and one shot issue still would need to be addressed but hopefully the devs are already on that one, not that I would hold my breath, I think the ladders are being fixed right

[Thrudh]

I said from the beginning that Paladins didn't need to be changed, but losing +1(W) after 1 update really shouldn't affect Paladins to the point that they are back to the bottom of the melee pile again like some are claiming. I seriously have a hard time believing Paladins got nerfed hard with that change though.

Ah, you are TOTALLY living in my world now... You finally are starting to see how much the majority of the posters exaggerate and outright lie.

Very hard for the developers to get any useful feedback from these boards.

[Aletys]

Things are already at a boil for some people. Please consider making the entire champion system optional.

Yes, this. Folks are quitting right & left. It's not fun anymore.

[DragonMageT]

On a more serious note, my comments @Cordovan

I like the new champions, it added some elements of surprise back into the game.

A couple of things that happen this weekend that hasn't happen in a long time for me.

I died many times
I pulled mobs back to the group instead of just rushing in
I put up an LFM for an EE run. I haven't put up an LFM in a year or so.
I used trip for the first time and used it a lot and laughed my ^s@ off.

Champions have that feel of casters of old. Watch out for them and get them first. Love it!

Some minor tweaks are in order but don't nerf the overall / original concept behind Champions.

Heroic levels, I don't care leave, remove, or tone them down a bit doesn't really matter to me.
I honestly can't believe people are arguing over Korthos quests, it's less than 1% of the game.

Nice job Devs!

[killerblue]

The only error was not to add a simple checkbox.

You want more challenge/loot? Tick checkbox.

You want to run as you did before U24? Do not tick the checkbox.

Done.

If you do this all the whiners about champion gone.

Great idea. Hard with/without champions. Elite with/without champions. Should make everyone, ubers and newbies alike, happy.

[Thrudh]

+1w does not make or break the game, but it does revert Pallys to much the same as they were pre-U23

No it doesn't. This is a complete giant exaggeration... You are 100% mistaken.

[TPICKRELL]

Like several others, I've only experiencred EH/EE solo and short man. They seem fine, although some monsters are a lot tougher than others when they become champions. Shadar Kai champions aoe attack when there are multiple champions together are a real PITA, I was seeing first ticks in the 400+ range on EH. A good consequence to champions being everywhere is that knockdowns and helpless states are now a real threat rather than a momentary pause in the action. If you are knocked down while a Champion beats on you, its dicey at best.

The overall spawn rate is way above 10% but as the Dev's have stated more than once, the target for non-orange named trash is something less than 10%. But the orange name champion target is substantially higher. I'm not sure what the target is, but the actual rate I'm seeing is several times that.

The main reason I'm posting is that I noticed an oddity that might help the Dev's figure out what is going on. Yesterday I was running a solo EH Lost in the Swamp. I got a much higher than expected champion rate on the trash wolves that appear a little ways into the quest. There are 15 or so wolves and about 10 of them were crowned (the RNG is very streaky no matter what we've been told). The normal wolves had around 2K HP give or take a bit. All but one of the crowned wolves had 4-4.5K HP, but the last one had 9500 HP. He was not orange named, and he didn't have any extra HP buffs on his bar, but he had 4X base HP not 2X base hp. I was too busy to note down his buffs but I didn't see anything unusual when I glanced at them.

I know nothing about how this is coded, but from the outside, it appeared that the one wolf had the extra HP buff applied once and then applied a second time to the total. this could be a complete red herring, but I'm posting it on the off chance that it might help.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Yes, this. Folks are quitting right & left. It's not fun anymore.

Yup the sky is falling....dooommm!

[Aletys]

It is, do normal. Hard has less spawn, therefore less champs. Adding a control flag takes away even more of the dnd adventure of the system and makes it more like a mud or single player game where you can config cheat your way past intended and designed challenge.



The spawn rate will seem high if a lag timeout duplicates the check roll that succeeds, making multiple mobs right next to eachother (or same spawn cluster) champs. THis is the same problem with 100% of all rolls in ddo, and 100% of a problem in all MMO's period. It is either have duplicate rolls, or have the game crash every 5 minutes. Even wow suffers from this, I guarantee it.



I think they do. The vocal minority in the forums who hate it are outmatched by both the vocal minority that love it and the non-vocal majority who love it. For every 1 guildie who has a complaint, there are 4 who love it for the challenge it adds. On top of this, people who complain about the difficulty loved the idea as well. They like the fact it adds challenge without blanket wards, adding 0's to hp, and requires tactical play at times to overcome without massive pain.

This Champion system spews awesome all over the place for DDO. Sure they can have bugs and be too strong. That can be fixed, as it has been said. The rewards from them will be overlooked as well, as it has been said. I strongly suggest we as a community work harder and better to overcome challenge, not complain it out of the game, making something more blanket happen again.

Maybe in your guild, not in mine. Not in most of the folks I talk to in pugs (& I pug a lot). Not most of my friends. Some like the idea, but frankly the implementation stinks. And certainly not in the forums. The vocal few who love it are vastly outnumbered by both those who hate it outright, and by those who think the execution is completely botched.

I personally do not like the idea at all, but could live with it if it wasn't a completely botched execution. Why do paying customers have to be Turbine's alpha testers? They got feedback on Lamannia that they ignored (not the first time that's happened), and now they think we can be conned into thinking it's a "good thing"?

Or do we need to start the virutal protest marches, & get enough players to cancel subscriptions to get them to roll this back till it's really ready for prime time? Right now this is about as good an idea as changing the heroic TR mechanism would have been.

[TitusOvid]

HH EE helmed horrors dropping chests. this shouldn't happen. sloppy programming, guys.

[Aletys]

... I don't think my 10% is the same as Turbine's 10%. ...

LOL, yeah, they need to check their formulas & their math, & run short quests, as well as quests like Demon Queen in the bat area. Those bats spawn champions at an amazing rate, even on EH. And, more importantly, run it several times, not just once or twice or thrice. There seems to be huge variability between runs, which is probably why some folks think it's fine as is (they've been lucky so far), and others are ready to quit.

I've run some (even short ones) where the rate was 10% or less, and others where it was much, much higher. Sometimes it took several tries before we got an instance where the rate wasn't completely ridiculous. For me at least, they seem to be generally in the 15% - 25% range. And yes, I'm actually recording it and checking against the final kill count in the XP log. This is not a guess.

[Psiandron]

You said level 2, now the playing field shifts... << >>

Ok so now the new person found a guild.

Gratz new person!

Named gear! LOL

Those staffs, that gear? That's what you get after you've been playing a while.

And anyway, check out the AH for lv 2 Thurm staffs. Not really there.

You are confusing your twink TRing with a new persons first life.

Listen, try for a split second to put yourself in the shoes of a person joining our game...

You did the Grotto and now are poking around Korthos.

Normal was good for your first trek around the village because you were just learning the controls, but now it's a joke.

You try Hard and there is some crazy high HP rat (of all things) that ganks you!

You try again, now there is some Orange Name Fish Person with a crown over their head that zaps you with a magic missle for 2x your health.

You try another one, but just can't protect the crystal thingy with these crown people!

You go back to Normal and steam roll the whole island. So easy it bored you.

So you look for a group.

There are two groups to join, they are both Elite.

You join. The people in party are waaay more powerful then you and stomp the monsters while you got killed by a bat with a crown.

No one comes back for your stone.

You leave DDO and never return.

I thought that this ^ was well said.

Give people just learning the game some space to do so.

Also, while I agree that the game has become easier at all levels, especially when taking ship buffs into account, I honestly feel that the big leap in PC power comes in the 11-14 range.

[Livmo]

On a more serious note, my comments @Cordovan

I like the new champions, it added some elements of surprise back into the game.

A couple of things that happen this weekend that hasn't happen in a long time for me.

I died many times
I pulled mobs back to the group instead of just rushing in
I put up an LFM for an EE run. I haven't put up an LFM in a year or so.
I used trip for the first time and used it a lot and laughed my ^s@ off.

Champions have that feel of casters of old. Watch out for them and get them first. Love it!

Some minor tweaks are in order but don't nerf the overall / original concept behind Champions.

Heroic levels, I don't care leave, remove, or tone them down a bit doesn't really matter to me.
I honestly can't believe people are arguing over Korthos quests, it's less than 1% of the game.

Nice job Devs!

I got converted over the weekend. I really like the changes now, or really the challenge, after I got to play more. I think the best solution after mulling it a few days is to make Champions optional. The best of both worlds.

Leave Champions as is for those that like the challenge and add a check box on the quest panel to toggle Champions on or off when you start the quest. Everybody wins.

I play mostly EE and EH. The times I was 1 shotted happened in HE. On EH party scaling can get out of control with champs. EE is finally as it should be.

[Aletys]

Today's game with champions is much easier than the game was when I was new. And it was harder when Blackheart was new than when I was new, since I started playing when cannith crafting and the spell pass went live. (Update 9.)

PRR/MRR makes the game easier, the to-hit formula is much more forgiving, the enhancement pass gives way more power (and to way lower levels) than the old enhancement system, there are more -- and more powerful -- melee feats to take (melee power at level 1?!), plus the aforementioned cannith crafting and spell pass, etc...

Turn Undead is an AoE CC effect that works on undead.

And turn undead didn't work at all against the champions at level 3. It gave some damage, but did not do enough to waste it on them, since at level 3 I've only got a few turns (4 or 5), and some of those quests have a lot of undead.