Monster Champion Feedback

[Psiandron]

Yeah, this is probably throwing a very small hotdog down a massive hallway, but here goes.

Firstly I have no issue with the concept of champions. It's really all about the implementation.

• There have been, in my admittedly limited experience with them thus far, there have simply been too many champions.
• I think that unrestricted randomization of the champion effect is a big mistake and creates a potential spread in difficulty that is unreasonable.
• Most importantly,

I am unsure that they deserve to be in heroics at all, but if so champions should not exist until level 10-12 at the earliest. Else they provide for undue punishment of new, inexperienced and under-equipped players while providing only a nominal challenge for veterans at a point where most are really looking to breeze through on the TR train. This also amounts to undercutting one of the big reasons to subscribe for new players, the ability to bypass normal and even hard difficulties.

That's what I think.

I like you Stewart.
You're not like the other people here,
in the trailer park.
;D

[FestusHood]

I have not played heroic elite since U24 went live, so I can't comment on that. (Though I'm skeptical they would present much of an issue for my heroic leveling.) I do play EH, and have been since it went live, and my experience so far is that monster champions are balanced quite well for EH. If anything, they could be tuned upwards, to be more difficult.

The reasons I dislike epic elite aren't similar to the issues with monster champions. My experience on EH is that monster champions are slightly more difficult than regular EH mobs. The last thing I would say about epic elite mobs in relation to epic hard mobs is that they're "slightly more difficult."

I have also run some epic hard quests in both a solo and a duo. Prior to this change, I would have found these quests to be extremely easy. To be honest, they always have been, and i think you would agree with me. To be honest, i was able to solo epic hard gianthold with a dex based human ranger back before the enhancement pass. Heck, it was my first toon ever in the game, and i had never done a single tr at that point.

I agree, there is a rather enormous jump in difficulty between epic hard and epic elite. It's not easy to have a discussion with some of the people here when they won't accept that pre champ epic elite was difficult enough to challenge players outside of pure newbs. Frankly, i think there may be a similar jump in difficulty between heroic hard and elite, it's just that over time you and i have outgrown that to the point where we can no longer tell the difference. I certainly remember noticing the difference when i was new. I would post or join lfm's for hard and as soon as somebody would inevitably spout "hey, let's run elite" I would have a small anxiety attack.

Since i've grown to the point where i can now play (pre-champ) epic elite, albeit with some difficulty, i can make some comparisons.

My estimate from my initial experience with this is that a champion epic hard mob is at about 80% of the power of a normal epic elite mob in the same quest. In Offering of blood and Wizard King, the epic hard champions were at about the same power level as the ones i found in heroic elite High Road. That's by the numbers, damage and hit points. You say the epic hard monsters could use a little bump. Ok, do that, and basically what you will be facing is a monster that is transposed from epic elite.

I've come to realize for myself why it is that this change is making me so sad. This is going to sound like word play, and to some degree it is, but it's actually the truth. The game has now become too easy for me. What? Let me explain. Epic elite has now most likely become simply too hard for me, but epic hard is still too easy. So while i think it's great that a lot of people who had no place left to go now have a difficulty that is suited to them, I have lost mine. I can't speak for everybody, but i do wonder just how many people find themselves in my same predicament.

People might say just get better. Well, the fact is that after three years of regular play, i have definitely hit the point of diminishing returns in my progression as a player. I strongly suspect that the entire amount of growth still available to me may simply not be enough.

Also, because i like little games like this.

You suggest that if there was a checkbox for no traps that everybody would check it. Let's take it one step further.

What if there was a checkbox that said no monsters?

[phillymiket]

Hold for Reinforcements

Yeah, that one someone else predicted would now be practically unsolvable.

"Protect The Guy" quests are rough because if you go down in level, to say Norm or Casual, the protected person become increasingly weaker and the quest gets actually harder.

So on Casual or Normal, Coyle dies even faster.

That one doesn't bother me as much as "Cannith Manufactory" being a potential SNAFU.

Korthos Island having a quest that you may not able to proceed through without half a dozen tries?

That's a game-killer.

No one on Earth would keep playing after such a first experience.

because since U23 Coyle can not even be killed

You are corrct. I forgot. TY for the correction ;-)

Hey Cordovan -

It's been a weekend, what's the feeling over there in DDO land?

Any feedback from our feedback?

Are we just spitting down a well?

I am very glad to see that CC might be in vogue again.

Only in Heroic quests.

DDO has made Epic Mobs simply ignore the game rules and break CC in a fraction of the advertised duration so it doesn't work there; Epic mobs cheat.

[HatsuharuZ]

I dislike the idea of a "No Champions" checkbox. It's a lot like saying "Here, we made the game slightly more difficult, but it doesn't need to be if you just click this box right here."

Meh. I like having a smooth, no-death run as much as the next guy, but easy runs should be the result of good teamwork and preparation, not because the game is easy.

Edit: I don't believe Turbine's current game designers think like DMs... but that's just my opinion based on what I've seen of most quests after (but not including) House Cannith enclave appeared in the game. I.E. They don't seem to want to play tricks on us.

[Cruxader]

hey now, you start talking about a barb dealing 10k crits and some will ask for video proof because they cant believe that a barb does damage like that :P

oh and to stay on topic, Champions rule!

Agree champions are a very nice addition.
Master's blitz is way OP now, and Holy Sword should be reverted back to how it was in U23.

[Albinosaurus]

Hey Cordovan -

It's been a weekend, what's the feeling over there in DDO land?

Any feedback from our feedback?

Are we just spitting down a well?

[Cruxader]

I am very glad to see that CC might be in vogue again. Its been years since that has happened. My concern with it is that building good CC means giving up a lot of damage. Back when you could auto crit on held mobs and wack them with maiming rocksplitters, you could CC them and do some dps. But in todays game where trash mobs have 10s of thousands of HP, the DPS on a CC character is lacking.

I'm not saying that every enchanter should be able to solo EE. I know that's never gonna happen. But maybe we could get the charm spells un-nerfed so we can at least use them in epic content. At the current 1/8 to 1/16 save interval, charm type spells are a waste of spell points.



While you are correct, what you are suggesting is not fun. I've wanted to be able to start iconic classes at level 1 since they were launched because I hate running quests over level just to get favor. Its boring and tedious. I'd rather start at level one and have to earn all the xp up to 15 and get the favor as I go.

What you are offering as an alternative is roughly the same.



While some believe that EE was too easy before the champions, some of use felt EE was quite the challenge. Last update was the FIRST time I had ever been able to do ANY stormhorns on EE. I got the first two done. I was not able to complete Breaking the Ranks (and I fear what it looks like now with champions.)

I've also looked at the damage rating on my un-upgraded nightmare and my T2 TF B.Sword. Both went down about 13 points. My good crits are around 1500. Maybe that's because I'm not a BF THF with T3 greatwhatever or ESOS (I don't know what the current best THF weapon is.) Anyway, I can tell you that on a vanguard I'm doing good damage, but nothing spectacular. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but my paladin can feel the loss of that 1W.



We've been through this before. You are talking about multiple builds that happen to be based on Paladin. Not a single build that does all of that at once.



/grovel

Oh thank you, oh benevolent Blackheart sir. Thank you that you did not whip us further. Thank you that we can now play in your version of the game. We are very sorry that we did not see your way as perfect from the start. Thank you, oh lordship that you did not also take away our crit boost. We are sorry that we cannot play as well as you and should simply shut the up and go away and stop ruining your game. Thank you, your worship for allowing us to grovel in your glory, we promise to never try to have fun again, unless it is in accordance with your will.

/grovel more.

lol well said!

[Tillann]

Base chance for a mob to be a champion should be lowered.
5% hard (1 in 20), 10% elite (1 in 10)

Party adjustment:
Percentage champion chance should be raised for every reincarnation.
(+0.5% chance a mob is champion for each reincarnation (TR or Epic) currently present in instance.)
So, for example, a (6 TR, 4 ER character) would raise the chance by 5%. (10 reinc x 0.5%)
A second (2 TR, 2 ER character) would raise the chance by another 2%, etc.

For the sake of balance, (and keeping as many players happy as practical), champions should prefer to attack more powerful, reincarnated characters.
For each reincarnation, you should generate +5% threat vs. champions.
The TR/ER players who want a challenge will get what they ask for, and less powerful characters will be squashed less.

Champions are a good concept. The workings need to be adjusted.

Champions should have a more random assortment of buffs/debuffs.

As currently implemented, champions will be a turn-off for new (non-TR/ER) players.
It will not encourage partying... non-TR players will be excluded from parties.

Excluded players get fed up and leave for a game they can play.
We need new players to keep DDO funded/going.

Unless changed, this will divide game into two groups:
- Already multiple TRs. (will run Elite content.)
- Not-yet TR. (will never be able to TR, realistically speaking, as they will lose the benefit of Bravery Bonus).

I played a game that divided players into groups like this before... I stopped playing that game.
Even though I was fairly powerful myself, I didn't enjoy playing in that kind of environment.

Also, there needs to be some reward associated with the risk/effort involved.

Champions should:
- Give guild renown
- Count as optional quest exp (CR x20 experience maybe)
- Have random chance chest drop (with +1 Loot Table)

[Nascoe]

Yeah, that one someone else predicted would now be practically unsolvable.

"Protect The Guy" quests are rough because if you go down in level, to say Norm or Casual, the protected person become increasingly weaker and the quest gets actually harder.

So on Casual or Normal, Coyle dies even faster.

That one doesn't bother me as much as "Cannith Manufactory" being a potential SNAFU.

Korthos Island having a quest that you may not able to proceed through without half a dozen tries?

That's a game-killer.

No one on Earth would keep playing after such a first experience.

Hey Cordovan -

It's been a weekend, what's the feeling over there in DDO land?

Any feedback from our feedback?

Are we just spitting down a well?



Only in Heroic quests.

DDO has made Epic Mobs simply ignore the game rules and break CC in a fraction of the advertised duration so it doesn't work there with Epic mobs who cheat.

Why in general you are right that protection quests really got extra tough (cannith crystal on elite anyone?), this is no longer true for the much maligned Hold for reinforcements - because since U23 Coyle can not even be killed, and its an optional to protect him from going down (for a solid chunk of XP, but still).

I have noticed that these NPCs we have to protect, as well as all our hirelings really need to get updated with the current state of enhancements, buffs, MRR, PRR etc, because not only are hirelings getting near useless to heal / protect anyone, they are usually one shotted first!

[Blackheartox]

/grovel

Oh thank you, oh benevolent Blackheart sir. Thank you that you did not whip us further. Thank you that we can now play in your version of the game. We are very sorry that we did not see your way as perfect from the start. Thank you, oh lordship that you did not also take away our crit boost. We are sorry that we cannot play as well as you and should simply shut the up and go away and stop ruining your game. Thank you, your worship for allowing us to grovel in your glory, we promise to never try to have fun again, unless it is in accordance with your will.

/grovel more.

Was funny to read.
But still has nothing to do with fact that palies are still super strong and strongest melles overall.
It is not a multiple build thing bdw.
Put a heavy armor, 2 hander simple repair or devotion augment and viola.
Put a bastard, go to vanguard and get 2 hander feats and viola again.

Alrdy superb defenses with no lack of offense.
Go to enchantment tree and spend ap on stance upgrade, viola better defense.
Does rogue have that option? No
Does barb have that option? No
Does any other class have the option to gain such massive selfhealing, while keeping dps and defense in top form ee viable?
Not really, only couple exploit builds will outperform paladins, and those are alrdy noted to be fixed in future.
Also every paladin HAS acess to both zeal and holy sword at same time, its a feature not for specialized palie builds but simply for a 15 minimum levels palie.

So what is the point of everything you say?
Nothing.
There is no point, you are just someone who has his feelings hurt that his toy that is better then everyones has been toned down.
It is still one of the best toys around.

Prove me wrong that palie is not top dps even after the minor nerf if we include the buff they got via amp and smite fix.
Please prove me

[Scrabbler]

Here is one change that could help with the information problem with Monster Champions:

Champion buffs are no longer assigned randomly per-Champion. Instead, for each dungeon there are 3 sets of Champion buffs: Yellow, Grey, and Brown. Those sets are permanent, and assigned randomly for each dungeon (or overridden by a designer). When a Monster Champion spawns in that dungeon, it will use one of those 3 buff combinations, and change the color of the crown icon to show which set it's using.

That way instead of each individual Champion having the possibility of the whole range of buffs, the players can learn and know what they do and mean.

[dragonofsteel2]

The champion system really does not make old quest fun to me at all. I still solo them on EE it just takes more time and I have to dance around more and heal more. I also use more cc. Does it really add new tactics to the game? No not at all. Do the really reward me for the additional challenge? Again no, junk loot means nothing. (More of reward for new players that must likely can not handle it.) I disagree with people saying we need more of a challenge. It all about challenge vs reward. If you only make the challenge harder with bad rewards, replay last about 1 day to a week then boredom sets in again. This to me is another Turbine consumables sale point. I ask myself if the system makes the game better, and my thought is no. Does it make some people happy, sure. Is that the crowd that will keep your game alive for years to come? I doubt it.

Rewards need to be added to make it worth the challenge. Heroic low level quest need less of a boost and lower crown %. Really how many vet's play low levels that want a big challenge. If really about a challenge to them they would run quest naked with weaker spells and dump con. The people just want to see other struggle so they can feel good about themselves and there ddo accomplishments. This game simple comes down to this to me. Reward vs Time vs challenge. If these elements do not balance out it becomes boring fast. This is why I believe there needs to be more benefit to running EE and Elite quest. That would make the change more acceptable to me. Right now u can run all the quest on normal and get all the stuff you need to run any end game content. Also raids for caster without using pots become boring. Just can not output the damage melee or range do without using lots of pots. Free spells system is garbage. Having to spend feats to have some decide spells is stupid. Why do we never get new good spells? Make them unlock-able with content, so you will not have use of them to early in the game progress.

[Ayseifn]

While you are correct, what you are suggesting is not fun. I've wanted to be able to start iconic classes at level 1 since they were launched because I hate running quests over level just to get favor. Its boring and tedious. I'd rather start at level one and have to earn all the xp up to 15 and get the favor as I go.

EE and heroic elite at level felt that way for me for a while now with few exceptions, boring and tedious. Now they're dynamic and I have to pay attention, yes that means before this update most of the game was boring and tedious and why I've only come back recently after taking a few months off.

While some believe that EE was too easy before the champions, some of use felt EE was quite the challenge. Last update was the FIRST time I had ever been able to do ANY stormhorns on EE. I got the first two done. I was not able to complete Breaking the Ranks (and I fear what it looks like now with champions.)

You still have hard and normal though, until this update I only had those extreme challenge quests, soloing something new to me or the like. Everything else was boring and tedious and heck even those harder quests were a cake walk with a decent group.

Get rid of bravery bonus and maybe bump xp on all difficulty levels so there even less reason to care about elite IMO.

[phillymiket]

Unless changed, this will divide game into two groups:
- Already multiple TRs. (will run Elite content.)
- Not-yet TR. (will never be able to TR, realistically speaking, as they will lose the benefit of Bravery Bonus).

Yeah, I though reducing the gap in player power between the best and worst would be something to strive for.

But apparently the problem was 1st lifers joining an Elite Party every now and then and not Vets blowing through EE raids solo.

Therefore, I guess, this new system of road-blocking new people while letting the EE raid solo'ers continue as is was needed.

I just don't understand how these things work, i guess, because that seems bass-akward to me.

[lyrecono]

Just ran Gladewatch Outpost defense.

Really loving these champions, especially when they 1-shot the NPC you have to protect.
Yes, 1 spell and commander Tesara Died, she could handle the normal mobs just fine, but a champion spellcaster took her down with 1 spell in 2 different runs.

But you know, as long as it adds challenge right!
I'm sure I could just get better gear and I would succeed.. oh wait.

6 manned the first baudryman quest in the harbor (protect the crate in the midle, 5 resets later we lucked out, 2 hits from a champion kobold destroy it. Crate can not be repaired

You do know you can't heal a dead npc right? If an npc dies in 1 hit, there's no saving him or her.

The scaling a full group would cause, will only make this harder.

In the old days champions didn't exist so you could complete the quest succesfully, I agree with you on that.

This!
party scalling ifluences difficulty, you get more and harder champions, npc's die faster.

Not to argue with you, but just to point out... You don't have to do the quest at Level to get the favor...

Just Running quests on Normal can get you to 20. you can then go back and run many quests on Elite for Favor. There are Some quests such as Stealthy Repossession that I usually skip until such time as I can run it with a red alert and not worry... 3000 favor is actually very simple to achieve using this method. If you have a Lvl 15-20 character that has problems running an Elite Waterworks, even with the champion system, there is deeper problems than the champion system...

funny you should say this.
This weekend i saw someone with the new goggles (four eyes), the stats are terrible compaired to what i have but they look awesome enough to make a cosmettic out of it, perfect to goof of in a raid group XD
so i took my lv 28 triple completionist into heroic hard (lv 19 on hard), buffed myself, left a lv 27 healing hire at the door for backup, after 3 deaths in the first room (all oneshotted my 1500hpp) i resetted the instance, after 4 resets i gave up, how are people at lv 18to 20 supposed to do those quests?

Hey Cordovan -

It's been a weekend, what's the feeling over there in DDO land?

Any feedback from our feedback?

Are we just spitting down a well?

qouted for the lols, thanks for making me laugh on this dreary topic

[Alisonique]

Hokay, time for my 2d,
I started a new character off at lv 7 to see what a new version barbarian might be like,
and ran some of the House D stuff (depths of)on hard, to pick up favour. Within the first of the series I had fought
a champion earth elemental,champion zombie, champion rust monster, champion violet ooze, several champion troglodytes, champion hellhound, and then for the boss fight it was all champions. I like the idea that not all monsters will be run of the mill
and thought that was what the various named creatures were. But really every encounter should have a champion level creature????Really?

[Ayseifn]

Yeah, I though reducing the gap in player power between the best and worst would be something to strive for.

But apparently the problem was 1st lifers joining an Elite Party every now and then and not Vets blowing through EE raids solo.

Therefore, I guess, this new system of road-blocking new people while letting the EE raid solo'ers continue as is was needed.

I just don't understand how these things work, i guess, because that seems bass-akward to me.

Fortification bypass on mobs bypass all fortification AFAIK, with PLs and stuff I'm only at 168 but that's something that affects everyone equally. Same deal with True Seeing, new players don't have scads of displace clickies. So there's some things here that are great for new and old, but yeah there really could be more.

Edit: The randomness is also relatively new/old agnostic as no one knows what lies around the next corner, could be the same as always for vets or some uber champ ready to murder.

Also the issue of ranged allegedly getting a mostly free pass on champs is something that might need looking into.

[Connman]

For each reincarnation, you should generate +5% threat vs. champions.

Being able to take this as one of the active past life feats, stacking +5%/+10%/+15%. Having it as an active feat would allow veteran toons of any build with an extra feat to be able to generate the hate to take the agro off of younger toons.

And if we are going to be having champions, some feats specifically with those in mind would be nice.

[haulindonkey]

Base chance for a mob to be a champion should be lowered.
5% hard (1 in 20), 10% elite (1 in 10)

Party adjustment:
Percentage champion chance should be raised for every reincarnation.
(+0.5% chance a mob is champion for each reincarnation (TR or Epic) currently present in instance.)
So, for example, a (6 TR, 4 ER character) would raise the chance by 5%. (10 reinc x 0.5%)
A second (2 TR, 2 ER character) would raise the chance by another 2%, etc.

For the sake of balance, (and keeping as many players happy as practical), champions should prefer to attack more powerful, reincarnated characters.
For each reincarnation, you should generate +5% threat vs. champions.
The TR/ER players who want a challenge will get what they ask for, and less powerful characters will be squashed less.

Champions are a good concept. The workings need to be adjusted.

Champions should have a more random assortment of buffs/debuffs.

As currently implemented, champions will be a turn-off for new (non-TR/ER) players.
It will not encourage partying... non-TR players will be excluded from parties.

Excluded players get fed up and leave for a game they can play.
We need new players to keep DDO funded/going.

Unless changed, this will divide game into two groups:
- Already multiple TRs. (will run Elite content.)
- Not-yet TR. (will never be able to TR, realistically speaking, as they will lose the benefit of Bravery Bonus).

I played a game that divided players into groups like this before... I stopped playing that game.
Even though I was fairly powerful myself, I didn't enjoy playing in that kind of environment.

Also, there needs to be some reward associated with the risk/effort involved.

Champions should:
- Give guild renown
- Count as optional quest exp (CR x20 experience maybe)
- Have random chance chest drop (with +1 Loot Table)

These ideas sound pretty decent and well thought out. I would definitely support implementation of some, if not all of these ideas in one form or another...

[haulindonkey]

Agree champions are a very nice addition.
Master's blitz is way OP now, and Holy Sword should be reverted back to how it was in U23.

Or we could revert pallies back to how they were say update 20.... But in all seriousness i think things for pallies are fine now, sorry if the 250% buff of the last update or two was nerfed down to 200% over say... Update 21. Not feeling sorry for paladins at all!