Monster Champion Feedback

[BDog77]

So, just got done running Necro 1 on my rogue and I've found myself flashing back to my pen and paper days. I joined a party of friends and we proceeded to run the quests as we would before the update. Before champs were introduced and could kill us in 2 hits. 17 total deaths. 17. I'll say it once more..... 17.

See, but this is part of the problem. I and my friends just ran 2 of the Necro 1 quests last night on our TR train. 1 death from a forgotten trap and lag. HE of course and we also ran it the way we would have back in the day.

That's the problem with random, your group and our group supposedly ran these quests on the same difficulties, and while yours was a horror, ours was a cakewalk.

If people can't see why this is a punishing change to the game rather than a challenging one, well, I don't know what more to say....

[Hilltrot]

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

[Kawai]

you know in the old days, we had 1-2 players stand by the side entrance to guard it. a cleric would stand near the main doorway spot healing them as needed and the rest of the party was in front of the cleric killing the mass mobs running towards the doorway get their heals from a cleric.

translate to today and could do the same thing and be team players helping each other out and have 1 capable of healing to guard the NPC.

Sound like you are assuming things? I was soloing on hard. She got killed with 1 spell on hard.

Guarding the npc? The npc that runs after every enemy she sees? For melee mobs, sure, but spellcasters can actually cast at range.
If she actually decided to stay inside that tactic would MAYBE work, but fixing the AI will have to wait, they're too busy introducing other frustrating features first.

u can lead a horse to water...

[Sushiboat]

that's why you get some warm bodies to help using tactics like 1 guarding the NPC while the others draw the agro of the mobs before getting inside. sounds like you were soloing on elite?

right, Champions didn't exist then but grouping was the standard when normal was considered tough.

To be fair, the babysitters job is probably terrible then. Assuming the reports are accurate, an enemy caster having line of sight to Tesara is most likely a fail. So the babysitter is unlikely to see anything, unless someone else in the party messes up their job.

I kind of like EllisDee's suggestion to make the NPC's champions as well. At the very least, Commander Tesara ought to be a fairly respectable combatant. Coyle, on the other hand....

Sound like you are assuming things? I was soloing on hard. She got killed with 1 spell on hard.

Guarding the npc? The npc that runs after every enemy she sees? For melee mobs, sure, but spellcasters can actually cast at range.
If she actually decided to stay inside that tactic would MAYBE work, but fixing the AI will have to wait, they're too busy introducing other frustrating features first.

Check out the wiki entry for that quest. It doesn't do anything for what you believe is the underlying problem, but it should help you complete that specific quest (assuming you yourself are able to survive the mobs).

[Keladon]

Check out the wiki entry for that quest. It doesn't do anything for what you believe is the underlying problem, but it should help you complete that specific quest (assuming you yourself are able to survive the mobs).

I have, I prefer to not exploit game mechanics to circumvent a recently implemented feature. I'm sure that wasn't the intention of the devs either.

But it is good advice for people who don't mind using that 'trick' though, so it could at least help others.

[Hydian]

Ran some dungeons to check this out. A couple of different first life 24's, a first life 22, a second life 17 and a second life 6. Not top builds, no raid gear, no henchmen. Running solo obviously puts dungeon scaling into effect, so keep that in mind as well.

Overall, the champions were slightly interesting, but didn't add too much to the experience. I adjusted my aggro list to put them near the top and only ran into trouble once when I took what appeared to be FoD spam from a pair of deathknights. I saw both groups that were as much as 50% champions and large groups without any champions, so the RNG is at work. I suspect that the champions would have a larger effect on casters than melee or ranged builds.

More hitpoints just increases the amount of time it takes to chew through the mob's defenses. Damage reduction is the same. Any decent melee will get through that no matter how much you add until you reach a point where it is simply impossible. With casters, you could really be killing their resources for a trash mob.

Suggestion: More interesting effects...persistent damage shields, PBAoE slow or trip effects, maybe something like the drow priestess' sacrifice ability...I'm sure that there are all sorts of odd effects that could be added in that aren't directly damage or hitpoints that would turn a straightforward fight into something that takes a different tactic to finish.

Suggestion: Maybe make the chances for a mob to be a champion based upon the surrounding mobs...say there is a base chance adjusted by the number of champions already within X feet of the spawn point. That way the chances increase if there aren't any champions already up and decrease if there are.

[poltt48]

Reading all posts devs are putting out on champions they really not going to change them. Witch is sad my guild has now had 3 people quit they game cause of them all people that been playing pale masters mains forever. Kind of sucks when you triple triple completionist pale masters are useless. Devs if you want can send you guys links to guild forums where people are leaving game cause the champions are way to many in quests. I don't know what quests your are running but run any quest where you have to fight waves of mobs in it and you will not find a single wave without at least 4 champion mobs. Some waves up to 10 at one time. 90% of the people here are telling you there spawning way more then 10% in a quest and you keep sticking your head in the sand saying no possible way quests you run are 10%. Just really sad hate seeing good people leave the game.

[Powerhungry]

Just for kicks I ran this on EH (almost everyone runs on EN for tokens). I wanted to check the champion experience in it. The first three spawns each included three bearded devils- in each case all three were crowned. That's 9 bearded devils in the first three spawns, plus a additional 2 scorpion champs. 11 champions out of the first 20 or so critters....
It calmed down a bit after that but with almost 200 kills about 25% were champions.
2 chests dropped.
This was on a pure cleric warpriest/divine crusader (level 27) - so no mortal fear.
The champion caster and archer (spamming hamstring) were tougher to deal with than any of the bosses.
I let the bosses beat on me until I managed to get all the champion archers and casters.
While not EE, as a pure melee I had little trouble (I seldom soloed EE pre-champions anyways).
Tone down the frequency - they spawn too often and there is no incentive to have them (an extra chest to a multi-lifer is just more vendor trash)

[Powerhungry]

Just for kicks I ran this on EH (almost everyone runs on EN for tokens). I wanted to check the champion experience in it. The first three spawns each included three bearded devils- in each case all three were crowned. That's 9 bearded devils in the first three spawns, plus a additional 2 scorpion champs. 11 champions out of the first 20 or so critters....
It calmed down a bit after that but with almost 200 kills about 25% were champions.
2 chests dropped.
This was on a pure cleric warpriest/divine crusader (level 27) - so no mortal fear.
The champion caster and archer (spamming hamstring) were tougher to deal with than any of the bosses.
I let the bosses beat on me until I managed to get all the champion archers and casters.
While not EE, as a pure melee I had little trouble (I seldom soloed EE pre-champions anyways).
Tone down the frequency - they spawn too often and there is no incentive to have them (an extra chest to a multi-lifer is just more vendor trash)

Won't let me edit -
Best defense against the champions since almost everyone of them has TS/DW is to trip them. Try it. Trust me.

[Sehenry03]

Won't let me edit -
Best defense against the champions since almost everyone of them has TS/DW is to trip them. Try it. Trust me.

All CC works great on them. Even the Dev mentioned that they intentionally left them vulnerable to CC.

The problem is people don't want to have to use strategy. They want to be able to cakewalk through everything.

Trip, Stunning Blow, Ottos, etc ALL work the same on champs as it does on normal mobs.

[redoubt]

Why, they existed back when content was much harder than it is now. If anything I'd think they'd be happy. I mean, what's the point of permadeath when it's impossible to die?

If you had tried permadeath you would know that it was not impossible to die.

We take for granted:
ship buffs
twink gear
extra build points
plat to buy potions

When you run without ship buffs using the fire touched weapon you got from Jeets and break every box to collect copper pieces and cure light pots, the game is far more fatal.

[hit_fido]

As a more specific feedback, suggest to review combinations of buffs especially on spell caster mobs. Examples:

- scorching ray from a champion mob hitting after energy resistance for ~65 each ray, with some other added damage (sonic?) at another ~35 per ray, that's a one shot on a 200 hp character in level 8 quest. Hard to dodge the rays and really no time at all to view the champion stats first to know how dangerous that one was.

- any mob previously casting searing light or whatever that wears crown amps up the threat quite a bit for undead players - that may or may not be intentional but now searing light looks to hit (in some level 7-9 quests) for between 130-175 at 200% vulnerability, which is at or very near one shot level, though I haven't yet seen a similar combo as above where the light is added with some random elemental damage.

I question whether you need to add random elemental damage on top of already amplified spell damage - as well as whether light damage should be amplified as much as a general rule given undead players already have an inherent weakness that was supposed to balance their benefits. This is all stuff hitting from a distance with consequently less time to react. Personally I think either double damage OR added effects on top of regular damage would be enough to amp the threat level from a champion, whether its a caster or a melee mob.

The undead/light example also make me curious how hard a champion rust monster could hit a construct player...

[minimomo]

you make this game an endless loop of tring for me. i guess that is etring for others.

every loop takes at least 3 weeks in my case and i play pretty hardcore (yes there are others even more hardcore and they can do it faster. i can only feel sorry for them...)

so for a fighter life that will give me plus 1 to attack and dc to tactical feats... i must burn 3 weeks from my life. you follow? and even when i am finally a completionist all it will give me is 2 to all stats and skills...

now you added these champions and one of them in that new f2p quest were able to kill me in heroic elite while i was level 25. this is just unacceptable! 10 of them normal mobs in that quest together cant kill me but one of them and alone can one shot me even though i am greatly overleveled?

harry in shroud cant kill me but random champion can?

devourer of dreams or white dragon from or yalthoon cant kill me but that random champion can?

awesome!

next update introduce us zeus lightning maybe? just listen to the idea it is really good i promise: the more monsters you kill zeus gets more ****ed off. when he is really ****ed of he throws you an unavoidable sure to kill lightning bolt from heavens so you make sure we die.

first give us 9876 ship buffs.

then buff random monsters too.

then maybe add 847657 more bufffs to ship buffs so we can kill them easily again?

you are impossible ddo.

[Seikojin]

I have been running a fresh tr from lvl 1 with very little twinking gear (saves on bank space). I and all the other players I have played with since release has loved the champions and feel they add the right level of difficulty to the quest.

However, they also feel champs should:
1. offer more reward.
2. Have a higher chance of chest dropping for orange named champions.

I also would like to add in:
On higher difficulties, oranged named mini-bosses should appear more frequently. So if on Normal the chance is 5%, hard is 10, and elite is 15, I think it should be bumped up to 5, 20, 50. Not for champion versions, just the appearance of the named mobs in the first place.

I also think on Hard, 50% of orange nameds should be champions and 100% of them on elite should be champions.

I like their abilities for the most part. I haven't felt like they were too overpowered. On heroic or epic. I like the idea of being able to nerf them with dispelling. I like that cc and tacticals work on them.

So far, I love their inclusion and I would also like to see them in wilderness and in raids. At the end of the day, they are never too strong that you cannot overcome them with good tactical gameplay, or a properly powered and balanced party. So put them everywhere.

Oh an additional issue: Orange named chests can sometimes pop high in the air.

[Tokeri]

this weekend has been great, the game feels diffrent with champs in the quests, several times this week in various level ranges have i heard the pug i was in go "think we can handle elite?" its great.
i have some thoughts on champs id like to share after both playing and reading these threads.

at the moment champions are basicly extremely buffed trash and any form of CC will in most cases negate the whole champ buff, they need to have better stats since once we get used to them they are nothing, CC>focus>dead champ nuke the rest move on
except for a few champion types that have innate immunites as a type and class or specific spells used for example
Ghaele Cleric's in particular that should be of note with almost any type of champ buffs becomes a nightmare with their innate abilites and spell list
http://ddowiki.com/page/Ghaele_Cleric - proper champs :P

except for a few zeppelin versions of bloated mobs, the combination of a hit points buff and an already large base pool of hp that takes 15 years to pop i havent really come across any champ that i will remeber that wasn't a named mob, i suggest that you might want to consider categorizeing mobs after their type if the champ already is a walking sack of hp maybe exclude the hp buff from him as a buff and give him a higher chance for damage mods and vice versa for high damage types same with caster mobs frankly i think caster mobs might need their own set of buffs all together to make them distinct from other champ the biggest grief for anyone right now is stepping around a corner and eating hyped up no-save spell that deals 70-100% of ones hp thats just cheap, although thats pretty rare but it happens casters apears to be the biggest of the baddies atm when it comes to champions not counting low level high hitting trainwrecks but champions past the point of 300-400+ hp

id like to see more champion buffs and some more love put into the champion code to categorize champion type with mob type.
i love u24 so far i got nothing bad to say about it, except maybe give me more u24.

[Theolin]

Just ran heroic Elite Von 4 ... the earth elemental was a crowned guy ....
5000+ hps????? and his earth grab did 200 damage ????
I don't think the ele should have 9x the HPs as what is normal for them

[dunklezhan]

All CC works great on them. Even the Dev mentioned that they intentionally left them vulnerable to CC.

The problem is people don't want to have to use strategy. They want to be able to cakewalk through everything.

Trip, Stunning Blow, Ottos, etc ALL work the same on champs as it does on normal mobs.

trip specced vanguard PDK my mate has works exceptionally well. That's at heroic elite, mind. Epic i think he's going to be even better with the way he's got his ED synergies set up.

[Keladon]

I have been running a fresh tr from lvl 1 with very little twinking gear (saves on bank space). I and all the other players I have played with since release has loved the champions and feel they add the right level of difficulty to the quest.

However, they also feel champs should:
1. offer more reward.
2. Have a higher chance of chest dropping for orange named champions.

I also would like to add in:
On higher difficulties, oranged named mini-bosses should appear more frequently. So if on Normal the chance is 5%, hard is 10, and elite is 15, I think it should be bumped up to 5, 20, 50. Not for champion versions, just the appearance of the named mobs in the first place.

I also think on Hard, 50% of orange nameds should be champions and 100% of them on elite should be champions.

I like their abilities for the most part. I haven't felt like they were too overpowered. On heroic or epic. I like the idea of being able to nerf them with dispelling. I like that cc and tacticals work on them.

So far, I love their inclusion and I would also like to see them in wilderness and in raids. At the end of the day, they are never too strong that you cannot overcome them with good tactical gameplay, or a properly powered and balanced party. So put them everywhere.

Oh an additional issue: Orange named chests can sometimes pop high in the air.

So are you telling me I should look for a static group to be able to overcome champions? Because looking for a party takes a while, looking for a powered and balanced party .. I might aswell not play at all then.
And what exactly is tactical gameplay? Kiting? Hiding behind corners? Or run up to them to trip them only to get a hold spell cast on me and die seconds later?

[Monkey-Boy]

And what exactly is tactical gameplay? Kiting? Hiding behind corners? Or run up to them to trip them only to get a hold spell cast on me and die seconds later?

"Tactical" Gameplay = the lame and exploitive BS we used to do at level 20 when "epics" were "epic."

[minimomo]

this is not chess. this is not dungeons and dragons anymore. it is too late for tactical things now.
,
there are too many freaking quests in one life to be always in tactical mode.

i run all those quests so many times already i hate them all. i want to finish them as quickly as i can!

this is an mmo like muonline now. endlessly reincarnate/rebirth for little or big bonuses as fast as you can.

it is a race. if it wasnt a race and if it was hit level 30 then stay there forever then i would love the tactical things. but i am already too freaking behind and you are making my grind much MUCH harder than theirs.

and i yet to start etring. still working on tr completionist.

how is that fair?