Monster Champion Feedback

[brian14]

So here is a champion-related question…


How do you 'Examine" the champions to see what buffs they have? I try to click on the little gear thing on the focus orb when I have a champion targeted, but all it does it show the tooltip "EXAMINE" and nothing happens. Is there another way to do it? I'm on a Mac, if that matters.

when mob is in focus orb, press z.

[geckosith]

I am a former VIP player that left the game for a while and just recently came back. I eagerly looked forward to update 24. Here is my feedback.

First, the positives. The changes made to Barbarian are awesome and much appreciated. I have an Occult Slayer and loved it, but losing my weapon stacks when I had to use a scroll or switch weapons was a big problem. I also appreciate that you shortened the animation for Paladin Exalted smites. Smiting is much more useful now. These changes are great and I thank you very much for them!

But the hot button issue is the champions. Champions are a strange idea now that I think about it more. If you find a level appropriate elite quest too easy, why not do a quest that is rated one or two levels above your level? Challenge added.

While the idea of randomly buffed enemies in quests is interesting to me, I find it to be poorly implemented. For example: Yesterday I was in a group running Blockade Buster on elite(heroic). We encountered a champion here or there, and while they were indeed tougher, we were still having fun. However, on the third boat, as soon as we stepped into the lower decks we were instantly surrounded by 6-7 mobs, *4* of which were champions. They were upon us instantly and in that small room, taken by surprise, there was nothing we could do. We died almost instantly.

Champions, as they are, are broken. I can break it down into 3 points:

1: Champions are *too* powerful. A champion should be no more powerful than a player could be at that level. For example: I am unaware of any player buff that grants quadruple damage, at any level. Scale it down and make it level appropriate.

2: Champions should not be able to spawn so close together. It doesn't always happen, but champions shouldn't be able to mass spawn at all. Space them out so that you can't get gang raped by a whole gang of them.

3: The Champions destroy the game balance system that you have carefully crafted. Quest difficulty levels don't mean much anymore. The challenge level of a quest is supposed to represent what kind of danger level you can expect throughout the quest, and at what power level you should be to be able to consistently handle the challenges therein. Entering a level appropriate quest, and then getting blindsided by one or more monsters that are far, far more powerful than the quest was designed for feels cheap, not challenging. Extra credits did a nice(and short) piece on challenge here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

I lied, I have a number 4. 4: It feels like the champions are designed to appease the exploiters that do not *play* the game. They have spent who knows how long and how many TRs getting some sort of super gear, figuring out some kind of trick to exploit a flaw in your design that lets them do things that break the game, or poor up to thousands of dollars into the DDO store every month. Of course the game is too easy for them--they broke it a long time ago. You simply cannot appease such people, and if you try, you will alienate everybody else that plays the game as intended.

So, some good things about the update that I love, some things that do not work as they are. Tweak the champions somewhat and they might be fun.

[Bigrtt]

I'll simple add this. I loved the idea of monster champions at first, the rare chance to find a powerful mob to kill. In reality though, they're incredibly common, even to the point they're annoying, and the buffs they have especially at the lower levels on elite are pretty ridiculous. I have a pretty good AC, HP and PRR on my current TR toon and I'm still getting taken down very quick. It should be fun, but it's not. I do hope there's a change soon, even if it's only making a big reduction on how many champs there can be on a quest by quest basis.

Worth a mention that in a group, champions are no issue. But I regularly solo due to the timezone I'm in and the fact that I just don't feel like taking a quest slow and helping someone find their way around. With the way it is right now I've lost pretty much all interest in even trying to play.

[geckosith]

So here is a champion-related question…


How do you 'Examine" the champions to see what buffs they have? I try to click on the little gear thing on the focus orb when I have a champion targeted, but all it does it show the tooltip "EXAMINE" and nothing happens. Is there another way to do it? I'm on a Mac, if that matters.

What I wonder is how I am expected to have the luxury of trying to examine a Champion. I can't call a truce and expect him to stop trying to kill me while I examine him.

[bartharok]

Ive run some elites, and havent gotten one-shot by anything yet. IF the people who claim legendary damage are telling the truth, it may be that something is leaking over from the epics. On elite elite (or hard) the champions are more dangerous than the rest, but not overpoweringly so. Oh, there was a dog in LoD HE that seemed to have rather insane hitpoints (had to stun it 10 times before i managed to get it to 0), but otherwise i havent had much trouble with them.

And as for melees being non-viable now that the champions have arrived, they are just as easy to trip/stun/whatever as the rest.

hmm... the fact that i stun the champions as soon as i see them MIGHT have somethign to do with them not being able to one-shot me, but then the problem is solved anyways, isnt it.

And while there can be a lot of them at times, usually its not an unmanageable number

[Connman]

So I could certainly understand your feelings up until right here...

I lied, I have a number 4. 4: It feels like the champions are designed to appease the exploiters that do not *play* the game. They have spent who knows how long and how many TRs getting some sort of super gear, figuring out some kind of trick to exploit a flaw in your design that lets them do things that break the game, or poor up to thousands of dollars into the DDO store every month. Of course the game is too easy for them--they broke it a long time ago. You simply cannot appease such people, and if you try, you will alienate everybody else that plays the game as intended.

So, some good things about the update that I love, some things that do not work as they are. Tweak the champions somewhat and they might be fun.

When you accuse every single person that has ground out levels and gear of being cheaters because they have what you don't.

Of and if their are people spending thousands of dollars a month, you know what I say whatever they want. Yeah that's right, I love the monster champions but am willing to give them up if there are actually people paying thousands of dollars a month to keep this game afloat and they want them gone.

[Noir]

In the 1st week of March 2006 I started playing this game.
It was my first ever MMO.
I am not uber. I am a altaholic (have 26 alts.) My strongest character only has 4 lives.
I remember the game as it was. Balanced groups or tactics won the day. not steamroller zerging.
The challenge and possibility of failure is a return to the games roots.
On Khyber I will be be hosting either hard or normal runs again to assist anyone that will want to group with me.
I have rogues and healers parked at various levels to complete holes in a party if required.
I welcome the new champion's with open arms.

[IronClan]

I, for one, welcome our new Champion overlords.

Suddenly failure is at least a hint of a possibility. Though they honestly need to make the buff more varried and randomness seems too "evenly dispersed" and not random enough... I want to go an hour without seeing one and then enter a room with three of them all with wildly different buffs.

I want to see one and then none for a bit and then realize the Boss has random buffs. I don't want them to one shot more than very occasionally and that should be a result of player mistake, weakness to an element, or freak "outlyer" combo of just the right 3 or 4 buffs to make the mobs super strong at one specific thing.

I would also like to see more variation on the CC spells they cast and their Saves against our CC should not be predictably weak.

Says the fully tuned vet. Try on a less than optimal built and/or geared character on EH at level.

Hard is by definition supposed to be hard... ESPECIALLY for less than optimally built and/or geared that's why Normal exists.

The real problem is people feel entitled to the easy Hard setting they've grown fond of.... they naturally enjoy getting Hard XP rewards for facerolling content with zero chance of failure and very little chance of even having a repair bill.

You know the last time I was in a Party wipe? it was about 5 or 6 months ago. You know the last time I was in a EH party wipe? I am not 100% sure but I believe it was a Madstone crater right after eGH came out (so almost a year and a half)... I'm not bragging, I am not an uber, I have a ton of alts that are not nearly uber geared...

Hopefully Turbine looks at Bravery Bonus and realizes that part of the problem is no one wants to run Normal because they've have so overly incentivized the BB streak.

Maybe this will be the issue that drives the point home...

[geckosith]

So I could certainly understand your feelings up until right here...



When you accuse every single person that has ground out levels and gear of being cheaters because they have what you don't.

Of and if their are people spending thousands of dollars a month, you know what I say whatever they want. Yeah that's right, I love the monster champions but am willing to give them up if there are actually people paying thousands of dollars a month to keep this game afloat and they want them gone.

Oh, don't misunderstand me, I have no hate for people that have sunk a lot of time into the game and are very good at it. Far from it, really. I'm into my 2nd TR myself. That ain't cheating. I simply meant to say that in any mmo there are a small but vocal number of players that do not accurately represent the game's player base at large. Balance is tricky.

Also, I'll admit, I got ranty on number 4

[Powerhungry]

Ran Eh Inferno of the Damned
several random champions - WAI
all 4 fire elementals and all 4 cinder spawns were champions - random? WAI? I doubt it

They're already orange-named and one might be a champion, but EVERY one of them?

ran EH Fleshmaker's Laboratory
Some random champions - WAI
Every apprentice was champion - random? WAI? I doubt it -

They're already orange-named and one might be a champion, but EVERY one of them?

Not 10% as advertised and not random - orange named and mini bosses clearly have a higher % of being a champion

[Hesiodthepoet]

I have been playing this game since beta and this is the first feature that has truly made me want to stop questing. I ran an EH where I was hit for 750+ damage in one hit by a regular mob. Also ran into a skelly that was almost immune to bludgeon. No reason, just random buffs. I like a challenging quest when you can learn it and eventually succeed!! Tis just adds absolute frustration randomly. If you want "champions" it should be 1-2 on normal, 2-4 hard and 3-5 elite. there should also be an added bonus for them. ANY champion should drop a chest. hard should have 1-2 astral shards as well, and elite should have a chance of special items (mirror of glimmering, pets, cosmetics, etc) in addition to a few shards. Or just scrap the whole idea. Either way i'd be back to play, but not when I fail to random chance every other time. (well, i'm exagerating there, but you get the idea )

[geckosith]

I, for one, welcome our new Champion overlords.

The real problem is people feel entitled to the easy Hard setting they've grown fond of.... they naturally enjoy getting Hard XP rewards for facerolling content with zero chance of failure and very little chance of even having a repair bill.

...

Hopefully Turbine looks at Bravery Bonus and realizes that part of the problem is no one wants to run Normal because they've have so overly incentivized the BB streak.

Maybe this will be the issue that drives the point home...

^ This. Normal might as well not exist as is. Elite is normal.

[FestusHood]

The real problem is people feel entitled to the easy Hard setting they've grown fond of.... they naturally enjoy getting Hard XP rewards for facerolling content with zero chance of failure and very little chance of even having a repair bill.

I kind of see what you are saying here. It's very important to stop this enjoying that's been going on.

[BDog77]

3: The Champions destroy the game balance system that you have carefully crafted. Quest difficulty levels don't mean much anymore. The challenge level of a quest is supposed to represent what kind of danger level you can expect throughout the quest, and at what power level you should be to be able to consistently handle the challenges therein. Entering a level appropriate quest, and then getting blindsided by one or more monsters that are far, far more powerful than the quest was designed for feels cheap, not challenging. Extra credits did a nice(and short) piece on challenge here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

You, sir, are an absolute genius! That video says absolutely everything I wanted to say to the Devs of this game when this idea of "Champions" was first introduced. The video could have been made just for this update in this game. I wish it was mandatory for every Dev working on DDO to have to watch it.

Beyond that, I am one of those people who was carefully sitting in the middle, but I will tell y'all what my feelings are now. I don't like this implementation of Champions.

I think that all of the problems that I foresaw when we discussed this on Lamma have come to fruition, and are probably even worse than I thought they would be.

1. Champions are indeed overly punishing to melees. I realize that the Devs thought that by making spellcasting champions and even archer champions that this would spread the love around a bit, but unfortunately melees get to deal with those enemies AS WELL as the specifically antimelee MOBs. Who gets the most sight aggro? Generally the first person through the door, generally the melees. We are right back to where we were pre U23, Casters and Kiters are again king. That's about the shortest turnaround I have ever seen in this game.

2. Without adding significant challenge (I'm ignoring the 1 shotting since that is not challenge), Champions have added to the time to complete dungeons again, undoing everything that was good about U23 (best thing being that it did not take forever to kill a single MOB, another thing being that a melee could stand next to a single MOB, and be reasonably sure they could defeat it (ya know, 100s of MOBs, one of us, if we can't handle a single MOB without hopping around like a bunny, it ain't much of a game), making part of a melee's defense (cause, you know, the "few" of us without 200 PRR and shadowscale do actually rely on ghostly, blur, and displacement to stand next to a single MOB) useless).

3. By bringing these "Champions" into heroic, they are actually messing with the part of the game that was reasonably well balanced (of course, they had already started messing with this by adding MP into trees at less than 20th level, despite originally saying that MP was a way to scale damage into Epics), and mucking that up.

4. These Champions also completely destroyed the balance between normal, hard, and elite, especially in heroic levels. It would be conceivable to have a series of champions spawn in a Hard version of a quest, wipe a party, have the same party quit, enter the same quest on elite, and have a much easier time of it (not so much in Epics since I believe EE is too much harder than EH, but certainly possible in heroics where the differences between normal, hard, and elite might be a few spells). This is nonsensical, and I believe would absolutely frustrate the heck out of me if I were a new player.

So, yeah, in short, I think champions are horrible. An ill-conceived, rushed out, poorly implemented, knee jerk reaction to the complaints (or maybe revealed by playtesting) that EE had become too easy. If that is truly the problem, then fix EE (and please, make it challenging, don't just add HP and Epic Ward), and maybe EH if there is too big a gap (and I believe there is).

I like the idea of Champions, I like the idea of adding randomness to the game, BUT, I have played the game and all the quests for a long time now, I might not feel the same way if I was new. Also, as the video says, the implementation of the Champions should be challenging, not punishing, especially to one specific playstyle over all others.

B

[Braegan]

Here you go. Me in Elite Butchers staring down a Champ Shaman while he casts under 40 hp lighting bolts.



Others were in group as I needed an opener and one stepped in just to help heal me as I stood and took attacks.

If there is really some 800+ damage going on, lets identify and bug report it, etc. But lets not all jump on the bandwagon because one person says its true it must be. I did my testing, you do yours.

[Tholgrin_Stoneforge]

I'm all for the idea of Monster Champions. The very concept makes things new, and exciting, and kills the drudgery of playing the same quests over and over.

However, as it is, this needs to be toned down SEVERELY. Having at times up to NINE Champions in the same mob is just plain ridiculous. There is no reason why the spawn rate should be this high. At most, one per mob (two on elite) is acceptable. The current spawn rate is psychotically high and makes soloing $&@^ near impossible if you get an unlucky "roll." Even in groups, well-equipped groups, at that, over-level, running the new Fashion Show content - we had eight crowns and our 24+ group wiped from sheer DoTs and having the crowns bypass EVERYTHING on our defense list.

I cannot believe that this passed from the test server at its current incarnation.

Sure, there are the super-build uber-players that can solo Epic Elite raids who say that those who are complaining are soft and wusses and what-have-you. But frankly, the super-elite players are the margin. They are the 1%. The rest of the player base is now estranged, and if they're anything like me, disgusted and willing to quit unless this is dropped down. I'm all for the idea of "spice," but in its current iteration, this "spice" is the equivalent of dumping two cups of red pepper flakes on a pizza. Quests we were able to solo before with reliability are now total party kills with a well-equipped group. This needs to be turned down, now, and fast.

Or make it an option, for the uber-elitists. Allow them to turn it on as it is for their playing, and let the rest of the community continue as it were. I'd rather that, than continue trying to play in the current form and be shredded in Tangleroot at level because seven crowns happened to spawn in the same mob.

Brilliant idea - horrible execution.

Sincerely,

Tholgrin

[BoBoDaClown]

I'm enjoying the changes.

I'm sure there should be some minor tweaking.

My big comment would be that the vast majority of orange named seemed to be champions, which is fine, but seems a bit odd - may as well make them all with what I experienced as the current ratio. Or reduce the number, so they become bit more of an occasion.

[Braegan]

I'm enjoying the changes.

I'm sure there should be some minor tweaking.

My big comment would be that the vast majority of orange named seemed to be champions, which is fine, but seems a bit odd - may as well make them all with what I experienced as the current ratio. Or reduce the number, so they become bit more of an occasion.

I have been stating same thing as well.

Spawn rate seems too high, it should be more like that "Oh Carp" moment when you were new and opened a door in a harbor quest and out came a raging Ogre.

Make them tough, but a bit more rare.

[btolson]

A quick idea:

Replace the adrenaline-like bonus damage champ effect with a PRR-bypass effect. PRR-focused builds should end up taking about the same amount of damage whether the champ has adrenaline-like or PRR-bypass, but dodge builds run a heavy risk of being one-shotted by adrenaline-like which isn't fun.

You can additionally add a separate dodge-bypass effect, or roll PRR-bypass & dodge-bypass into a single effect, to help keep an even field between PRR builds and dodge builds so as to not make one clearly superior to the other in U24+ content.

[Qezuzu]

Increasing damage and health is the literal definition of artificial difficulty, as is putting players in situations where their actions can't determine the outcome (tee hee hee one of the three champions that spawned in this encounter was able to strike you, now you're dead.) But it'll be better if you tweak it to the point where nearly any encounter with champions can be handled by smart playing (and I'm not talking about borderline infallible stuff like Bard fascinate or bluff pulling.)

The idea might have been more well received if you had also gotten rid of Bravery Bonus (and increased the first-time bonus to compensate.) As it is now, assuming most people don't perceive trash chests to be a good reward (they're not,) we're getting less reward for more challenge, cause Bravery Bonus has been the norm for a long time (and is honestly the only way I can stomach a heroic TR) but now maintaining it will be very frustrating to maintain, especially for people who don't run dedicated TR groups.

The damage buff, I've said before, needs to **** off or get nerfed. It shouldn't be every champ, it should only be some, and it shouldn't allow trash mobs to one-shot non-heavy-armor-paladin-toons or have heavy-armor-paladins get killed because they encountered, horror of horrors, two trash mob champs at one time.

Honestly, considering how hit or miss this change could be, I would just stick champions in a check-box. There, people who want challenge are happy and people who want to have the benefits of elite completions (favor, the loot that only drops on elite e.g. gianthold, streak) are happy. People have been asking for additional difficultly levels for awhile, here's your chance... Elite+. Just add some reward system that's not trash loot. (to people who say "we already have a check box, it's called playing normal and casual;" kindly shut up. Normal is brain-dead easy, a good way to drive away players is have one difficulty be completable by monkeys, and then the next difficulty higher feature enemies that deal uncontrollable spike damage.)

Champs should not be present in low level quests.\

Lastly, you've again swung the favor to caster and archers, and away from melees; majority of the buffs I've seen do nothing to hinder spell and ranged-based damage, but make getting in melee range very dangerous. It's ESPECIALLY a nerf to the melees you haven't buffed yet. If I can ask a question, is the enhancement pass stopping with barbs?