Monster Champion Feedback

[Catteras]

I spent years getting my toon to the level of power she is at. She has 2 TRs and 15 ERs. Epic hard was my difficulty level of choice. Overnight, I am getting ganked in EH quests. When running solo I have no possibility of recovery (I won't buy cakes). I had just started doing Epic Elites with a friend and was quite enjoying them. But that is off the table now.

This is how it should have been done: Champions should only have appeared either as an option, or as a new level of difficulty. Champions should have been worth extra xp and renown. A set and generous amount. Killing 30 champions in a quest should be 30,000 extra xp and 2000 guild reknown. XP and guild renown are the only true incentives left in this game and people would have stepped up.

Instead, you have taken away people's perceived level of ability, without any increase in reward (I stop looting chests when my inventory is full as it is). I think you have made a huge mistake. I can't emphasize that enough. You are going to lose accounts. It may be temporarily satisfying to say "ha ha, look how upset everyone is", but this is going to affect your job status down the road, and that won't be quite as satisfying.

You have different audiences to cater to. Some are very vocal on the forums. But there are many many quiet ones who are not. Sure everyone pays the bills, but when a sizeable measure of everyone gets frustrated and leaves it's going to hurt. Be very very careful how you handle this.

I'll second this. Lots of the forumites may say they like Champeons, but there are probably a lot of "ordinary" players out there (I'm one of them) who may not enjoy the crazy ramp in difficulty. And these folks generally tend not to be as vocal on the forums.

I was just in a three-man group and we got torn apart in EH VON 3. It was embarrassing. The other two guys were dying left and right, and only my 900 hps, regenerating lay on hands, displacement clickies, and crazy paladin sword and board PRR and MRR helped keep me going as long as I did. But it became obvious before we got 1/4 in that we would never be able to complete.

[Kulothar]

You were getting champions on Normal?? That directly contradicts Release Notes. Just to be sure, I ran Depths of Despair again, this time on Normal. No champions, and Sslysk had only 69 hp. BTW, I got the same odd message with The Eater again:

You are correct.. I went back and checked my logs a the rant I went on was exaggerated. The first set were 228 and 245 and second set were 200+ mobs. I thought I went back in normal but was pretty mad at the time so could have not reset. I tried to correct the post but it would not let me. Still a lv 1 snowy side player should not be fighting 4 - 6 mobs with 2 - 4 of them having 400%+ of his HP.

[FestusHood]

If they have the damage buff ("I hit harder"), make them 50% bigger in size. As long as you see a huge mob you know they hit hard (or cast hard, whatever)

They don't need any special marker for the i hit harder buff. I examined at least 30 champions last night and 100% of them had that buff. Just assume it.

[dunklezhan]

Hmm. An unintended side effect of them is this: I am less inclined to renew my sub again. I've been premium again for a few weeks and it occurs to me that a large part of that was the 'open on elite' perk for me. Now... I have doubts I can complete even heroic elite solo with my majority 1st life, but significant 2nd lifer stable of characters (one 3rd lifer), meaning the chances are I will want a group to run elite. At that point, the chances are high that one of them CAN open on elite and the fact that I can't won't matter. So that particular VIP perk is now redundant for me and others like me.

That's not a complaint. I want elite to be hard enough to practically force grouping please. Its just an observation of a potential side effect if more casual type folks like me are more honest with themselves about what they're really capable of in terms of running elite. I will no doubt be buying points to flesh out my account since last time my sub lapsed, so I'll continue to spend, but it won't be the regular, predictable sub. I doubt there are many that fit my particular profile though. On the other hand, maybe I'll finally be driven to get my favorite characters up to 3rd life so I've at least got the option.

[TiberiusofTyr]

Elite Collaborator

23 enemies
7 champions

[HatsuharuZ]

When running EH "Breaking The Ranks" I found the M.C. (Monster Champion) versions of non-named monsters to be dangerous, but not overpoweringly so. However, I quickly learned to make killing them a priority, since they hit fairly hard.


As for a cap on the on the number of MCs that can spawn, I'd say that there are certain situations where a cap is a VERY good idea. Some examples:

1) "Friends In Low Places" boss fight, in which there are enough trash mobs spawning to cause red alert. They are dangerous due to sheer numbers.

2) "Tear of Dhakaan", "Bloody Crypt", "An Offering of Blood" and "Acute Delirium" all have spots where mobs spawn infinitely. Not having a cap on champions has the potential to greatly increase the difficulty of these quests! Especially A.D.

3) Korthos should not have champions, I argue, since it is a "starter" area where new players learn how to play. At least, let there be no more than 1 champion per quest in this area.

4) Ooze enemies should not be eligible to be champions. They're not even intelligent, and their unique attributes make them difficult foes already, at least in groups.

[Kulothar]

Elite Collaborator23 enemies7 champions

4rd try. down to only 5 Champions. 1 first wave, 1 second wave, 2 third wave and NONE until the champion end red named boss (238hp). Lots of running and pots but finally got him. The named Sahaguan at the end was a Champion but I had already completed by then and just finished out.

[brian14]

3) Korthos should not have champions, I argue, since it is a "starter" area where new players learn how to play. At least, let there be no more than 1 champion per quest in this area.

^^^THIS!!! ABSOLUTELY!!!

No better way to turn off a new player.

As for old player... With some misgivings I tried elite Freshen the Air on my level 6, sixth-life main. To my surprise, I never saw more than one Champion at a time, and all of them were common troglodytes (and in one case a dog). I wore Fearsome armor, which reliably sent them running. Not a single trog caster wore a crown, and neither did the matriarch. As a result, the quest was only slightly harder than pre-update. But a few caster Champions would have made it impossible.

Ironically, red-named matriarch had 230-some hp, while champion "commoner" trogs had over 300.

[FestusHood]

I cannot even imagine why players want to die in a quest - if i die, i failed, i need to redo this and i will not; not just because thats frustrating - because there is nothing i can do about the deaths - they will happen. And no - i will never buy a spirit cake - i have all packs, races, inventory - but that ? never !!!

It's possible that they are too young to have played the classic video games. They may be from the generation of infinite continues and save points and never actually seen the words "game over" on a screen.

[Connman]

So I just went through the first 10 pages or so and took a quick count.

about 54 for champions

about 36 against champions.

My count is most likely inaccurate. I did notice a trend though. most posters were from the join dates of 2009/2010 about 45, and most of those were for.

I am for and I joined in that time, am I for because the game had a very nice balance then and this brings back good memories? I don't know.

I also noticed that a good amount of the players from the 2013 to 2014 era are against. Is this because they never saw the game at its height, again I don't know.

These are just some things i noticed when I pseudo tallied up the yay's and nay's. there were tons of ones I wasn't sure which side they were on, and most people seemed to be in the middle.

As far as the people with join dates of 2006-2007 they seemed pretty evenly split.

[Uska]

You are correct.. I went back and checked my logs a the rant I went on was exaggerated. The first set were 228 and 245 and second set were 200+ mobs. I thought I went back in normal but was pretty mad at the time so could have not reset. I tried to correct the post but it would not let me. Still a lv 1 snowy side player should not be fighting 4 - 6 mobs with 2 - 4 of them having 400%+ of his HP.

If you want to edit a post right click on edit and open in new window and you will be able to edit your posts

[Qhualor]

When running EH "Breaking The Ranks" I found the M.C. (Monster Champion) versions of non-named monsters to be dangerous, but not overpoweringly so. However, I quickly learned to make killing them a priority, since they hit fairly hard.


As for a cap on the on the number of MCs that can spawn, I'd say that there are certain situations where a cap is a VERY good idea. Some examples:

1) "Friends In Low Places" boss fight, in which there are enough trash mobs spawning to cause red alert. They are dangerous due to sheer numbers.

2) "Tear of Dhakaan", "Bloody Crypt", "An Offering of Blood" and "Acute Delirium" all have spots where mobs spawn infinitely. Not having a cap on champions has the potential to greatly increase the difficulty of these quests! Especially A.D.

3) Korthos should not have champions, I argue, since it is a "starter" area where new players learn how to play. At least, let there be no more than 1 champion per quest in this area.

4) Ooze enemies should not be eligible to be champions. They're not even intelligent, and their unique attributes make them difficult foes already, at least in groups.

1. quests with waves of mobs I think shouldn't have more than 1 Champion per mob. I would be ok with 2-3 at most on elite. ran at level elite Weapons Shipment earlier and there were typically ~6 Champions at all times.

2. see #1

3. ive been thinking about this one. I think its fine with no Champions on Sunny side, but start including them with a 5% chance on Snowy side. have to slowly get them used to it.

4. that actually makes sense. anything not intelligent shouldn't be a Champion.

[bigdmag]

I like it for the most part. Throws a nice curve ball in there to keep you on your toes.

Few things I would change.

1. I've noticed that there is the possibility of spawning "too many" of them to handle. I think there were 3 or 4 at one point and they overwhelmed me. Its basically like having a major Boss fight all of a sudden.

2. The being overwhelmed came mostly from the fact that they bypass every defensive measure Ive taken and they can 1 shot you easily. So unless your tank build of some kind, ranged with massive DPS ( so you can stay away) or just get lucky and not hit by them, then your in trouble on EE or even EH. Again its like a sudden major boss fight, with no warning.

3. Too many spawning in general. I dont want what used to be a 15 minute quest turning into a 30 minute quest after I just popped a 50% xp pot that I bought for 500 TP. Unless you implement below.

4. If they are going to spawn like mad and increase the time to finish quests, make it worth our wild.
- xtra xp for each 1 killed based on the level of the quest and the difficulty

- Then maybe a multiplier added after a certain number killed ( and that multiplier can increase as well depending
on the number killed...x1.5 @ 7 killed, x 2 @ 10 killed, x 2.5 at 14 killed and so on) It will make up for the
death penalties and extra time.


- I think most people aren't worried about chests, but we are annoyed by extra work with no xp for it.

- Bottom line, make it worth it. Right now they are just an annoyance. If they become valuable ( more xp)
then people will most likely be OK with it.

5. Tone down their damage. People were getting critted for 900 to 1000 with 200% fort? Unless thats an end boss that seems a bit much to me.


6. Give them spell absorption or something as opposed to just a blanket immunity to everything we can do but direct physical damage. All of a sudden our DC casters are just there to observe? If they had say 5 or 10 absorptions and some stellar saves then we could beat on them for a bit and the DC casters can widdle away at there defenses and at least do something to them at some point. If not, then why not just make them a Red Named boss?

Overall I like the idea, but I think it needs an adjustment of some kind. If it stays like this a lot of people will be really annoyed by it. A lot of extra work for nothing doesn't translate well to people who spend their hard earned money on the game.

[maddong]

I think EH wheloon/stormhorns is great fun now.

I'm for champions but maybe the spawn rate should be decreased very slightly.
People posting about the new content doing 6k shots to players also seems a bit much.

I would also like the EH/EE first time 40/80% xp bonus to be made permanent so there is an incentive to run on those difficulties (the chests are not an incentive).

[gaffneyks]

Added Champions is the worst thing I have seen to the game since the shard exchange.

I most likely will not renew my VIP sub. The game is seeming more and more to become a grind, this just added to it. Grind Grind Grind.

I wish the game could be what it was when i started. But the Devs seem to think a challenge is just pumping up the hit points or massive spawns (aka massive lag).

The game is just not fun anymore. Sucks, but it is what it is.

Bad idea, Please stop listening to the vocal minority.

[Qhualor]

I really don't think the Dev's expected the champions to be doing THIS much dmg especially in Heroic levels. Let them tone it down.

Why do people always assume that when an update comes out it was ALL meant to happen? It wasn't like this on Lammania so not sure what happened.

I am betting that they will address withijn a few days and they will cut the amount of champ spawns in half and will cut the damage output a lot.

If not within a few days still soon.

I don't know what happened either as I never experienced anything like some are saying here on Lama. I wont dismiss that its possible that Champions are probably a little wonky when updating over to Live. I mean, we have epic mobs in heroic Orchard still but die like heroic mobs. ive run many quests from 15-19 and still not seeing these high damage numbers or insanely high mob hp numbers. every chance I get to hard target a Champion in my group before its killed too quickly I check their hp if I have it unlocked and check their buffs. im seeing mobs with hp maybe a couple K higher than trash mobs and the damage they deal isn't too hard. I ran elite Weapons Shipment with a group and I was attacked by a couple Champions continuously at once with the waves and got dangerously low on health but never died. caster in the group was dancing them with trash mobs and using some kind of AOE acid practically insta killing them. orange names in quests don't feel any different to me either.

I feel like the guy that says there is no lag in DDO.

[HAL]

maybe i failed with the translation.
what i meant was;
when difficulty goes up you can build better, gear better, play better.
i can not gear/build (a melee) against 5600 slashing damage or 2k force damage whille having near 200prr, how do i play around that?
EE miror room, waves of spawns in a small room, party changed into a rez fest
When i was in EE i had the feeling i was playing rusian roulete with every champion that spawned, there was a 1 in 6 chance it targeted me with a high chance of 1 shotting me.
the the roulette refrence was to underline the "no way to get out of failure" chance.
So yes, a pointless change


To the dev's
Heroic&epic:
remove it or allow for an opt out, you're hurting part of your own income

I understand why you want to crib of diablo and path of exile, a large chunk of your playerbase went those games (around U19-ish) but atleast do it right:
better visual representation, as a melee i don't have the luxery of selecting a mob and investegating it for buffs
tone down the damage, i might have had a 2600hp tank, 2k damage is insane, let allone the 5k slashing gargoyle or the 4k damage beholder.

for years i have pugged heroic content in order to meet new people, many players might remember the advice and gear given to them, this wil stop, social element doesn't weigh up against the levelscaling, slower quest completions and 10% exp penalty.
from what i heard, you also screwed over permadeath.......


Implement an opt out check-box!

Are we getting through here?

Sorry, I should have added a "yes" in front of the statement you quoted - I was agreeing with you

[BD_]

So I just went through the first 10 pages or so and took a quick count.

about 54 for champions

about 36 against champions.

My count is most likely inaccurate. I did notice a trend though. most posters were from the join dates of 2009/2010 about 45, and most of those were for.

I am for and I joined in that time, am I for because the game had a very nice balance then and this brings back good memories? I don't know.

I also noticed that a good amount of the players from the 2013 to 2014 era are against. Is this because they never saw the game at its height, again I don't know.

These are just some things i noticed when I pseudo tallied up the yay's and nay's. there were tons of ones I wasn't sure which side they were on, and most people seemed to be in the middle.

As far as the people with join dates of 2006-2007 they seemed pretty evenly split.

I think you'll find that the percentage that posted they think champions are great the way they are and need no adjustments to be much much less... For example several people have said something along the lines of, "I like champions... but I think they need to be toned down a bit..." did you just count them as for champions? I said, "I think the champion system/idea has potential but was very poorly implemented." so did you count me as against champions? or for champions?...


Your by join date sort of sounds like one of those "newer players are second class players", or "if you can't remember when we had to walk uphill both ways to play..." arguments...

[Darkdrium]

Added Champions is the worst thing I have seen to the game since the shard exchange.

I most likely will not renew my VIP sub. The game is seeming more and more to become a grind, this just added to it. Grind Grind Grind.

I wish the game could be what it was when i started. But the Devs seem to think a challenge is just pumping up the hit points or massive spawns (aka massive lag).

The game is just not fun anymore. Sucks, but it is what it is.

Bad idea, Please stop listening to the vocal minority.

^This. Champs don't make the game more challenging, just more grindy. Ran a bunch of EE's including GH chain, only thing this added was time to completion and a few stupid deaths. You want champs in the game for challenge then add a button beside EE that enables them and let their chests drop the named items from the quest they're in instead of forcing this **** on every player because a bunch of exploiters cried about how easy content is. Devs want to challenge players? Then stop inflating gear and power with every update and start reworking current content to be a challenge at the current state of power... oh wait, they keep trying this and failing, NM.
Turbine has lost at least one paying customer until this "feature" has been removed or GREATLY reworked. Just ask Blizzard when the last time I gave them money was XD.

[redoubt]

Bloody Crypt on elite. Level 7-8 players (5 of us).

280 kills, 40 champions, 6 oranges and 3 chests. (first chests my group has seen.)

Side notes:
Saw a mob with 3 damage buffs on it. Slash, I hit harder and something else I could not read before the rest of the group killed it, but the same icon.
Ran elite chrono with the same 5 people. Noone else joined, guess everyone is testing champions.