Monster Champion Feedback

[Vargouille]

My one point of disagreement is in 100% fort bypass and giving too many mobs the ability to counter concealment (I don't care if they counter invis run, just don't make all counter stealth, displace and blur. Some yes. Partial bypass yes. Not all with all.)

Some Champions cannot bypass Displacement or Blur. Champions do not inherently bypass stealth.

We still may work with the numbers for what percentage of champions get buffs like True Seeing or See Invisible, but it's not 100% (and hasn't been). It does vary based on some factors, such as being orange named.

[Oxarhamar]

Some Champions cannot bypass Displacement or Blur. Champions do not inherently bypass stealth.

We still may work with the numbers for what percentage of champions get buffs like True Seeing or See Invisible, but it's not 100% (and hasn't been). It does vary based on some factors, such as being orange named.

How about working on Champion rewards?

As currently implemented.

Quests heavy with Orange/Red named like Devils Assualt 22 EH 23EE can drop a load of chests.

Vs.

Much higher level quests like Stormhorns, ENecro which have fewer Ornge/Red named give little to no reward.

This is unbalanced.

Besides trash chests are still trash give us something interesting. XP/Renown auto grant per Champ killed or something unique to Champs!

[Robai]

Some Champions cannot bypass Displacement or Blur. Champions do not inherently bypass stealth.

We still may work with the numbers for what percentage of champions get buffs like True Seeing or See Invisible, but it's not 100% (and hasn't been). It does vary based on some factors, such as being orange named.

True seeing/Fortification bypass/Additional damage - all these buffs almost not affecting players that can kill mobs without getting hits.
I'd like to see some champion buffs that could affect these players.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

The reason I went all out on the buffs is because I'm arguing that those champions should be rare and different. Like 1 champion with fort bypass in a quest, 1 with increased awareness, 1 with immunity to slashing, etc. What you say is true if many monsters have the bypass ability. No monsters having this ability means that you can indeed achieve no-fail fort for all the monsters of the dungeon. The point of the champions is to strike you where you expect less. You are just face-rolling all the monsters in Lords of Dust for example and nearing the end of the quest, a hound bypasses your fort and strikes you for a critical hit that kills you. You were soloing and didn't pay attention. Too bad, better luck next time. But if the monster warns you that it can bypass your fortification you can equip your dodge ring, activate uncanny dodge or a boost (damage, haste, whatever), equip your ranged weapon and avoid contact with that particular monster.

A well geared toon should not be without challenge. Sure, it should mitigate the threat most monsters pose, but there should be a case that a well geared toon for defence will fail where a well geared toon for attack will succeed and vice versa. This is what balance and roles are for. A not well geared and not prepared toon (like the zombeh party from some posts above - no raise scrolls?!) should fail whatever the occasion.

I feel they (devs) need to make them harder than the first iteration, but spawn rate about what it is now.

I'd like to add the feature implemented out in Epic Gianthold explorer, where undead skeleton giants can travel the whole map without rubberbanding.

AND, for those that say this type of new challenge is not wanted, I'd like to hear the root of why you think that way.

*********Here's my semi-sarcastic reasons for why not and my answers to each...I'd rather hear your real reason with answers*****************
1) It ruin's my solo experience if one-shot'd == slow yourself down to include tactics. Or pop a raising hireling and park him at the entrance.
2) I'm not getting through the quest as fast as before == improve your character...improve your skills/knowledge...start looking for a static group as grouping will typically get through the content quicker.
3) It ruins the original content (intention and difficulty) == that happened long ago when they incrementally lessened the difficulty of the game these past ~5 years.
4) Its not fun == you need to define the $h!# out of that statement; just because :P
5) What I learned this last year on how to play this game is no longer allowing me to complete a quest == take a minute to ask a vet or 10 for possible solutions.
6) Hard and above with these new Champions is now too hard for me and my character == run the quest on normal...or find a group and start picking their brains...improve your character...improve your skills/knowledge.
7) I don't have time to improve my character...improve my skills/knowledge. I didn't need these prior to champions == I don't know what to say to this.
8) I now have to adjust my character to over-focus on a (skill/stat/feat) and that changes the character I love to something less == not sure what to say to this.
9) The majority of current players are struggling with Champions, therefore the DDO employees need to focus on us == continue making this game simpler and easier will continue the trend for not playing together will continue with the demise of this games lifespan. Also, where the h3!l are you getting your numbers?
10) ................................did I miss any argument against Champions??

[Sgt_Hart]

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.

Want that handy, and fresh in memory.

Original Post: Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular.

Ok, I've given it up until now to feed back it. I have not run Terminal Delerium, so predictably no feedback will be skewed by it.

They are, Presently, too easy. They were, previously, at times too hard. I have a notion, actually a couple..

1. Decrease Miniboss champions damage globally and convert them all into champions, thus putting the damage back on par with what it was, and providing them with randomized quirks.
   
   • Really, this is to appease the majority.
   • We already know miniboss's are suppose to be dangerous, and we know where they are usually.
   • This does retain the taste of the predictable dungeon, right up until the parts that are suppose to be not-mundane.
2. Remove Dungeon Alert's Monster-buff, and instead up the Instance's chance to spawn champions by a percentage per DA level.
   
   • This is also a concession to the "Champs are too hard" folks.
   • I would suggest a 1% hard and 5% elite base spawn chance.
   • I'd look at DA increasing spawn chance by 10/30/60/90.
   • I would also cap hard at a max 50% increase.
3. Revise how the champions OnHit: Extra damage is math'd.
   
   • This is for all you "Games too easy" folks.
   • Make the Dice calculations for damage dealt, include as an extra Die.. the number of past lives the target has.
   • Soft cap that addition to go no higher than 1.5 base dice it would deal.

As noted elsewhere, Champion buffs are generally level agnostic, or scale with the quest level, or scale with the monster's base statistics. If a level 20 Champion Buff is giving something like 20d4 damage than the level 5 version would be giving 5d4 damage. These are still up for review and changes, of course.

That.. Let's try that as (20 + (upto)30 Past lives)d4 Or (5 +[1-7, depending on past lives] )d4. What's more, since it would be calculated off the Target taking the damage, That third life fighter, in the EE, is treated gentler than the epic-uber-completionist.

While not exactly "fair".. It's targeted difficulty, at the folks who haven't been finding difficulty.

[Keladon]

True seeing/Fortification bypass/Additional damage - all these buffs almost not affecting players that can kill mobs without getting hits.
I'd like to see some champion buffs that could affect these players.

Like slashing immunity! Right now melee can just keep swinging away while spellcasters have limited sp!

I don't want to see immunities on champions, it will make them an annoyance or people will just run past them.
It's supposed to be a challenging feature, not punishing or annoying.

And for all those who are asking for more rewards: You wanted more challenge, you got it.
Or does there have to be an increase in rewards for every increase in difficulty?

The game was harder a few years ago according to many, the rewards weren't bigger, so why should they be now?

[Qhualor]

How about working on Champion rewards?

As currently implemented.

Quests heavy with Orange/Red named like Devils Assualt 22 EH 23EE can drop a load of chests.

Vs.

Much higher level quests like Stormhorns, ENecro which have fewer Ornge/Red named give little to no reward.

This is unbalanced.

Besides trash chests are still trash give us something interesting. XP/Renown auto grant per Champ killed or something unique to Champs!

I don't see why we should be given a reward for killing mobs just a little tougher than trash mobs. make them tougher like pre-nerf and than lets discuss rewards.

[Artrish]

I made two posts in this thread at some point, my initial reaction to champions was to rage quit. Just logged in to check em out with the "nerfs" , same reaction from me though i know i enjoy the game so i am making a workaround. Am working a way to run normal for my tr's and avoid them all together, run higher level content earlier then normal and take in a rotation of first time bonus. I expect my usual tr a week to drop back to somewhere to a tr a month or if the normal repeats feel to tiring then a tr every second to third month. Once back in to the swing, if it doesn't feel too annoying to jump in to an elite group running content then i will jump in when they are up on the lfg. I doubt i will host elites, too annoying for me with all the stress that goes along with being a host, would just rage quit again, haha.

So, am back and gearing up to get in to full swing normal difficulty setting only tr's. Have fun out there in the champions domain, i hope to avoid them altogether though am glad it is a positive addition to many that have been seeking a challenge. Developers, just please be mindfull about what those of us avoiding champions all together will be facing in all this because if the progress rates end up needing 4-5 repeats on every quest to advance a level, it is just going to get insanely boring to progress a character to run normal difficulty content only. And i don't plan to delete my multi tr's just to gain fast levels and i already run over 20 full character slots so please just know that there are players on the server playing multi trs on normal mode only.

Have a great weekend everyone, may your quests be fun and the loot bring great fortunes to all.

[HatsuharuZ]

After running some quests recently, mainly low level ones like Sharn, Necro1 and Delera's, I feel that Champions are fine as they are. I have noticed a slight increase in deaths, but those mainly occur when the player gets more agro than he or she can manage.

Champions ARE dangerous. It is not guaranteed that one will die when facing one, but they are a threat even if they aren't spellcasters.

Not so sure if a "champion token" (i.e. reward system) is necessary. As long as it's not another crafting system, and somehow complements existing systems, that would be fine with me.

[Keladon]

I made two posts in this thread at some point, my initial reaction to champions was to rage quit. Just logged in to check em out with the "nerfs" , same reaction from me though i know i enjoy the game so i am making a workaround. Am working a way to run normal for my tr's and avoid them all together, run higher level content earlier then normal and take in a rotation of first time bonus. I expect my usual tr a week to drop back to somewhere to a tr a month or if the normal repeats feel to tiring then a tr every second to third month. Once back in to the swing, if it doesn't feel too annoying to jump in to an elite group running content then i will jump in when they are up on the lfg. I doubt i will host elites, too annoying for me with all the stress that goes along with being a host, would just rage quit again, haha.

So, am back and gearing up to get in to full swing normal difficulty setting only tr's. Have fun out there in the champions domain, i hope to avoid them altogether though am glad it is a positive addition to many that have been seeking a challenge. Developers, just please be mindfull about what those of us avoiding champions all together will be facing in all this because if the progress rates end up needing 4-5 repeats on every quest to advance a level, it is just going to get insanely boring to progress a character to run normal difficulty content only. And i don't plan to delete my multi tr's just to gain fast levels and i already run over 20 full character slots so please just know that there are players on the server playing multi trs on normal mode only.

Have a great weekend everyone, may your quests be fun and the loot bring great fortunes to all.

Come on, at least give this man his "Hard" difficulty back!

I'm facing the same problem, I hate champions, but I also hate repetition, so what am I supposed to do?
Running the same quest over & over on normal will make me quit this game.
Running into unbalanced champions who only add frustration will also make me quit this game.

Can't you just remove champions from hard? Those saying the game is too easy or even STILL too easy, aren't talking about hard, they're talking about elite.

[dunklezhan]

Some Champions cannot bypass Displacement or Blur. Champions do not inherently bypass stealth.

We still may work with the numbers for what percentage of champions get buffs like True Seeing or See Invisible, but it's not 100% (and hasn't been). It does vary based on some factors, such as being orange named.

It would be good if you could fix stealth so that 'sound pulling' works again, i.e. i shoot at the floor or wall near a mob and that mob and maybe one or two others peel off to investigate, as opposed to me shooting the mob and all his mates coming with. This would allow additional tactical options for dealing with champions especially in multi-champion spawn situations, or situations where there are a lot of other mobs.

Currently no mobs at all respond to this tactic which was always a superb example of the DDO combat system working as intended - it was a feature I have used to showcase this game to folk. I bug reported this via in game tool some time ago.

[Angelic-council]

I don't see why we should be given a reward for killing mobs just a little tougher than trash mobs. make them tougher like pre-nerf and than lets discuss rewards.

Qhualor got the point. I very much agree with him. But people keep saying it's too hard and so on... I just hope that turbine make the right decision and realize that champions are not for everybody. So.. They don't have to nerf them too much. But keep them balanced.

[Sehenry03]

A note to Dev's...

I ran Sacred Helm with a friend yesterday on my druid Ziffin. At the end fight there were 2 Hobgoblin Marksmen. 1 was a champ which had 1350 hp's and the other was normal and had 145 hp's. While not 10x it is aweful close...

[redoubt]

A beholder can already bypass your deathward. But you're talking about deathblock. I guess a disjunction of your items bypasses your deathblock (at least it SHOULD work that way heh :P).

If you're talking about a deathblock bypass without a disjunction that you can avoid then there's the situation of a caster that you haven't yet seen or been able to attack before he attacks you. In the complete fort bypass example before I gave a way out of the situation. A way to mitigate the threat with smart playing and there always needs to be one. I can't think of any way to save yourself from a caster that as soon as he sees you will kill you (that means before you are able to kill him, or even reach him). If you can think of a way to save yourself from that situation (and it doesn't require a super rogue with assasinate - because that's pretty rare) then why not?

As I said before, that's why that dude with 30 dodge, displacement, ghostly is playing in your party. Because there are a couple of champions in there that will easily bypass his 30 dodge and displacement. He will need you to tank those champions and you will need him to tank those drones.

If a caster casts disjunction on me that removes my deathblock, I get to see the "tell" I know that I'm now suddenly vulnerable to new things. Time to put on the silver flame trinket to make up for my other deathblock item just failing. Or if I only have one deathblock, time to rethink my strategy.

Its similar to getting hit with negative levels. I expect the next thing to be some sort of instakill or stun. I hit the silver flame trinket (and a restore scroll if I can.)

In the case of spells which debuff me, or even an attack that debuffs me (sunder etc), I get a tell and I usually got a chance to save against it. I can also back out and reset my buffs, gear, strategy or a combination of all of those.

An inherent bypass of an entire type of defense does not allow for any of that. Its a random roll that is just bad luck and there is no way to anticipate it. I think that is where I get stuck on the complete bypass concept.

For a way to bypass dodge, I'd rather it by with a mez of some sort than an entire bypass. And true seeing just needs to be less common. If the caster is still alive a few swings into the fight starts casting TS on all the melee instead of casting at my party, then sure, the whole darn group gets true seeing. That's my bad for letting the caster live that long.

I'm not sold yet, but I'm still thinking about it.

[redoubt]

Some Champions cannot bypass Displacement or Blur. Champions do not inherently bypass stealth.

We still may work with the numbers for what percentage of champions get buffs like True Seeing or See Invisible, but it's not 100% (and hasn't been). It does vary based on some factors, such as being orange named.

I think outlying mobs, like guards and sentries having see invis is a great idea. That is why they are there!

My experience with champions so far is that well of half of them have true seeing. Is this your intent? That seems like a lot of mobs who get to bypass a main defense of no/light armor characters.

[redoubt]

Let's try that as (20 + (upto)30 Past lives)d4 Or (5 +[1-7, depending on past lives] )d4. What's more, since it would be calculated off the Target taking the damage, That third life fighter, in the EE, is treated gentler than the epic-uber-completionist.

While not exactly "fair".. It's targeted difficulty, at the folks who haven't been finding difficulty.

I do not want to see damage scaled based on past lives please. I'm not doing past lives to get PRR to make my rogue more survivable just to have the damage increased on me to negate the past lives. Thank you.

[Faltout]

If a caster casts disjunction on me that removes my deathblock, I get to see the "tell" I know that I'm now suddenly vulnerable to new things. Time to put on the silver flame trinket to make up for my other
deathblock item just failing. Or if I only have one deathblock, time to rethink my strategy.

Its similar to getting hit with negative levels. I expect the next thing to be some sort of instakill or stun. I hit the silver flame trinket (and a restore scroll if I can.)

In the case of spells which debuff me, or even an attack that debuffs me (sunder etc), I get a tell and I usually got a chance to save against it. I can also back out and reset my buffs, gear, strategy or a combination of all of those.

An inherent bypass of an entire type of defense does not allow for any of that. Its a random roll that is just bad luck and there is no way to anticipate it. I think that is where I get stuck on the complete bypass concept.

Yes, that's why I also mentioned that buffs need to be more important and that they need a more visible way of showing (suggested using the monster's voice - and no, icons above their heads are not going to work). So that you can see that monster coming at you and avoid it.

For a way to bypass dodge, I'd rather it by with a mez of some sort than an entire bypass. And true seeing just needs to be less common. If the caster is still alive a few swings into the fight starts casting TS on all the melee instead of casting at my party, then sure, the whole darn group gets true seeing. That's my bad for letting the caster live that long.

I'm not sold yet, but I'm still thinking about it.

I'm guessing that the reason for this much true seeing (and by Varguille's word more on minibosses), is that a lot of players are used to invis runs. As is, champions have extra hp and always the "I hit more buff". I guess that's the way to make them a minimum threat. Then they sometimes add true seeing to make them a threat to all the playerbase (except sneaky types). Then finally some random buffs for extra flavor. Admittedly, the champion system is not implemented well. As I said before, every player is prepared for more DPS and HP till a certain threshold (about 1000 damage hits).

Btw, buff against ranged types:
- Immune to all damage except type X. The monster also has an aura that makes nearby creatures add the X damage type in their attacks. A melee should be able to come toe to toe with this monster though.
(Or if the devs can determine whether the weapon used is ranged or not, then it's just immune to ranged weapons :P)

[Oxarhamar]

True seeing/Fortification bypass/Additional damage - all these buffs almost not affecting players that can kill mobs without getting hits.
I'd like to see some champion buffs that could affect these players.

Not going to dig up the quote in 100 pages but, range and caster punishing buffs were discussed by the Devs in response to gripes like this.

[Keladon]

Btw, buff against ranged types:
- Immune to all damage except type X. The monster also has an aura that makes nearby creatures add the X damage type in their attacks. A melee should be able to come toe to toe with this monster though.
(Or if the devs can determine whether the weapon used is ranged or not, then it's just immune to ranged weapons :P)

And then you have to kill everything in a room and a champion that's ranged immune spawns on an unreachable ledge..

There's so much that could go wrong when you start giving champions immunity to certain playstyles.
It sounds like a good idea, but in reality it would cause nothing but issues... and frustration.

I know not all combat styles are created equal, but using an already unbalanced & random feature to correct that would not be the best solution.

[Oxarhamar]

I don't see why we should be given a reward for killing mobs just a little tougher than trash mobs. make them tougher like pre-nerf and than lets discuss rewards.

No matter to me with the exception of the "wall of HP" champions pre nerf I did not have a problem with the difficulty at least in Epics. The rest were speed bumps before the nerf and are speed bumps after the nerf.

Maybe in Heroics they could have been scaled a bit as levels increased.


Still nerf/pre nerf Champions does not address the unbalanced rewards system.



Give All Champions equal rewards or rewards chance based on level of quest rather than colored named only will bring more balance.

To be clear the champions present a chance to bring the rewards of running EE back to the front of running EN as the current implementation EN (after BB has been exhausted) is more rewarding than EE thanks to low XP increase and the movement away from Tiered loot.


Outside of +6 tome chance in certain Raids there is little that can be earned for running EE that can not be had more efficiently in EN.