Monster Champion Feedback

[HAL]

No. I dont think thats even in the same ballpark.

So "at no cost" isn't "easy button"? (For the record.)

[Braegan]

Yep, I haven't been able to play table top in years so everything is look back at with rose tinted glasses. Pretty sure some of the devs are still playing PnP so all the warts are still highly visible to them.

That said 3.5 did take a turn for the worse though in a lot of ways. Like fighter went from one of the best classes to one of the worst, their job was to fight, not read books, not heal the sick, not steal things just fight. In a world of magic and monsters they had the best save progression to reflect this, in 3.5 apparently they stopped fighting magic and monster just other fighters. They weren't the best at fighting other fighter types either, summons from you friendly caster were about as strong.

Well I don't want to derail a feedback thread any further than it has already. But yeah I agree with you, mostly. 3.5 had some good ideas, but 1st and 2nd ED were the best IMO. If I ever run a table top group again it would be some weird mesh of the three. But THAC0 would deff be part of it

[Impaqt]

So "at no cost" isn't "easy button"? (For the record.)

Completely different context.

[HAL]

Make a Legends Only button, that only people who have TR'd more than 3 times can enter

Why? If a first life character can hack it why can't they enter?

and have the champions in that setting like they was the day they was released that way the vets, elitist can feel like they are getting a challenge. The xp would be the same as if they had just run elite and the loot would be the same. Just bragging rights only would be their only reward.

[Nimdeadlee]

Oh no They want even more Powerful gear. Watch you will see them say this: "well if it doesn't offer any better XP or LOOT then theres no point in me running it" That's because they aren't looking for a "Challenge"

All I want is the challenge, I'm happy to play with champions and no extra xp, favour or loot.

[dragonofsteel2]

Level 28 wizard
- running displacement
- ghostly
- 121 AC
- 28 dodge
- 66 PRR (39.76% DR)
- 30 MRR (23.08% Reduction)
- All resists over 60
- lotsa past life stuff and good but not perfect gear
- all saves >70 with 84 reflex+epic reflexes
- >200% Fort
- Just over 1000 hp and 3000sp

I ran Carnival chain EE with a party (5-6 each quest). I never saw any damage #s over 200 including the end fight in small problem that had some champion bosses. We had 4 bards in the parties so everything not red was cc'd in the end fight - so it may not have been the best test. Probably not the best test for me. Basically I saw nothing problematic

I ran EE breaking the ranks solo.

The champs in the first 2 waves seemed reasonable and the largest damage numbers I saw from champs were 400ish which before my mitigation was 650ish. Really no problems to speak of with # of champs or damage of champs

Here is the odd thing that may be a bug. In the 3rd wave not a single hill giant was a champ - the entire wave. This was a wave I was concerned about because if I get knocked down and hit by a few champs that bypass fort and displacements - and I am probably gonna die for sure. Whether it was luck or a bug - I never saw a single champ this wave.

The final wave is always the toughest for this character since I can't cc the shadar-kai. The boss hits me for disintegrate for 600ish multiple times even with my 84 no-fail save which means DC is 85+. Shadar Kai bodyguard champs hit me for 600 a few times. This would be 1000 before mitigation which seems reasonable for level and EE since some mitigation would be expected for EE.

As for the comments about not being able to die with the changes - I am not buying it. My caster could definitely die in there with the boss hitting me for 600 with disintigreate and mobs chasing me the entire time - some which can also hit me for 600. I noticed 2 things different than pre-U24. I used more sp in the quest and I was taking more damage.

It pretty sad that have all them past lives and gear and still do not know that disintegrate is a fort save, not reflex. So epic reflex does nothing in stopping 1 from hitting you on disintegrate..

[Connman]

I would like to see a de-buff called "I gimped CON" and have it give them the minimum hit die per level, with some big bonuses.

I think when they calibrate elite they need to dial it all the way to 11, until everyone who said "harder" goes "whoa too far" its too hard now.

I think they should calibrate hard for the its to hard group, however that group wants it done.

Then drop casual completely. Rename normal "No champs"

Make the totally nerfed champion level, you know they wear crowns and that's about it, the new normal.

And make a new Hard level that is somewher in between.

You would still have four settings just better calibrated.

[LupusVai]

Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
To clarify my earlier comment: If you see a Champion monster with clearly 10x as many hitpoints as an identical monster standing next to it in the same instance and party, that's unintended. This is not intended as a discussion of party or difficulty scaling. That can certainly be a discussion but will only the muddy the feedback in this thread, where some players seem to be reporting Champion Buffs giving x10 hitpoints, which shouldn't be happening. (For the purpose of discussing Champions, please don't report that your solo Casual monsters had a lot less hitpoints than the Elite version with a full party.)

Quote Originally Posted by LupusVai View Post
Math is obviously hard for you.

200% more means 3 times the HPs. Which means if a mob normally has 400hps it would have 1200hps. I didn't say x10. The most Ive seen is about 300% which would be x4 hps. Although there have been screen shots posted here of mobs like that. If your monster manual is complete then you would have seen hps of quite a lot of the mobs, because I'm sure my monster manuals are not complete and I have been able to see the hp difference on a lot of mobs.

So you are spreading false information and not the TRUTH. We all know your thoughts on champions because you've posted ad nausem on it and when you're deliberately stating false information to suit your agenda that everyone who can see the hps of the mobs knows is false you loose all credibility.

200% + extra hps is not just a few extra. If a person was 200% taller he'd be nearly as tall as a house. If von 3 epic gave out 200% more exp it would be about 200k (assuming its about 67k normally). Get the idea 200%+ is a lot not a few.

reading dev quotes are not hard.

Once again, now try reading this slowly. I'm not talking about a 900% increase or x10 like the devs are saying is a bug. I've not seen a x10 hp mob in game yet. The devs have made no comment on what is the correct amount to be seen only that x10 is not intentional. I quite clearly am stating that the ones I'm seeing are X3 to x4 hit points. You just cant stand the fact that you are wrong and have been called on it and are linking a dev comment that has no relevance. Your reply may have well as been a devs quote about the changes to shared banks.

x3 or x4 may well be intentional, but as the devs have not said what is the intentional amount. Perhaps they don't have a clear figure to give. The fact remains that X3 to x4 are not a small increase.

[Aletys]

THe only way to answer this sounds harsh, but *** are you talking about, have you not been following along. You must not read so good. thank you for replying with uh -uh we are ubers too.

Perhaps you should re-read what you wrote that I responded to:

Quote Originally Posted by Connman View Post
I have done this exact thing, and yes it was challenging, but I think you are really missing a huge point about the difficulty settings. Toons with no or little tweak do not belong in HH and HE, that is why they have the lower setting so that you can acquire better gear and equipment to survive those difficulty levels. Challenges, as the ones in house Cannith provide high quality uber loot that is VERY appropriate for starting Toons. I use it on a regular basis because I have alt-itis, I regularly make new toons and try them out. The first thing I did was load up my main and run headfirst into a group of champions and died. It was awesome the monsters actually had a chance. The second thing I did was roll new toons to experience different ways to defeat them. I took Iconics and all the CC combat feats you could imagine, jumped straight into a pug and stunned and tripped things while the tr's sliced and diced. any other new player could have gone right into that very same lfm, dropped a trip or two, or whatever they do and had a great time, if they only gave it a chance.

Thanks and have a great day

I never said I was uber, I said I was well geared and experienced, and that most of the posters opposing champions are not newbies with inadequate gear.

The idea that it's folks with starting toons with no TR gear that oppose champions is not borne out by the posts. Many of the pro-champion posters act as if anyone who opposes them must be running weak, under-geared toons, and that's simply not the case. That's the bogus argument. It's also extremely condescending: That if we don't agree with you that champions are wonderful, we must be wimps. Perhaps that is not what you and others meant, but that's what is coming across in post after post.

We simply don't find the champions the least bit interesting and think that they're a complete waste of time and resources. And, it has completely changed the game. It's become a totally random slug fest. That's what we object to. You think it encourages tactics and coordination. We think it does just the opposite.

And, as someone said a few posts ago, with all the champion mobs getting the same buffs, instead of applying buffs that make sense for the particular type of monster, they're for all practical purposes the same mobs with different skins. That's completely boring.

[Keladon]

All I want is the challenge, I'm happy to play with champions and no extra xp, favour or loot.

If only there were more people like you.

But instead I see everyone saying the risk should equal the reward or that the current reward should at least be bigger.

If you want champions for the challenge & only the challenge, an extra difficulty would fix that in my opinion.

Extra Difficulty = Elite + first implementation of champions.. or maybe even higher spawn/harder

[TechknowCat]

I just reran some missions on hard and I must say it was much better, more challenging and no one hit wonder champions when i did die it was my own derpieness not being one hit by a champ.

[Eryhn]

I'm not really happy with the quick fix that reduced spawns significantly and weakend the champs. I'm not happy with the way it just came out of nowhere, after devs repeatedly stating they want time to gather feedback. Maybe gathering feedback meant merely looking how many people hate and how many love, and then doing the math on that and thus nerfing champs to a point u might as well take them out again.

I'm also not really happy with the overall discussion of matter on the forums, it seems the worst of both sides are loudest at voicing their opinions, that is to say:

on the one hand the sometimes socialy impaired elitists, who apparently have been harboring a slowly growing long hidden grudge that people who have NOT been playing this game for at least a year (in that time amassing ample gear, past lives and quest understanding) should not be allowed into *your* precious elitist game in the first place - yes, there is a contradiction in that concept, and when I call you socially impaired I mean ONLY those of you who have been displaying an attitude here on the forums towards the community as a whole and especially newbies and casuals that in my humble opinion would best be dealt with with at least a one week's BANN, forum and game as well for good measure. Been a while since I read so many highly disrespectful nasty posts within a few days.

on the other hand are the equally self-centered, shortsighted and unkind people advocating to do away with all of this, and let me make amply clear, I find the attitude of "if its too tough for a significant amount of people I want you take it out completely and take away the newfound challenge from the top crew in the process cause I dont care at all" just as lacking in respect. What's with this stupid "it's their own fault for stacking up 10 lives and thus making the game boring for themselves"? Yes, there are people spending 3 or 4 more times worth of hours ingame than you, and yes, they too STILL have a right to have fun.


In all this we should be aware that power levels between players were never balanced and never will be. certain builds at certain times are OP, and, as a generall rule, of course there is a huge difference between first lifers, and even a 2nd life who has gotten himself some 30-50 named items in the TR cache, knows most quests by now, has gained some insight into their build etc ... ALL OF US should be much more concerned not about making it right for us and wrong for the other side but rather finding some middle ground that is acceptable to as many as in any way possible.

To that end, leaving EE as it was, and taking back that nerf, seems needed to me. I dont mind some very minute finetuning on EE that ultimately results in decreased oneshots, but the overall spawn rate should not be reduced by more than 10% from initial starting ratio, and champs should remain the some time menace they were over the weekend. Obviously that doesnt solve the problem for the less elitist crowd. THUS:

Adapt HARD difficulty to the weaker players, maybe as is now after the nerf, maybe slightly unnerf by re-upping EH spawnrates (as the feedback i read is the same as my own experience you nerfed them so good you might as well have taken them out altogether), but overall EH should still be doable to first lifers.
The checkbox making EH champions completely optional choice is still an option to me, too. The bottom line is that EH must still remain accessible and satisfyingly completable to the more or less casual players. That is also because they NEED it to progress. How the hell is a casual striving to get ready for harder diffs supposed to get his or her gear if they cannot survive an EH tor loot run? How are newbies and casuals trying to learn their builds and get a feel for their clickies, tactics, movement IF ALL they CAN run is EN where shenanigans like tactics and understanding your build arent needed cause you just blaze through hack n slay anyways?

this could also be achieved by relabeling quest difficulty in general. We should honestly ask ourselves, with the current norm difficulty being blatantly easy, is there ANY justification for the *casual* difficulty setting? I cannot find a single one. so making
casual-> norm
norm -> hard minus champs
hard-> hard plus champs with some punch
elite -> as it was on weekend, minus some minor remove stupid instakills/stupid mob classes excluded from chapionization (RATS! OOZES! SHADOWS!)

No matter which way, there needs to be a middle ground level here, not just to cater to people being in the middle ground atm, but also to offer a reliable transitional stage for people on their way to gettin ready for harder diffs.

This being said on the state of the discussion and offering each type of player a satisfying diff to run, some few more technical remarks:

CHAMP BUFF DISPLAY: maybe I am missing something here in handling the UI, but I so far have not found a way to get the chamion buffs displayed to me without having to click *examine* on a trageted champ, MIDFIGHT - needless to say that is not always a viable thing to do, it helps me little to know that dude had tripple dps if by the time I find out he tripple decapitated me.
THUS, plz change the examine mob/npc/item UI window in such a way that it gets an extra line/frame/window, or the OPTION to show that extra display, where I can look at with once glance the moment I hard target a mob and reliably see his buffs. I dont even see this as breaking lore, any pen and paper DM would tell you stuff like, "the oger before you rushes at you with an aura of frightful rage and abandon, you feel the urge to hide behind your shield as surely getting hit by this mosntrosity seeming far stronger than his peers would not be pleasant" or "you catch a fleeting feeling of magic from the oger that seems to resist your own magical energy, it would appear somebody has strengthend his magical defenses with a spell" etc pp...
Champs are supposed to make things more dynamic, yes? well, the whole hit examine thing is NOT dynamic.

LOOTS: im happy to hear you plan something for champions. all the options mentioned so far sound nice, but plz plz with sugar atop, DO NOT, I repeat NOT make a new type of collectable like champion tokens. We have more than enough collectables. You have introduced ample *upgrade invent space incentives* already. Enough. be done with that. Also, we dont need another type of item that goes in bag and WILL be duped, too at one or the other update or hotfix breaking the current fix in the future, again....

REWARDS: find some meaningful and balanced way to add xp to the champions. Even before champs, nobody ran EE for XP but rather for funs and items. I would run more EH and EE if I werent dependant on EN zergs that get the leveling done faster. Now, with champs, its all the more appaling oversight to have EH and EE take yet longer compared to EN, with no gain.

Lastly, COMMUNICATION. I noted Devs posting quite a bit on things despite the fact they were still in the process of reading up on feedback, and I appreciate that. However,on a general level, the amount of rant in either direction shows an underlying lack of communication on part of turbine

You should have devised a longer message to the community, posted on bords, and mailed to every user acc mail, as well as put a link to the forum post in the launcher. msg reads something like this maybe:

Dear players,
as you surely already have noticed, much of our efforts over the last half year have been aimed at balancing or re-balancing classes and thus player power. This is an ongoing process that will yet go own for a number of updates, as we adress the classes in need of changes one after another. We hope and expect to arrive at a better semblance of overall game balance once the class/enhancement pass is done.
Regardless of that, we felt the amount of changes in both content and mechanics over the last years neccessitate some more immediate changes to overall difficulty levels now rather than later. To that end we have introduced a new type of mob, the champions, which are stronger, and more random in their abilities than your average mob. We also hope that this newly introduced type of mob will help in adding some new dynamic to the game thereby hopefully adding to everybody's playing experience.
However, the changes we are planning to undertake with the champions are rather far-reaching, and, like the classes and enhances, will take some time to properly adjust. Thus, we appologize to all players who feel inconvenienced by these changes, we humbly ask you to give us feedback and opinions on the forums so we may better adjust the changes to your likings.
We are also aware, that for the time being, the implemented changes bring to the fore the differences between casual players and more engaged players used to harder difficulites quite obviously. It is not our intention to alienate one group of players from the other, and we would like to reassure you that the fun and enjoyment of all our different customers is important to us. With regard to that, we kindly ask you to refrain from needlessly emotional and aggresive postings when you give your feedback. trolling the feedback threads will be met with **** extreme prejudice****

ok sry couldn't stop myself from that last sentence. otherwise, such be my 5cents as of now

[Pandir]

A new difficulty will not solve anything.

Ubers will run it.

Non Ubers will want to run and soap box it to get nerfed.

And this showcase has showed it would be nerfed to placate.

Waste of time.

Sure some will, but by no means even close to the debate now.

The problem here is that they made elite more accessible to a broader range
of players and now they did try to take that away again.
That always hits harder as not having something in the first place, especially if people like me liked it as it was before.

Adding something new on the other hand that is out of reach to start with is either
ignorable or something to aim for.

There's been some ideas in this threat to to incentive it without making it feel mandatory.

It's an idea for a compromise, frankly for all I care they could do away with the champions and be done with it.
(Although I admit with the last nerf they seem acceptable but I only managed to squeeze in 2 quests yesterday)
On the other hand I also wouldn't mind a new difficulty to aspire to solo if I feel like it.

[katz]

ran 2 quests tonight... however, i managed to fail the 2nd one at the last moment... i HATE escort quests >.> in frustration i recalled before i checked overall kills, so i don't have an average for that quest. i did however record the mini-boss numbers (it was small problem... LOTS of orange names in there)

EH von3 - 133 mobs killed. 8 champions resulting in 6% average.

EH small proplem - no average numbers, but of 18 orange names killed, 6 of them were champions for about a 33% average. 2 of them dropped chests. (roughly 11% chance)


and while i've only skimmed most of this topic... the rage flying back and forth is rather funny to me. i find it hard to believe that some people honestly believe that YET ANOTHER big-bag-o-HPs that may or may not have a cheesy instakill actually increases challenge. let me clue ya in... it doesn't... really it doesn't. all it does is introduce two really unliked features together in one mob that isn't even the end boss... it's just some random schmuck midway thru any ol' quest. i'd be willing to bet money that more people would have left over the champions staying the way they were due to the sudden added un-fun-ness factor, than how many will leave now that they've been changed.



personally, i like the adjustments. keeping champions in play, but a little less frequently, and a little less strong still keeps things interesting, without being stupid, annoying, and/or cheesy. keeps me a bit more on my toes, without my needing to worry that one of them will insta-cheese-kill me somehow. that i'm all for.

[HernandoCortez]

[bartharok]

Pretty pictures. But what are they supposed to represent?

[Claver]

Ran Made To Order last night on Heroic Elite.

Joined LFM and quest about half way in progress.

I did not observe any Champions.

The group was split up. I heard one player say he saw a champion Iron Golem in one of the rooms with a crest.

The quest did not feel any more challenging to me on Elite than before the update. The behavior of the pug seemed no different than what I typically experienced prior to the update (splitting up rather than working together to defeat champions)

[Qhualor]

Once again, now try reading this slowly. I'm not talking about a 900% increase or x10 like the devs are saying is a bug. I've not seen a x10 hp mob in game yet. The devs have made no comment on what is the correct amount to be seen only that x10 is not intentional. I quite clearly am stating that the ones I'm seeing are X3 to x4 hit points. You just cant stand the fact that you are wrong and have been called on it and are linking a dev comment that has no relevance. Your reply may have well as been a devs quote about the changes to shared banks.

x3 or x4 may well be intentional, but as the devs have not said what is the intentional amount. Perhaps they don't have a clear figure to give. The fact remains that X3 to x4 are not a small increase.

REPORT IT if you have issues with the hp. we know that x10 or more is too high, so you can assume that below that it could be fine. whats the worst the devs will do when you report it? say its WAI? don't try to make this into a personal issue that I am having and cant stand to be wrong. I am going by my own experiences and what the devs have said. why is this hard for you to understand. stop trying to prove you are right and I am wrong and take action instead of complaining. report anything you have a problem with. its that simple.

[TechknowCat]

this could also be achieved by relabeling quest difficulty in general. We should honestly ask ourselves, with the current norm difficulty being blatantly easy, is there ANY justification for the *casual* difficulty setting? I cannot find a single one. so making
casual-> norm
norm -> hard minus champs
hard-> hard plus champs with some punch
elite -> as it was on weekend, minus some minor remove stupid instakills/stupid mob classes excluded from chapionization (RATS! OOZES! SHADOWS!)

this 1000 times yes!
because normal is right now so easy and boring, it makes one want to punch themselves in the face!
hard right befor the champs felt like where normal should have been.

[Stinging_Bee]

The point of all the Monster Champions discussion is that at some point everyone in the game, after spent enough hours in the game to gather loot and past lives, need more challenge to stick to the game more and be interested.

People don't realize that the request for more challenge is not for the sake of elitist players but instead for the casual that after some experience in the game need to face some bigger threats and longer quests because he became a better player by playing the game.

If we don't have a ladder we will see the game dying even faster.

For a game like ddo you want to have a ladder like this:
Casual difficulty - meant for the new guy Joe, that just rolled his character and never played any other mmos.
Normal difficulty - meant for the new guy Joe, that have done couple of quests and is now familiar with game controls or totally new players with experience in other mmos
Hard difficulty - again meant for Joe that now has gotten into a guild, has ship buffs and is finally starting to have a working character so he can group with his new friends to do something more interesting than normal. Insert Monster Champion here so this people will start to learn how they work.
Elite difficulty - After X years spent in the game our "new player" Joe now has X past lives, raid loot gear, good understanding how how to build a character and good friends that can help him in the hardest quests of the game. This elite mode has to be super difficult otherwise Joe stops to play the game because there is no point in getting gear and past life anymore

Notice how asking for more challenge is not meant to cater a certain kind of player but for the health of the game.
Elite difficulty has to be balanced on experienced and best geared characters meanwhile casual has to be balanced for no past life, naked character

On a side note I hear people complaining that trash mobs do more damage then raid bosses. That is just plain false.
No monster champion caster can do more damage than Abbot energy burst and Vol Dragon breath.
No monster champion melee can do more damage than EE Mark of death Deathknights.

So in short Monster champions were fine before the nerf made by the devs that are killing their own game.
Yesterday I had a monster champion archer with damage buff in a level 28 EE quest hit me for less than 30 points of damage on my robe wearing caster. Is that some sort of a challenge?