Monster Champion Feedback

[Pandir]

1. My former guilds 10 members contacted me all after they read champ change and they all resubed, now they arent online since it was toned down with those specific words: "Why did i have hope?"

2. I for example only want it harder for epic elite, i dont need it harder for heroic nor eh since i dont run those difficulties most of the time. I dont need to kill the fun on newbies, but newbies and people not running ee should not kill my fun which has been killed

3. Incorrect, almost every vet i know has multiple accounts on vip subscription.
Example on cannith we have a person who has a guild named on his name with alts of ....
That person had around 6-7 vip accounts at same time, and he doesnt play anylonger since he is bored from casual ddo.
Now that person is vip on 6-7 accounts while buying all shared banks/all packs/classes/races/content.
Not a single person can make me believe that ddo can affort losing players like that.
Also he is not the only one like that, i know many for example only on our server and i bet there is more on other more populated servers.
That was secure income which turbine deleted by themselfs

4. Many people liked champion system since it provided challenging fun, this is now toned down and they are nothing beside meathpbags that you sometimes cant invisi past. Rather stupid implementation of something that should had provided the "o danger" moment and was turned into "sigh not again" moment

Funnily enough if they just added a new difficulty with champions(let's leave the checkbox aside here for a moment) both sides could have had their cake.

[BD_]

I'm not quite sure how else I should have asked that, but it was an actual question, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Like I said, I'm in favor of making them optional, that way you'd have 4 extra "difficulties" across Heroic & Elite and people would have more options instead of being forced into anything.

And I'm aware of the reactions of some of the most vocal supporters, they're not exactly what I would call valid arguments.

Increasing the difficulty of EH can be done by choosing to have champions in a quest, same for EE, because I agree that the difference between EH & EE is bigger than that between EN & EH.
If you, for example, had champions in EH, but not in EE, that would bring those 2 a lot closer together.

Adding more difficulty levels would kill pugging...

Honestly I don't think there is any "good" way to make EE harder without either universal nerfs or taking the time consuming method and tweaking individual encounters within quests with more "unique challenges"... but again, that's a different topic...

As a much more simplistic change, I'd probably "get rid of" casual (ie. casual becomes as difficult as normal is now, normal becomes as difficult as hard is now etc.) unless I'm terribly mistaken hardly anyone plays casual - not even new players...

[slarden]

First of all great job Devs/Team on introducing this new system and working so hard to make adjustments. I am sure you will get it where it needs to be.

I understand a thread is easy to throw up and it did provide some very good feedback.

I think a survey would be good at some point for some final validation/tweaking. It's probably hard for the devs and some of the players to understand the frustration of coming here and providing your honest feedback only to get ripped apart by others that disagree.

I am sure these divisive topics bring in some people that wouldn't normally post and then the negative experience makes them never want to come back again. For some people the forum seems to be a mini-game and it's about winning and losing rather than what's best for the game.

At this point for final tweaking I don't think you need to hear any more "there is a difficulty setting for you called casual" or "because you don't know how to use simple tactics" or "because you elitists should get a job and move away from your mom's".

Please consider adding a survey at some point (like the balance survey) to get more opinions and to shelter people from criticism for their opinions.

I also posted this suggestion in the general discussion - not to spam the idea - but because I think it can be buried in this very contentious thread.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...79#post5497479

[Pandir]

Adding more difficulty levels would kill pugging...

Honestly I don't think there is any "good" way to make EE harder without either universal nerfs or taking the time consuming method and tweaking individual encounters within quests with more "unique challenges"... but again, that's a different topic...

As a much more simplistic change, I'd probably "get rid of" casual (ie. casual becomes as difficult as normal is now, normal becomes as difficult as hard is now etc.) unless I'm terribly mistaken hardly anyone plays casual - not even new players...

I don't think it would kill pugging more than the streaks already do, if you want to encourage pugging first step I think would be to change the implementation of the bravery bonus and group death penalties.
Imo the pugging would only be a problem if everyone would feel forced to streak on the newest highest difficulty especially for heroic.

[Aletys]

Funnily enough if they just added a new difficulty with champions(let's leave the checkbox aside here for a moment) but sides could have had their cake.

Exactly.

/signed.

[BD_]

I don't think it would kill pugging more than the streaks already do, if you want to encourage pugging first step I think would be to change the implementation of the bravery bonus and group death penalties.
Imo the pugging would only be a problem if everyone would feel forced to streak on the newest highest difficulty especially for heroic.

At heroic levels, you're probably right - but at epic...

[Keladon]

Funnily enough if they just added a new difficulty with champions(let's leave the checkbox aside here for a moment) but sides could have had their cake.

/signed

Wouldn't solve the issue with some people finding EH too easy, but it would be better for pugging I guess.

[Blackheartox]

Funnily enough if they just added a new difficulty with champions(let's leave the checkbox aside here for a moment) but sides could have had their cake.

Must agree that this would had been the best idea

[Benihim]

The elitist is likely a VIP while the newb/casual player is not very likely to spend any money on the game short of things like black friday sales.

Or maybe not. How would YOU know?

Why would an elitist be likely a VIP? The benifit of being VIP is to have access to adventure packs and be able to open elite. Any elitist can open elite and should be able to Tr once a week with a minimum amount of 2k favors. Thats 500 tps a week, in a few months any elitist should have enough tps to buy all the packs he wants. Why would any elitist be a VIP? Are you a VIP?

[Ayseifn]

Hmm no why ? We're talking about not taking anything away that is already there.

Champions are already here, Turbine basically just took them away with this latest change.

You were asking for more challenge not more rewards right ?
But as I said when I first mentioned the checkbox they could add a reward system to make running the champs desirable.
(That actually means ie. you could at a ton of XP to the higher setting, add more drop chance and such to the champion runs as long as the base elite reward stays the same.
Even more favour if the same amount of favour that is reachable by running Elite now stays the same, just add more rewards past 5000.
My preferrence would have been a token system someone mentioned back in Lamania and added XP per champ kill)

I must've missed that post, so apologies it's a long thread.

More challenge without any more reward is kind of crappy, people generally follow the path of least resistance. Before bravery people would do normal up to 7 times, then maybe hard and elite once each if the quest was good xp/min, or all the people doing the newer raids on normal multiple times with bypasses instead of trying hard or elite. Or when Shroud gave the same rewards on all difficulties, people just ran normal.

Some reward system could be ok if checkboxes are really needed, players are much varied on the power scale(for lack of a better term) compared to other games because of both how old this game is(knowledge/gear) and TRing(character power/gear). It still has the usual things that separate players in other games like player skill and good guilds but those first two, and I guess also build diversity really stretch things to the limit.

4 Difficulties probably aren't enough any more as people are falling through the cracks. Hard is too hard but normal too easy, elite too hard but hard too easy, elite too easy, etc. I guess checkboxes could cover this if champions are such a huge deal for some, not sure it'd really open things up much though as they're pretty weak now. Would have preferred to just tweak champions to be made equally dangerous.

Stuff like the fortification ignoring champs hurt all pretty equally, the the TS ones vs people with a backpack full of displace clickies or perma blur, or the fact that they spawn randomly surprising everything equally. More stuff like that, less things like +10x HP.

[Edwardt]

Ok, i'll bite. Heroic elite isn't supposed to be an appropriate challenge. It'e elite after all. It should be nearly impossible. If you let them nerf heroic elite, you'll just be bored with it in a few months. Since i get the impression you don't run many epics, i'll tell you that pre champions, upper level heroic elite quests were already harder than their epic hard counterparts.

agree!

The scaling of the heroic contend was just fine before the update.
Now after the recent changes ist's ok for me and add a element of uncertainty, but it also drives me to skip some quest, because I just don't want to find out where the champs this time will spawn.

every quest with a high possibility of getting champion Ice Flensers which will one shot you - no thanks
Tomb of the Tormented - no thanks
Enter the Kobold - no thanks

[Pandir]

Champions are already here, Turbine basically just took them away with this latest change.

I must've missed that post, so apologies it's a long thread.

More challenge without any more reward is kind of crappy, people generally follow the path of least resistance. Before bravery people would do normal up to 7 times, then maybe hard and elite once each if the quest was good xp/min, or all the people doing the newer raids on normal multiple times with bypasses instead of trying hard or elite. Or when Shroud gave the same rewards on all difficulties, people just ran normal.

Some reward system could be ok if checkboxes are really needed, players are much varied on the power scale(for lack of a better term) compared to other games because of both how old this game is(knowledge/gear) and TRing(character power/gear). It still has the usual things that separate players in other games like player skill and good guilds but those first two, and I guess also build diversity really stretch things to the limit.

4 Difficulties probably aren't enough any more as people are falling through the cracks. Hard is too hard but normal too easy, elite too hard but hard too easy, elite too easy, etc. I guess checkboxes could cover this if champions are such a huge deal for some, not sure it'd really open things up much though as they're pretty weak now. Would have preferred to just tweak champions to be made equally dangerous.

Stuff like the fortification ignoring champs hurt all pretty equally, the the TS ones vs people with a backpack full of displace clickies or perma blur, or the fact that they spawn randomly surprising everything equally. More stuff like that, things like +10x HP.

Ya I know that higher difficulty without reward does usually not do it for alot of people I just wish they'd say that outright without pretending all they want is challenge(speaking generally).

I can't speak for how hard the champs now are as I won't be able to play before the weekend probably, but the disappointment you feel about their nerfing is about the same disappoint people that liked EE before felt when EE wasn't achievable for them anymore due to champions.
Hence why it IMO been better from the start to not force the champs on everyone and add options/new difficulty with rewards(Although I'd prefer the reward to not be more powerful items).

[Ironforge_Clan]

Funnily enough if they just added a new difficulty with champions(let's leave the checkbox aside here for a moment) both sides could have had their cake.

You are absolutely right...but instead of adding a new difficulty they should just remove the bottom tier and use champions (as it was) for the elite tier. The devs have spent years making the game easier for the masses and the lowest common denominator this would have solved some of that issue. The elitists would have gotten their challenge and the casuals would have gotten their easy button.

[Impaqt]

This thread is not about convincing other players whos right and wrong.

Its not a negotiation. We're not here to compromise.

After playing last night, I feel the adjustments went a bit too far. EH was better that it was pre-24, but had lost some of the "on yer toes" feel.

This can also be attributed to the fact that after the weekend, people were becoming more in tune with the increase in difficulty and were preparing better. the changes should of been given more time. Especially in epic levels.

[Pandir]

You are absolutely right...but instead of adding a new difficulty they should just remove the bottom tier and use champions (as it was) for the elite tier. The devs have spent years making the game easier for the masses and the lowest common denominator this would have solved some of that issue. The elitists would have gotten their challenge and the casuals would have gotten their easy button.

In that case you'd still alter the current Elite, thereby altering something people used to. I assume no one really plays casual so removing that is fine probably(could be wrong).
Then make normal-> casual, hard -> normal, elite -> hard and add a new Elite.
Rewards stay the same as is with something extra for the new elite, unless that's what you meant anyways.

[DragonMageT]

Feedback after change:

I noticed right away that something had changed without even reading the forum post from Cordovan.
(which I didn't read until this morning).

EH Spies, Wiz King, Von 3, Vol, & Flesh very little difference from old EH.

I didn't get a chance to run some EEs last night, mainly due to thinking the old Champion system was in place
and didn't want to take the extra time on EE (limited play time last night) and was scared to run it in a limited party.

One thing I did notice, it seemed like more Champion spawned with less HP, the 20%/30% versions.
It could have just been me but it seemed like more "Wimpy Champions" spawned.

[Ague]

Apparently non-combative NPC's are in the pool of randomness for Champion status. Heroic Elite Ghost of a Chance in the SS.

http://ddocrafting.info/images/Farrier%20Worley.png

[Edwardt]

[...]

Its not a negotiation. We're not here to compromise.

[...]

Oh, did I miss something? Tell me what is this about?

Apparently non-combative NPC's are in the pool of randomness for Champion status. Heroic Elite Ghost of a Chance in the SS.

I've seen some non-combative NPC's in Threndal, too.

Funnily enough if they just added a new difficulty with champions(let's leave the checkbox aside here for a moment) both sides could have had their cake.

Must agree that this would had been the best idea

I would agree to that one, too.

[Erdrique]

I haven't caught up on all of the posts since the change was made yesterday to the champions but I did notice a few strange things yesterday, but then again it could have been me. I ran my character Hamllin (Level 13 Fighter) through Purge the Fallen Shrine on elite. The quest is primarily composed of flesh renders (cacodemons), fire reavers (pyrodemons), and mephits. The only champions I came across, for the regular enemies, were some of the mephits. None of the flesh renders or reavers were champions, which I thought strange.

The second from last fight contains four orange named enemies: an efreeti, a hellhound, and two mephits. Again, only the mephits were champions. The only other champion I encountered was the final boss, which I thought was red-named, but I guess I was wrong on that. The final boss is a wraith. He was the only champion I encountered.

[MadCookieQueen]

So last night I had a chance to run EE Orchard with my melee PM...found a few champions. It wasn't as bad as everyone makes it sounds. Granted...not easy but not the doom and horrible gloom I kept hearing about. It was also a bit of a pain to realize that my DC spells weren't hitting worth squat but that only forced some play tactic changes.

We had one of the cinderspawn in Inferno go champion and he left us a nice little chest when he died. It was the only time we saw a chest come out of dealing with a champion. Actually it was kind of cool.

So yeah...the concept is great...some of the one shot killers we ran into were annoying but it happens. I'm sure it'll be tweaked around like medication until we get the right balance.

Until then...can't zerg like I used to and changing your game play tactics on the fly is a necessity. Oh the horrors of having to pay attention to what I'm doing in elite quests. I have no idea how I will ever survive.

Overall not to shabby...but please...no one hit killers and you know little extra loot for our trouble is a good thing ^^