Monster Champion Feedback

[Aletys]

Didn't get a chance to run a lot yesterday, but we did Foundations of Discord in Gianthold on EE. Full party, balanced. I concentrated mostly on healing & rez'ing, and when I could, blinding the mobs (I ran on my level 28, all destinies maxed, cleric). Everyone stayed together, & no one zerged.

I was too busy trying keeping toons alive or rez'ing them to count how many champions we had, but it did not seem to be nearly as bad as it had before the changes yesterday. We had several party members one-shot by champions, some several times. They went down so fast, I couldn't get the heal (or harm) out before they were dead. The pale master in the group had it the worst, as he kept getting one-shot by the champion clerics with light spells. Second worst were the melee's. They were getting hit hard, and they got one-shot as well. I think everyone except my toon ended up dying at least once, most more than once. I ended up having to take a couple of Sovereign Mnemonic Elixir pots to keep going, as even with nearly 3K SP, I ran out a couple of times. I suspect the sorcerer & the pm did the same.

It was challenging, however, we did complete. It was far from impossible, and we didn't get any red dungeon alerts. I consider that it was a difficult, but not unreasonable run. It would have been considerably more difficult, however, if the sorc & I hadn't kept throwing light spells to blind the mobs. However, I suspect that the guys getting repeatedly one-shot may not agree that it was reasonable ... they didn't sound too happy.

Of course, I was level 28, and on EE it's a level 26 quest. I think it would have been a lot tougher if we'd all been at level for the quest, or if my ED's weren't maxed out.

[Qhualor]

Yes i see. This is the" I don't have to outrun the monster, i just have to outrun you" tactic. On a serious note, do you realistically think that there is now going to be a tank in every party? to be honest, if there has to be a must have party member i would just be/bring a spellsinger. Just trap everything in a discoball and not worry at all how hard they hit.

you don't need a "tank" in any party when just running quests. use the strengths of your character and party members and think before jumping into a situation you know might be rough for you. there are options, but people sometimes don't want to take the time to utilize their options.

[FestusHood]

If they increase the difficulty gap between hard and elite by too much, the result will be a very large portion of the player base that has no "appropriate" or fun difficulty. - ie they sleepwalk through hard and can't even come close to handling elite...

The gap between epic hard and epic elite was already quite large, and it took me quite a while to make the step up, and i am (was) still making it. The fact that a level 22 quest on epic elite is much harder than, say a level 28 quest on epic hard. That aside from the fact that i am not a fan of the random mechanic of champions in general.

[Keladon]

With respect to the difficulty gap between EH and EE yes...

For me? No, EH wouldn't be too hard for me... you're falling into the same "elitist" one track mindset that anyone who says the champion system has flaws thinks the game is too hard and can't handle it.

I have multiple characters that can still steamroll most EE's solo... and would probably still be able to solo most EE's even if literally every mob was a champion... I wouldn't want to because I'd find it boring but that's a different topic...

That doesn't make any sense at all. The "elitist" one track mindset is that the game should be so hard only they can run it, I'm a casual player and judging from what you just said.. you're an "elitist".

"I don't run EE, it's too easy and boring.. I run an even easier difficulty" Makes sense.. ehm..

[FestusHood]

Ok, so propose a solution.

I say we make EE almost impossible, and immediately after that I see people saying: "don't make it too hard".. Are you kidding me?

A perfect summary for this thread would be: "We want a more difficult game, but don't actually make it more difficult, we just want to have something to complain about!"

You have no idea what you are talking about here. I've made many posts in this thread, and also back to the first thread about this on lammania. Don't put words in my mouth.

You put forth a bad idea, i'll tell you i don't like it. I'm equal opportunity that way.

[BD_]

That doesn't make any sense at all. The "elitist" one track mindset is that the game should be so hard only they can run it, I'm a casual player and judging from what you just said.. you're an "elitist".

No, I have powerful characters and know how to play the game so I'm able to "handle" whatever the game throws at me and currently able to steamroll most EE's. Unlike most of what I consider "elitists", I don't think everyone who can't do what I can in game "sucks", or think that the game should only be changed to make more challenge for me and better loot for me.

I made a statement that said I disagreed with an increase in difficulty gap between EE and EH. You jumped on my statement and later make the snarky comment of "would EH be too hard for you then?" If you have a reason for saying that other than, you assumed that because I said something against increasing difficulty that I must suck at DDO and can't handle it feel free to share it.

[Albinosaurus]

which elite players are you talking about. less generalization and more specifics.

I talk about elite, but I don't always run it because im focused more on past lives than playing the class I want to play right now. I wont have the proper gear exactly, play the past life with 100% interest and knowledge and wont invest in it more than what I loot or acquire along the way. I also don't run certain packs until a certain level when my characters are a little stronger or more at level.

I'm talking about the ones who are crying that HH and EH was toned down a bit. I don't care how hard they make EE--that's the tip top of content--but HE needs to not have them because the BB dictates that they are for faster leveling and past life farming. EH just needs less of them so that it's some extra challenge, but not so ridiculous that people don't want to run it--all this ignoring the fact that they give no reason to even want to deal with them all in the first place.

As a side note, I mentioned this in my first post on this topic and I think I've seen one other person even touch on it... The quests were designed a certain way, and the champions' random nature and unpredictable power variance throws that design out the window, breaking some quests altogether. It was a horrible idea that was horribly implemented. I'll admit that it had "good intentions," but the version we see now shows both a lack of understanding of the game and enormous laziness on the part of the devs. Worse, it shows a lack of understanding of the player base, which is evidenced by how polarized people's views here are. There are lots of ways they could add challenge for those that want it, but it's a huge mistake to change the content people are used to running so drastically, especially when it breaks some of that content.

Frankly, they should pull it from live and fine tune it on Lammania, open to the notion that it may not even be good for the game in the first place. It's actually quite appalling that they didn't put it through the proper paces on the test server first.

[Keladon]

No, I have powerful characters and know how to play the game so I'm able to "handle" whatever the game throws at me and currently able to steamroll most EE's. Unlike most of what I consider "elitists", I don't think everyone who can't do what I can in game "sucks", or think that the game should only be changed to make more challenge for me and better loot for me.

I made a statement that said I disagreed with an increase in difficulty gap between EE and EH. You jumped on my statement and later make the snarky comment of "would EH be too hard for you then?" If you have a reason for saying that other than, you assumed that because I said something against increasing difficulty that I must suck at DDO and can't handle it feel free to share it.

Snarky comment?

That was a fair question, I was trying to find the middle ground.

I wanted to know if EH had the same difficulty that EE had before champions, it would be considered TOO hard.

You have no idea what you are talking about here. I've made many posts in this thread, and also back to the first thread about this on lammania. Don't put words in my mouth.

You put forth a bad idea, i'll tell you i don't like it. I'm equal opportunity that way.

Great ad-hominem you got going there.

You're allowed to not like my ideas, that's why it's called a "discussion".

[Ayseifn]

That doesn't make any sense at all. The "elitist" one track mindset is that the game should be so hard only they can run it, I'm a casual player and judging from what you just said.. you're an "elitist".

"I don't run EE, it's too easy and boring.. I run an even easier difficulty" Makes sense.. ehm..

I don't care too much if everyone can run the highest difficulty as long as I'm challenged by it, this nerf to champions has made the game too easy again.

[Pandir]

Mmmmfff at least the devs are listening, still not happy about the whole champion thing(how it was implemented) but it's a start.

[BD_]

Snarky comment? Talk about assuming things.

That was a fair question, I was trying to find the middle ground.

The way you posted it, it came across as very similar to comments such as:

"If you don't want champions play Normal or Casual", or "Casuals that want EE to be easy are ruining the game."

If you look through various champion threads, you'll find that there has been an attitude by many of the most vocal supporters of champions that anyone who says anything against them must just suck and can't handle them.

I stated exactly why I was opposed to increasing the difficulty of EE without increasing the difficulty of EH. IMO every setting (other than casual is too easy, but again that's a different topic)

[Pandir]

Snarky comment?

That was a fair question, I was trying to find the middle ground.

I wanted to know if EH had the same difficulty that EE had before champions, it would be considered TOO hard.

For some yes for some no. That's the problem with arbitrary changing difficulty, you throw out some people from where they are comfortable no matter what.

Would have been much better to add a higher difficulty or add that ominous checkbox.

[Ayseifn]

For some yes for some no. That's the problem with arbitrary changing difficulty, you throw out some people from where they are comfortable no matter what.

Would have been much better to add a higher difficulty or add that ominous checkbox.

Could also add a checkbox for hard and elite, get rid of the better loot/xp/favour and all good right?

[Keladon]

The way you posted it, it came across as very similar to comments such as:

"If you don't want champions play Normal or Casual", or "Casuals that want EE to be easy are ruining the game."

If you look through various champion threads, you'll find that there has been an attitude by many of the most vocal supporters of champions that anyone who says anything against them must just suck and can't handle them.

I stated exactly why I was opposed to increasing the difficulty of EE without increasing the difficulty of EH. IMO every setting (other than casual is too easy, but again that's a different topic)

I'm not quite sure how else I should have asked that, but it was an actual question, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Like I said, I'm in favor of making them optional, that way you'd have 4 extra "difficulties" across Heroic & Elite and people would have more options instead of being forced into anything.

And I'm aware of the reactions of some of the most vocal supporters, they're not exactly what I would call valid arguments.

Increasing the difficulty of EH can be done by choosing to have champions in a quest, same for EE, because I agree that the difference between EH & EE is bigger than that between EN & EH.
If you, for example, had champions in EH, but not in EE, that would bring those 2 a lot closer together.

[Claver]

The first thing it did was slow things down. Players that ran ahead by themselves were by and by killed off pretty quickly, even the multiple TR'd excellently geared super-build types. And oh how that made me smile. It forced them to pace themselves with at least some of the group. Even that little amount of cooperation felt like a hugely positive thing, especially in DDO.


Anyhow, I just logged off after a few hours of play, feeling out the new toned-down champion element. I'm very sad to say it's like they weren't even there. It was back to a zerg-fest through epic elite quests, that, the day before, were actually slower, more enjoyable, cooperative ventures. I didn't know how great DDO could feel until the last update - and now that's it back to what it was, the game is quickly losing its appeal.

Very nice post Brokenhoof…I feel the same way.

It would be awesome if the Devs could have two Champion Systems as a compromise:

(1) The current nerfed version of Champions for Hard settings so that those concerned about soloing while maintaining a bravery bonus could still do so.

(2) The previous weekend's implementation of Champions for Elite so that those who want new life breathed into old content can find a challenge and maybe a cooperative group experience akin to playing dungeons and dragons in a party.

[Blackheartox]

1. There's no evidence that people are staying because it was harder, or that anyone came back for that reason. The people who were here were already staying.

2. The primary point that I qualified was about making it optional. If it was a choice on the player's part, they could make both camps happy. (Well, except for the ***holes who just want it harder for everyone, but they are sociopaths and shouldn't be taken seriously anyway.)

3. I said before in a different post, this game can afford to lose some vets; it can't afford to lose its non-vet player base. This is mostly due to how much TP each group is willing to buy, but also because of its effect on LFMs. It's easier to lose a lot of non-vets than to lose a similar number of vets--especially because the vets are so much more invested.

4. There is no reason that this should not be optional, except that they haven't provided a reason for players to want to do it. Lots of people have suggested lots of ways to incentivize it, but the real reason vets don't want the checkbox is that they are afraid they won't be able to fill up their groups if people have to put in extra work for no extra reward. Only the masochistic challenge-seekers want this feature, and they know the rest of us won't want to participate if there's no tangible reward for it--because it's a waste of time/resources.

1. My former guilds 10 members contacted me all after they read champ change and they all resubed, now they arent online since it was toned down with those specific words: "Why did i have hope?"

2. I for example only want it harder for epic elite, i dont need it harder for heroic nor eh since i dont run those difficulties most of the time. I dont need to kill the fun on newbies, but newbies and people not running ee should not kill my fun which has been killed

3. Incorrect, almost every vet i know has multiple accounts on vip subscription.
Example on cannith we have a person who has a guild named on his name with alts of ....
That person had around 6-7 vip accounts at same time, and he doesnt play anylonger since he is bored from casual ddo.
Now that person is vip on 6-7 accounts while buying all shared banks/all packs/classes/races/content.
Not a single person can make me believe that ddo can affort losing players like that.
Also he is not the only one like that, i know many for example only on our server and i bet there is more on other more populated servers.
That was secure income which turbine deleted by themselfs

4. Many people liked champion system since it provided challenging fun, this is now toned down and they are nothing beside meathpbags that you sometimes cant invisi past. Rather stupid implementation of something that should had provided the "o danger" moment and was turned into "sigh not again" moment


I dont want to argue, but you cannot make 1 2 3 4 numerations since you dont know how the whole community is, and i might also be entirely wrong of course.
But still, i think a game should try to make all players happy, not just 1 specific group

[Pandir]

Could also add a checkbox for hard and elite, get rid of the better loot/xp/favour and all good right?

Hmm no why ? We're talking about not taking anything away that is already there.

You were asking for more challenge not more rewards right ?
But as I said when I first mentioned the checkbox they could add a reward system to make running the champs desirable.
(That actually means ie. you could at a ton of XP to the higher setting, add more drop chance and such to the champion runs as long as the base elite reward stays the same.
Even more favour if the same amount of favour that is reachable by running Elite now stays the same, just add more rewards past 5000.
My preferrence would have been a token system someone mentioned back in Lamania and added XP per champ kill)

[FestusHood]

Snarky comment?

That was a fair question, I was trying to find the middle ground.

I wanted to know if EH had the same difficulty that EE had before champions, it would be considered TOO hard.





Great ad-hominem you got going there.

You're allowed to not like my ideas, that's why it's called a "discussion".

The answer to your first question is yes, even though i could run it myself.

To your second point, you aren't having a discussion with me, you are having an argument with some strawman (sorry Chai). I have not in this thread, nor at any time ever advocated for the game in general to be made more difficult.

[dunklezhan]

In line with my previous feedback for Heroic Hard and Elite (I haven't really played Epic at all since champs came in, all my characters are in the high teens or very low 20s right now) that:

-I think the new spawn rates are about right for Heroic Hard and Elite - much less often and much less chance of getting multiples; and
-I think that champs themselves should be beefed up (providing the random chance of a hilariously over-powerful champ can be eliminated)

Additional feedback from me is that when I see that crown I want to be worried enough to stop and inspect. I think that yes, they should be that tough - not 'one shot you' tough, but definitely 'if you don't plan this at least a little it could go south very fast' tough.

For that to work, buff feedback must be clear enough that I can decide quickly what my tactics ought to be. At the very least I should need to decide whether trash or champ is the priority here and adjust tactics if necessary. Possibly I should also be able to tell whether range or melee is going to be most effective. Current buff feedback does not achieve this adequately.

E.g. A buff which says it may apply debuffs on melee or spells is no use to me - I need to know which this mob gets (melee or ranged/spells - I don't need to know what the debuff itself will be). I ran into a vine horror with this buff which only applied a debuff on that acid ball they throw - a cool snaring debuff as it happens, but the point it is didn't apply on melee, meaning I could not adjust my tactics until after it got me once, no matter how long I spent inspecting it before attacking.

Whilst I certainly do want, and relish, the challenge of a random unexpected 'boss fight' mid quest, this also means I don't really want to be seeing multiple crowns at all except on very rare, possibly even only scripted, occasions. The more there are, the less memorable they are, and the more gimmicky they feel.

Also whilst I think that the investigations into the occasional alignment of stars that causes those massively overpowered champs to sometimes appear does need to be resolved urgently (I haven't run into any yet mind you but I see no reason to disbelieve anyone who has) please do keep elite difficulties really difficult. Not 'random death no matter what you do' difficult as that's not fun, but as a casual player myself I have never, ever thought that Elite is something people should be able to do at all without real skills, builds and gear, let alone be able to solo or zerg without being superduperamazeballz! Current Heroic difficulties were a joke compared to the power of the loot and builds that's in game now. (note that the builds alone will do it - several of my characters are still using way underpowered old-lootgen geared and were dominating Elite. Me! That's not right at all).

That isn't to say that the answer is champs - solo-capability for instance may be everything to do with dungeon scaling settings on Elite/EE.

[Keladon]

The answer to your first question is yes, even though i could run it myself.

To your second point, you aren't having a discussion with me, you are having an argument with some strawman (sorry Chai). I have not in this thread, nor at any time ever advocated for the game in general to be made more difficult.

Not all my answers were to your posts...
But correct me if I'm wrong, but we're on the same side in this discussion, so not sure what you mean with that strawman. I have answered those that want to keep champions and are still saying the game is too easy, if I quoted you in one of those posts then it was probably a mistake because I'm quoting or trying to asnwer multiple posts at the same time.