Monster Champion Feedback

[DarthCaedus]

Apples and oranges.

Obviously, it makes no sense that population decline in the past has to do with Champions, unless time-machines are involved and further, any reasonable person I think, would attribute the games declines to the "no challenge" factor, at least in great part. So you are correct.

However, VETS have been leaving because there is no end game and the game has gotten so easy.

The people here saying they are leaving seem to be players who don't even participate in the hardest content.

So it's a different group.

We have to address the needs of Group A that will leave if they have nothing to do (give vets an end game) and ALSO address the needs of Group B that will leave if they have nothing to do (middle players who find Heroic Hard Champions to hard)

The game can't afford to lose either.

And you are wrong, people who threaten to leave on the forums maybe don't... but people most certainly leave. They have already and still are by all accounts.

I'll bet you know [b]DOZENS[/i] of people, probably personal friends, who have left DDO because there is nothing to do? I do.

What will happen for Group A will happen for Group B.

EVERYONE needs something to do or they WILL leave.

(and yes, some are saying "I wanna fly through EE like always"..bla bla.. there are reasonable and unreasonable people on both sides)

This does nothing to solve the end game problem, It was a quick fix to add some challenge while leveling and to make it harder/slower for people to get TP from favor. Viewpoints differ about whether it's a positive or negative impact on game play.

This game is missing common effective things/ time sinks other MMOs have
- daily and weekly missions
- end game quests and raids (that require you to be at cap)
- multiple paths to gear up after reaching cap
- diminishing returns on time investment to top tier gear (increases in gear strength get smaller and time it takes to get those items longer)
- gear goes obsolete slowly and the # of quests with effective end game gear grows over time

I applaud the devs on taking a risk to add champions - it got mixed reviews and hopefully they will find a balance that most people can accept over time.

[DarthCaedus]

I can say one thing about them with absolute certainty.

Not a single one left because the game was too hard or because they didnt like a change that added difficulty to the game.

lol seriously. Nobody ever left the game because it was too hard or because they didn't like a change that added difficulty?

That is just not credible at all.

[Impaqt]

lol seriously. Nobody ever left the game because it was too hard or because they didn't like a change that added difficulty?

That is just not credible at all.

not what I said. I'm sure there are plenty of folks that quit because something is too hard.

I just havent had the pleasure of getting to know people like that in-game.

[DarthCaedus]

not what I said. I'm sure there are plenty of folks that quit because something is too hard.

I just havent had the pleasure of getting to know people like that in-game.

Ah, my apologies for misunderstanding - I thought you meant globally. Yes it would depend on what circles you run in. I run with people from both ends of the spectrum so I've seen it all.

[phillymiket]

maybe. maybe not. but its pretty obvious that its not possible to please both groups with the same change is it? and its hard to argue against the fact that turbine has done pretty much all they could over the past couple years to cater to your Group B. So maybe a Change that Benefits Group A is just what the game needs.

Me, I consider myself in between your groups playstyle wise. I've been on board with almost every system change turbine made to date. but its obvious to me that direction hasnt netted the results Turbine expected.


I do indeed know dozens of people who have left the game over the 8+ years I've been playing. and I can say one thing about them with absolute certainty.

Not a single one left because the game was too hard or because they didnt like a change that added difficulty to the game.

What?!?

WHY must it be one group -vs- another, again?

It most certainly is possible to find a way to please both groups. We must.

The progression Casual > Normal > Hard > Elite must MAKE some kind of SENSE.

Right now its Huge Joke > Joke > Much, much harder > Slightly harder than much, much harder.

That huge gap between JOKE and MUCH, MUCH HARDER must be addressed or, and hopefully I'm wrong, there could be a price to pay.

To clarify, I like Champs and find even Elite Champs only slightly harder (except those few unlucky pulls).

But just because my side of the fence is clear skies on this one, doesn't mean the storm clouds on the other side of the fence won't blow rain my way.

Heck, I'd even support making Normal more difficult over the way it is.

At least then Norm would be fun for them, if they're forced to play it.

and your last point is my point - Apples and oranges - Different players with different needs, both important.

This does nothing to solve the end game problem, It was a quick fix to add some challenge while leveling and to make it harder/slower for people to get TP from favor. Viewpoints differ about whether it's a positive or negative impact on game play.

This game is missing common effective things/ time sinks other MMOs have
- daily and weekly missions
- end game quests and raids (that require you to be at cap)
- multiple paths to gear up after reaching cap
- diminishing returns on time investment to top tier gear (increases in gear strength get smaller and time it takes to get those items longer)
- gear goes obsolete slowly and the # of quests with effective end game gear grows over time

I applaud the devs on taking a risk to add champions - it got mixed reviews and hopefully they will find a balance that most people can accept over time.

Oh God Please no!

My former guildies are trying to convince me to go to their new D&D style MMO that I won't name.

All that stuff you mentioned is exactly why I can't get into it.

So please no endless Dailies! No impossible grinds that everyone else cheats/buys in a day!

A "Gear Set" system, like other games, as you suggest might be nice.

And i agree, Champions are not End Game and don't even address the needs of the people who have left DDO.
It just makes EH and EE more interesting.
That's something at least. So I to applaud the effort, even if I think there are a few tragic llaws that should be tweaked.

[Tillann]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

Please don't take the easy route to make a fix... it could actually make some of the problems worse.

A champion who hits everyone for 1000+ damage treats everyone equally. (They all die.)
A champion tuned to hit for 600 damage will have one result in parties:
- Players will be kicked from parties if they don't have 600+ hps.
This actually hurts partying, (and non-reincarnated players.)

Please see my comments on Page 42 of this thread, on champions and reincarnation balance:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...eedback/page42

Secondly, IMHO the hard/elite orange named mobs should be further reduced to 20% and 40% (from 33% / 66%) respectively.
Ironically, when too many mobs are champions, it makes it *easier*, since everyone expects them.
When it is the exception, rather than the rule, they gain the advantage of surprise.

Thank you for your interest in refining what could be a positive addition.

[redoubt]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

Thank you for posting hard numbers. it makes it easier for us to test it and provide better feedback.

I had not seen this prior to my morning session, but I'll begin logging again later.

Some subjective feedback:
Full group of 7-9s in Tear of Dhakan, Gwyland's and Graverobber. Then 3 man in EH BOB and full von3 EH.

Across the board the reduction in spawn rate was very noticeable. I like that they are around, but not in clusters. The felt spread out enough to be actual "champions". In our five quests no one got one-shot. HP seemed appropriate; they all had more than normal, but nothing that seemed ludicrous for the level. Initially this spawn rate feels right and would provide, in my opinion, a platform to make the individual champions each a little tougher.

[DarthCaedus]

What?!?

WHY must it be one group -vs- another, again?

It most certainly is possible to find a way to please both groups. We must.

The progression Casual > Normal > Hard > Elite must MAKE some kind of SENSE.

Right now its Huge Joke > Joke > Much, much harder > Slightly harder than much, much harder.

That huge gap between JOKE and MUCH, MUCH HARDER must be addressed or, and hopefully I'm wrong, there could be a price to pay.

To clarify, I like Champs and find even Elite Champs only slightly harder (except those few unlucky pulls).

But just because my side of the fence is clear skies on this one, doesn't mean the storm clouds on the other side of the fence won't blow rain my way.

Heck, I'd even support making Normal more difficult over the way it is.

At least then Norm would be fun for them, if they're forced to play it.

and your last point is my point - Apples and oranges - Different players with different needs, both important.

Agreed!

[Impaqt]

What?!?

WHY must it be one group -vs- another, again?

It most certainly is possible to find a way to please both groups. We must.

The progression Casual > Normal > Hard > Elite must MAKE some kind of SENSE.

Right now its Huge Joke > Joke > Much, much harder > Slightly harder than much, much harder.

That huge gap between JOKE and MUCH, MUCH HARDER must be addressed or, and hopefully I'm wrong, there could be a price to pay.

To clarify, I like Champs and find even Elite Champs only slightly harder (except those few unlucky pulls).

But just because my side of the fence is clear skies on this one, doesn't mean the storm clouds on the other side of the fence won't blow rain my way.

Heck, I'd even support making Normal more difficult over the way it is.

At least then Norm would be fun for them, if they're forced to play it.

and your last point is my point - Apples and oranges - Different players with different needs, both important.

Dunno what to say to that. I simply dont believe its possible to please every type of player with a system change like this.

some players are always going to want someone to look down on. Others are always going to feel entitled to complete the hardest difficulties at no cost.

there truely is no medium ground for these players. and often they are quite loud in the forums.

[Springstring]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

Thank you for the changes, the only really problem was the number that spawned and that they could one shot much of a party (using weapons), while the party (using weapons) could no one shot them.

Keep up the good work

[legendkilleroll]

Are the changes alreasy live? Just ran EE LoD and servants and seemed like the spawn rate was alot lower, great job back to how it was before update :/

[Qhualor]

Unfortunately they are being honest - if you're the kind of person who looks down their nose at everyone who doesn't play the way that you play, everyone who doesn't play the way you play MUST be looking for an easy button.

There couldn't possibly be any other reason why everyone wouldn't want to play the way the "ubers" play... O.o

Again, this is the devs reacting to "us" asking for the game to be more challenging. Direct your attention to them and what they gave us for challenge, not the players who welcome it.

[redoubt]

Thats actually not true at all. and dont get me wrong, I am an advocate of looking at the favor reward tiers and modifying them if necessary.

But, you dont "need" elite to accumulate enough favor to gain FREE turbine points. You can simply run MORE quests on Normal or hard. You dont need to run a single quest on elite to get your backpack spaces or bank slots. You just need to do more quests on Normal and hard.

if this slows down people running 200 favor on an alt server just to accumulate free turbine points, that totally not a problem to me.

True, you don't NEED to. But even if elite takes longer, its 3x the favor. Unless it take you 3x the time of normal to run it, its more efficient to favor farm elites.

[Impaqt]

True, you don't NEED to. But even if elite takes longer, its 3x the favor. Unless it take you 3x the time of normal to run it, its more efficient to favor farm elites.

I think you mean it was more efficient to farm elites.

so if running a dungeon on Normal takes 10 Minutes. and then Hard takes 25 Minutes, and Elite, you fail every time. You should probably stick to Normal.

Turbine does not owe anyone free turbine points.

[DarthCaedus]

Others are always going to feel entitled to complete the hardest difficulties at no cost.

This appears to be largely an assumption- possibly just an excuse to be condescending.

People had specific complaints about the system and Turbine is trying to address it. The whole "entitlement" assumption is garbage.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

100% agree

The BEST part about Champions so far has been the OMIGOSH factor when a swarm of them hit the party [obviously, this is likely not near as fun when playing with fewer people- or solo.]

That being said, the non-swarm prevalence of champions [There's usually at least 2 per group of mobs, in my runs] makes them rather too common for any meaningful impact.

So yes, decreasing spawn rate is the way to go.

And yes, insta-killing should be reduced.



But, unfortunately, those players I ran with who were saying "Finally, Elite [in any quest (rather than just specific ones)] is interesting again, and not just a yawn" will be disappointed- as will I.



There's an easy fix, though. I mean, really simple-

Make champions more poignant.
You can even keep most of them rather tame, as they all are now. Generic effects, like damage boosts. That'll make these spawns all the more potent:


Just add in a small chance for any of the following to be a possible boost on a champion:

1: 15% movement speed buff [25% if they're orange named]. 10% increased attack speed. This creates an AHH! SPEED-TYPE CHAMPION! moment.
2: Spawner (Essentially an Ooze Guard/Eidolons effect, but based on NOT attacking it (and cap of 6 spawns, 1 spawning every 10 seconds to cap), creating units of power of one difficulty level lower (IE, an Elite champion would spawn quest-relevant mobs of Hard CR)) This setup allows for a reason to focus on the champion- preventing it from being able to create mobs- but also doesn't severely penalize the players for not focusing on it, by way of not making the spawns as hard as other creatures in the quest, and thus a severe danger.
3: Aura. We've already asked for these.
4: Transformation: Much like heroic orchard, for champions in certain areas, give a chance for them to auto-raise once as spectral versions of themselves.
5: ..well, so forth.


Give us some REALLY JUICY moments, ones interesting enough to have to keep in mind- not just 'Oh, okay, this one is a black wolf, not a grey wolf, and thus has +5 DC on trip attempts.'
Though in honesty, champions aren't even to THAT level of interesting [per individual champion] yet, which is rather disappointing.



As is, champions are quite fun as a concept and an overall element, and I'm enjoying them-
But each champion individually lacks any meaningful impact at the moment, and reducing damage and spawn rate, while definitely necessary, is only going to drive that point so far down that champions'll just end up being 'that slightly bigger ogre we have to hit a few more times'- as they mostly are already, now.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

where's the /sarcasm slash??? Looking up your previous posts now to see your typical outlook...

It's not about to change! Because there's nothing to learn here, there's no tips & knowledge to be handed out about champions. It's all random!

[BD_]

Lowering spawn rate on champions by a bit and lowering the increased damage is like putting a bandaid over a bandaid... It doesn't really fix the problem...

Changing spawn rate and lowering damage a little doesn't fix the any of the numerous problems with champions - among the most prominent are bugs with champion buffs, and the fact that a universal spawn rate (especially on orange mobs) is bad.

Do you really think that having 2/3 or 1/3 of the orange mobs in quests like Belly of the Beast or Haunted Halls is a good thing? Sure in a quest where only "minibosses" are orange 2/3 might be fine but in a quest where 20 orange mobs spawn at the same time in the same place??? Orange mobs are already special - that's why they're orange mobs... IMO minibosses should never be champions and instead should be buffed a bit individually, but that's a different issue altogether...

Unless there was an undocumented change other mobs that really should never be champions (wargs in the rat maze in Tomb of the Tormented for example) can still be champions...

Adjusting spawn rate does nothing for bugs or random rare combinations of buffs that either make no sense or make for mobs that are disproportionately powerful: There's already a screenshot since the lowering of champion spawn rate of a 21k HP CR 29 wolf...

Spawn rate needs to be adjusted on a per quest basis ideally different areas within individual quests should have different spawn rates but... - or at least go through on the worst offenders and set certain mobs to "cannot be a champion" (yes, I realize this would take much more effort to implement than across the board adjustments of spawn rates - it's still the "right" way to do it.)

Were issues with on hit damage buffs and effects like freezing spray addressed? Was the fact that in some cases champions do 5x or more damage than their non champion counterparts while in other cases they do 1/5 the damage addressed?

On a separate note, Second Wind is probably the single biggest offender for the occasional champion mob doing outrageous damage.

Before you do anything else to champions - FIX THE BUGS!!! How are players supposed to form an opinion on champions when they're so incredibly bugged???

[phillymiket]

Dunno what to say to that. I simply dont believe its possible to please every type of player with a system change like this.

some players are always going to want someone to look down on. Others are always going to feel entitled to complete the hardest difficulties at no cost.

there truely is no medium ground for these players. and often they are quite loud in the forums.

No. Can't please everyone.

But you haven't addressed the issue, just stated that there exists unreasonable people who can't be pleased, an obvious fact of life which no one could argue against.

Thing is, some people here seem very reasonable and just want a setting that isn't stupid easy or too hard.

We can address that or just ignore it and lump them in with the "you nerfed my sword" crowd and hope we didn't need those people in our little DDO ecosystem after all, or hope that they adjust.

[BDog77]

Did you want a challenge or not?

Seriously, Thrudh? I'm gonna answer for Monkey-boy, cause he has already answered your question. Maybe you will accept the answer if it comes from another person as well.

He wants challenge, he just thinks that RANDOM challenge is dumb, and quite frankly, not challenging in the slightest anyway. Having read the entire thread, he states this over and over again.

On another note, I'm afraid that introducing Champions to the game in the manner that it was done has irrevocably shattered the already fragile playerbase. I'm like Monkey-boy in that I think random is, at it's core, too punishing. A party can perform perfectly for the 1 hour (or whatever it takes) to get to the final room, and then wipe through no fault of their own, if the random buffs are actually effective at adding challenge to the party. I also think that the way this was implemented, a vast majority of these Champion buff permutations add no challenge at all, making the situations where the stars aligned and a group of Champions spawn with the right buffs to take down the party EVEN MORE punishing. I ran Necro 4 last night with a random pug on EH, and it was the same old rolfstomp as it has always been, as a matter of fact, 3 of us ran ahead and completed most of the quests, even though it was scaled for 6. The Champs didn't even slow the zerg.

Unfortunately, now we have people who are saying they will not return to the game unless Champs are completely removed AND people saying that they will leave the game if Champs are tweaked to matter less (dumbed down, less spawns, etc.) This is the first time since I started playing that there has been such a divide between players on a single issue.

I have played through a lot of DOOOOOOMMM periods in DDO, but this is the first time that I am honestly worried that this game might not even make it as far as maintenance mode. I see it as a horrible sign that just yesterday they said they wanted to let this play out a bit, and then today they have already adjusted the spawn rates and damage. This tells me that yeah, for the first time, it's not all talk, and the number of cancelled subs has started to alarm the Turbine team. And, yeah, this hurts all of us, even the "forum Uber-Leets".

Unfortunately, we can't go back in time and just not release Champions. I wish the Dev team had seen the divide on the Lamma feedback, and thought twice about releasing Champions in the state they were in. Taking it away now solves nothing, I think it has pushed too many people past the breaking point.

Thinking about this is what makes ME sad, Conman, and I think everyone that is left, Uber-Leet to casual, can agree on that.