Monster Champion Feedback

[Monkey-Boy]

You quit as soon as they put in some challenge. Nice.

Champions present zero additional challenge to me. It took me a total of 10 seconds to adapt to this.

But why should I adapt to this?

Random poorly thought out changes annoy me to the point that I don't want to bother with this game anymore.

But I'll keep and open mind and see how this plays out, if I still hate the game after tonight you won't have to worry about me anymore.

[GoldyGopher]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

I have played for the past hour or so, trying to re-hit quests I have run previously.

I only have a small sample of quests mostly Heroic Hard

• Heroic Hard - 8 Quests - 504 Monsters encountered - 39 Champions 7.7% in comparison to well over 30% last night
• Heroic Hard - 8 Quests - 12 Mini-Bosses encountered - 8 Champions 66% - In comparison to dang near 100% last night
• Heroic Hard - No two Champions were the same in terms of buffs in each group.
• Heroic Elite - 2 Quests - 138 Monsters encountered - 21 Champions 15%
• Heroic Elite - 2 Quests - 3 Mini-Bosses encountered - 1 Champion 33%
• All four Champion Mini-Bosses gave chests.

[Dagolar]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

The BEST part about Champions so far has been the OMIGOSH factor when a swarm of them hit the party [obviously, this is likely not near as fun when playing with fewer people- or solo.]

That being said, the non-swarm prevalence of champions [There's usually at least 2 per group of mobs, in my runs] makes them rather too common for any meaningful impact.

So yes, decreasing spawn rate is the way to go.

And yes, insta-killing should be reduced.



But, unfortunately, those players I ran with who were saying "Finally, Elite [in any quest (rather than just specific ones)] is interesting again, and not just a yawn" will be disappointed- as will I.



There's an easy fix, though. I mean, really simple-

Make champions more poignant.
You can even keep most of them rather tame, as they all are now. Generic effects, like damage boosts. That'll make these spawns all the more potent:


Just add in a small chance for any of the following to be a possible boost on a champion:

1: 15% movement speed buff [25% if they're orange named]. 10% increased attack speed. This creates an AHH! SPEED-TYPE CHAMPION! moment.
2: Spawner (Essentially an Ooze Guard/Eidolons effect, but based on NOT attacking it (and cap of 6 spawns, 1 spawning every 10 seconds to cap), creating units of power of one difficulty level lower (IE, an Elite champion would spawn quest-relevant mobs of Hard CR)) This setup allows for a reason to focus on the champion- preventing it from being able to create mobs- but also doesn't severely penalize the players for not focusing on it, by way of not making the spawns as hard as other creatures in the quest, and thus a severe danger.
3: Aura. We've already asked for these.
4: Transformation: Much like heroic orchard, for champions in certain areas, give a chance for them to auto-raise once as spectral versions of themselves.
5: ..well, so forth.


Give us some REALLY JUICY moments, ones interesting enough to have to keep in mind- not just 'Oh, okay, this one is a black wolf, not a grey wolf, and thus has +5 DC on trip attempts.'
Though in honesty, champions aren't even to THAT level of interesting [per individual champion] yet, which is rather disappointing.



As is, champions are quite fun as a concept and an overall element, and I'm enjoying them-
But each champion individually lacks any meaningful impact at the moment, and reducing damage and spawn rate, while definitely necessary, is only going to drive that point so far down that champions'll just end up being 'that slightly bigger ogre we have to hit a few more times'- as they mostly are already, now.

[Monkey-Boy]

Ok trying out imgur as suggested. Didnt have time to get the difficulty window open simultaneously (barely got this off before it died but made it), so hopefully the CR of the mob makes it obvious it was epic hard. Over 21k hp as described. Cheers.

What quest was this and what difficulty?

[RapkintheRanger]

here ya go.... https://myaccount.turbine.com/

Thank you to Impaqt and others...

sadly end date is: 9/7/2015 12:01:00 AM

I hadn't been planning on leaving. Maybe i am overreacting ... ill take a break and see... i just hate that it takes EVEN LONGER to get through levels/fights etc... i find that it takes too long. (i know it is designed that way so we buy pots and tomes and all... but still)


That is the thing for me. i got to the end of |In the Flesh (harbinger chain) Heroic elite solo with a level 17 Toon. All the way to Yaulthoon end fight.. and had that beast down to 20% or so.... so all good.


And mostly the champs were alright. THEN i got 3 or 4 flesh reavers all champs and a beholder champ. The flesh renders surrounded me and boxed me in so i could not move and the beholder anti-magic fielded me... it takes too long to bash the way through the extra HP champs... tedius... cant heal... and wipe.....

And that was not a fun evening.

[Glascanon]

The challenge has ALWAYS been hard.

DDO has ALWAYS been a difficult game and it is STILL a difficult game, starting at the character creation screen. Until Mod 6, DDO was masochistic due to xp debt, imo, not challenging - simply not fun (sometimes). Nostalgic memories of 2006 and 2007, simply polishes the ugly parts of those years.

From what I have seen and read, the only people who think DDO is easy are vets who have accumulated years of quest knowledge, AI anticipatory knowledge, character build knowledge, incredibly rare loot, a dragon's hoard of raid loot, a mountain of plat and/or AS for twinking.

I always find it amusing that so many whine and chomp for better more powerful loot and then come right back and say how easy the game is. Stop playing the game for 6 months, start over with a 28 point build, no loot, no plat, NO Trs, NO EDs, run Elite. Tell me the game is easy. It ain't. If you grind the TRs, if you grind the EDs, if you get the rare loot, **** it, the game should be easier. What the game shoudn't be - is designed around the small percentage of players who want a high end game tailored simply for them and what's in their closet.

Since the game stil has 4 dificulty modes and not just one im sure u can find one to grind ED´s and Epic past lives.

Im saying this game has gotten freaking easy the last updates except the last one.
And i started playing this in 2010.
I was running EH until i got my gear and ED´s to be reddy for elite.
There is nothing wrong in running lower dificultys until your toon is rdy to start the real challenge.

And before this last update came out i was already about to quit the game because EE got boring as hell.

[phillymiket]

I find my statement relevant to your claim. Most of the people who dislike champions and are threatening to quite are using the declining population as some sort of proof that they are right. That makes no sense as Turbine has been making the game easier and easier every update and the population still keeps getting smaller. You cant have it Both ways.

people claim that they are leaving every time something changes that they dont like.

Apples and oranges.

Obviously, it makes no sense that population decline in the past has to do with Champions, unless time-machines are involved and further, any reasonable person I think, would attribute the games declines to the "no challenge" factor, at least in great part. So you are correct.

However, VETS have been leaving because there is no end game and the game has gotten so easy.

The people here saying they are leaving seem to be players who don't even participate in the hardest content.

So it's a different group.

We have to address the needs of Group A that will leave if they have nothing to do (give vets an end game) and ALSO address the needs of Group B that will leave if they have nothing to do (middle players who find Heroic Hard Champions too hard and Normal well, we all know what that is)

The game can't afford to lose either.

And you are wrong, people who threaten to leave on the forums maybe don't... but people most certainly leave. They have already and still are by all accounts.

I'll bet you know DOZENS of people, probably personal friends, who have left DDO because there is nothing to do. I do.

What will happen for Group A will happen for Group B.

EVERYONE needs something to do or they WILL leave.

(and yes, some are saying "I wanna fly through EE like always" and other silly things.. there are reasonable and unreasonable people on both sides)

[Fluffib]

Well you know what, I am entitled to complete these higher difficulties because I can survive.
If you can't survive you are not entitled to get a completion, I am sorry, that entitlement comes with years of garnering skill, not just a a couple of years of coasting along on autopilot.

I am sorry If I hurt your feelings, but at this point someone just had to say it. Casual gamers demanding the game be dumbed down to their level has turned one of the greatest designed games into something akin to Mario party. Newer players treat the monsters and the dungeons with the same respect. Well now, the game just went from Mario party to Shinobi.

TL/DR
I am very sad
Please everyone calm down and DON"T LEAVE
If the challenge is to hard, ask for help we want you to have fun.
Vets can still make this happen for you.

I am sorry I have gone off topic, but I feel it is reverent. And I applaud the vast majority of all players on every side of this discussion for being so civil, thoughtful and productive. I don't want this post not to be, but I feel it should be read by those with the power to do something.

Thanks and have a great day!

I don't know if you are trying to be helpful but you come off as really condescending. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt between the niceties and that English may be your second language.

I'm not sure you realize, your entire argument is based on people wanting to play this game for the challenge, and to get better. To invest in their character and to build something great over time. I'm not sure that you realize there are many people who play video games to relax after a long day's work. If I wanted to work hard after work, I would've stayed at work.

Your being "entitled to complete these higher difficulties" creates a barrier to entry. If you can't enjoy the game without years of experience and past lives, then why bother playing the game? And to that point - please let people tell Turbine how they enjoy the game without getting emotional. I don't know why you are so intent to create separation between you and newer players - maybe so that you can feel better about yourself and the time you've spent playing?

If you want new players to have fun, then let them have fun. Let them voice their opinions, let them join your groups, let them not die. No matter what they do, you'll still have more gear and more past lives and whatever you need to feel good about yourself. Not everyone is like you - not everyone aspires to be the best at this game. Respect that people just want to have fun without thinking the game was "dumbed down" for them.

[DarthCaedus]

Thank you to Impaqt and others...

sadly end date is: 9/7/2015 12:01:00 AM

I hadn't been planning on leaving. Maybe i am overreacting ... ill take a break and see... i just hate that it takes EVEN LONGER to get through levels/fights etc... i find that it takes too long. (i know it is designed that way so we buy pots and tomes and all... but still)


That is the thing for me. i got to the end of |In the Flesh (harbinger chain) Heroic elite solo with a level 17 Toon. All the way to Yaulthoon end fight.. and had that beast down to 20% or so.... so all good.


And mostly the champs were alright. THEN i got 3 or 4 flesh reavers all champs and a beholder champ. The flesh renders surrounded me and boxed me in so i could not move and the beholder anti-magic fielded me... it takes too long to bash the way through the extra HP champs... tedius... cant heal... and wipe.....

And that was not a fun evening.

Yeah charms have always been good in there now you just charm the champs and let them do all the work.

Good luck on your future gaming!

[JOTMON]

Quests WERE indeed already designed to be a challenge at those levels for level appropriate toons.... using gear and enhancement trees from 5 years back. But characters have become much stronger, while quests remained the same.

Tweaking every single quest would take a lot more time than adding champions.

How do you not understand this? Even if you don't agree with the implementation, you must understand why quests are no longer challenges for appropriate level characters.

The quests before Champions were level challenge appropriate for veteran groups.
Uber TR builds and multi epic completionists should find the content easy, that is the whole point of doing many TR's and ER's, to bolster up all the toons abilities.

All these champions are doing is creating a greater divide between elitists and the casual player.
a lot of veterns including yourself have run all of the content many times over and have almost all the best of the best gear.
Regular players don't have this, they were running hard/elite with variable success rates.
Mixed with elite veterns all the quests become easier.
Old quests/raids should not be as much of a challenge at this point until newer harder content comes out unless Champions are adjusted to scale for over level toons in EH/EE content.


So instead of removing things like dungeon scaling from hard/elite, they add random spawn Champions with things like fortification bypass?
Tanks cant tank champions because they get one shotted by Champions.. thanks to Champion fortification bypass ...my 250% fort is meaningless.
How does this slow down solo zergers that are still benefiting from Dungeon scaling vs a party that gets increased champion spawns.

Are they? Are entire parties being wiped out by 1shot champions? Is it truly impossible to handle them? Are you guys changing your tactics at all, or playing exactly the same as before the update?

I am not talking about my completionists or multi TR decked out toons, I expect these to do well in any content and they do.

I am talking about lightly TR'd toons with decent (not exceptional) gear, knowledgeable and versed in the quests .. or otherwise decent Pug group...
I was running an alt in a EE pug Gianthold and getting hits of 500-700 a swing from various Champion mobs/spiders whose non-champion counterparts are hitting for 80-100. the endboss was hitting for 150.
Champions are scarier than the red named bosses. this is screwed up.

[Monkey-Boy]

Champions are scarier than the red named bosses. this is screwed up.

Boggles the mind how people can't get this. We now relax at the boss fights and that's just dumb.

It's also possible that the last DDO dev who was in love with "random" messed things up so much that the entire concept of "random" to me is toxic.

[Keladon]

I find my statement relevant to your claim. Most of the people who dislike champions and are threatening to quite are using the declining population as some sort of proof that they are right. That makes no sense as Turbine has been making the game easier and easier every update and the population still keeps getting smaller. You cant have it Both ways.


people claim that they are leaving every time something changes that they dont like.

the sky is always falling with some folks. I'm certainly not disputing the fact that people talk big. I'm not even debating the fact that the game may actually lose some players because of Champions. But I see this as a market correction. Sometimes you need to shake things up a bit to move forward.



No one knows how many players with will attract, but I can tell you for positive this change has revitalized the game for MANY vets.

Yes, so now the game loses a chunk of players thanks to champions and keeps bleeding players slowly..
It's the vets that don't help this game, it's like your first question about the non-paying player. A new non-paying player is more likely to contribute positively to the playerbase by grouping than a vet who choses to play alone because he want to keep his BB & bonus for not dying, yes that is the attitude of the average vet.

But by all means, keep thinking that a change that costs them players is a good one because it pleases a minority of existing players.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

I've been missing the days where passing on tips and knowledge was needed...helping new and old players to become better. It hasn't been needed for years, and I hope thats about to change!

What's amazing about this game is that there's so much I still don't know, and I look forward to figuring it out in groups (like when I finally get around to playing a monk...and the new builds I'm trying today [arti, druid, bow user]). I really hope these types of changes help DDO grow again!

This may be the case %100 I do not know. But I would like to point out my opinion on this.

A week ago, I would have said this.

Justify, defend, or tweak the Game however you want, but you are losing players in an already to small player base, and will continue to do so as long as there is no challenge anymore Nothing else anyone can say or do is even relevant against the fact that long term customers that have been long term customers because of the challenges presented that, often. would take years to overcome.


I am going to take the hit on this one I bet but I am willing to be the sacrifice to get this out there.
A lot of the long term players and power gamers have really been dancing around the issue to try to keep everyone calm, peaceful and productive, but...

On a purely personal note on the way it feels inside my guts. Yes a lot of people that have top end toons, that have the best gear. have spent years of grinding and improving their characters only to have their accomplishments trivialized by changes that lower difficulty and hand out the same rewards I had to fight for to anyone that shows up.

This hurts my feelings

I had to "grow up" in DDO fighting the most epic monsters, overcoming the most epic challenges in any video game I ever played. The first time my wife saw a beholder in the game she squealed with excitement. The first time I faced Velah I was struck with awe, wonder, and a fire breath that one shotted me. My first trip to Amrath was magical. It was a Place that trully felt like end game.

I learned from the best of the best on Ghallanda, If the names Redgun, Akira, and Isssssatank, mean anything to you then you know what I mean. When I encountered challenges my choices were to seek advice from those that I knew or to find out on my own. At no point ever, and I mean ever, had it even occurred to me to come to the forums to the game and ask for the game to be made easier. But some people did, I guess and the Dev's listened.

The Dev's also listened when we said we wanted more power, more items, bigger quests and more raids. And the power has crept up. They had some guys there that went all loot crazy, I like these guys loot is good, but they got ahead of the "make challenges guys" so there you go, everyone is overpowered.

Right now, as I am typing this, I literally have some tears in my eyes. When I think about the friends that have left over the years to to ever dissolving, end game, and challenge it truly makes me sad. I have made myself very sad typing this post. And having read between the lines in many, many posts by long term players, if you look for it you truly can see the sadness in their posts, the yearning for a time when we stood together or fell alone.

When I started playing the game it was hard, **** hard. You needed gear to be up to par. You needed a good build to be usefull, and you needed to pass a MyDDO check to get into elite raids as an Unknown.

And now today we have a game that is filled with players that have never had to face the challenges that we did. They have never been forced to get better. So they think that after a couple of years of flying through the game like it is nothing somehow has given them some ground to stand on when talking to players that have faced these challenges.
They say "what is going on yesterday I could SOLO epic elite and now I can't. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE GAME"

All those people out there that are saying yeah its not that bad just get a little better, are most likely people that "grew up" in the era of hard gaming here. All it took us was a smoke break and about five minutes to remember how to beat a semi-challenging enemy and we were back at it, a little more cautious, still destroying stuff.

The players that have "grown up" in the new era of DDO have never truly been challenged, and it shows. The second this thing turned on the years of never been given enough challenge to slowly garner the skills to survive and compete is completely apparent.

So I have this to say to all the players that suddenly aren't very good at the game. Gear up, get better, play together or die alone.

You will say but yeah the vets never help us, well we never had to. All you had to do was hold down W and the left mouse button until you got XP.

Now that you will clearly need our help, you can bet your right arm we are there right now jumping up and down saying," whoa whoa there don't get crazy on us. give us a chance to help you get better. We WANT you to get better. That's it, that is where the big disconnect from the power players and newer casual Players is.

The power gamers are trying to say this as nicely as possible. "you need to get better gear and develop better tactics to survive and we are happy to help"

But what the newer players are hearing is "you suck get better nOObz"

And I don't know why!

Yes the game provides some challenge now, yes you will be forced to get better if you want to be a useful party slot member in the higher difficulties.

People are complaining that they should be entitled to complete the hardest difficulties without these obstacles.

Well you know what, I am entitled to complete these higher difficulties because I can survive.
If you can't survive you are not entitled to get a completion, I am sorry, that entitlement comes with years of garnering skill, not just a a couple of years of coasting along on autopilot.

I am sorry If I hurt your feelings, but at this point someone just had to say it. Casual gamers demanding the game be dumbed down to their level has turned one of the greatest designed games into something akin to Mario party. Newer players treat the monsters and the dungeons with the same respect. Well now, the game just went from Mario party to Shinobi.

If you agree with me and don't really want to get involved in this, that's cool, I feel your pain.
If you don't agree with me and feel the need to reply with a bunch of comments designed to make me feel bad, don't bother, I can barely keep from crying thinking about what has happened to the greatest game I have ever played.

I miss you Redgun, the one who taught me how to solo epics when they new.
I miss you Isssssatank inspiring me to be the best tank the server has ever seen, I never hit that one and tanking is dead, but maybe now

But most of all I miss you Akira who gave me the best advice I have ever gotten in this game "Don't just f***ng stand their Phineur Jump around and heal yourself man"


TL/DR
I am very sad
Please everyone calm down and DON"T LEAVE
If the challenge is to hard, ask for help we want you to have fun.
Vets can still make this happen for you.

I am sorry I have gone off topic, but I feel it is reverent. And I applaud the vast majority of all players on every side of this discussion for being so civil, thoughtful and productive. I don't want this post not to be, but I feel it should be read by those with the power to do something.

Thanks and have a great day!

[Thrudh]

We already had champion mobs in quests, they were called bosses.

You really think the whole design of "trash that has no chance of hurting you, might as well invis past 99% of the quest, ooh then ONE tough fight with a boss" is a good design?

The day the powergamers starting calling it "trash", the devs should have thrown in this champion system.

It's a great system... Oh noes! Now you have a (minimal) challenge 10 times in a quest instead of just 1. You say the game is too easy, then you turn around and quit when they make it a little bit harder.

[Keladon]

I've been missing the days where passing on tips and knowledge was needed...helping new and old players to become better. It hasn't been needed for years, and I hope thats about to change!

What's amazing about this game is that there's so much I still don't know, and I look forward to figuring it out in groups (like when I finally get around to playing a monk...and the new builds I'm trying today [arti, druid, bow user]). I really hope these types of changes help DDO grow again!

It's not about to change! Because there's nothing to learn here, there's no tips & knowledge to be handed out about champions. It's all random!

[arkonas]

when you guys do the rewards please take into consideration how often chests will drop etc. if its a rare thing then the number can be a bit lower. if its a common drop make the number higher for the rewards that we want. Make the really good rare items the most expensive of course. they should be a grind to get for the best things. this is a mmo and nothing should be that easy to get either. if people want the goodies they need to jump through a few hoops. since champions are getting reduced i still think the mat number still needs to be high for the best items.

just my opinion of course. the more common items would have a lower set number.

[ddorimble]

And mostly the champs were alright. THEN i got 3 or 4 flesh reavers all champs and a beholder champ. The flesh renders surrounded me and boxed me in so i could not move and the beholder anti-magic fielded me... it takes too long to bash the way through the extra HP champs... tedius... cant heal... and wipe.....

Oh that's horrific...that fight was already a really good challenge at level.

[Holleyz]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

I will not be playing my characters on Orien and Cannith until these champions go away. I will log in my character on Orien and Cannith once a month so as to not have my character make an inactive status on in the guild. I will keep an eye on the forum to see when this BAD IDEA has been removed from the game.
Seriously though to all those out there that thinks the game is too easy just remove your thunderholme gear and your litany gear and run the quests like everyone else does. Or Build a first life adventurer and just use the gear you find in chests like a lot of us do and try to run the quests. Don't pull anything from your shared bank, don't hand off gear and platinum from your other toons. Start a new account with zero-nothing run the quests perma death style but you can rezz if you find a shrine then come back and tell us the game is too easy.

[Impaqt]

Apples and oranges.

Obviously, it makes no sense that population decline in the past has to do with Champions, unless time-machines are involved and further, any reasonable person I think, would attribute the games declines to the "no challenge" factor, at least in great part. So you are correct.

However, VETS have been leaving because there is no end game and the game has gotten so easy.

The people here saying they are leaving seem to be players who don't even participate in the hardest content.

So it's a different group.

We have to address the needs of Group A that will leave if they have nothing to do (give vets an end game) and ALSO address the needs of Group B that will leave if they have nothing to do (middle players who find Heroic Hard Champions too hard and Normal well, we all know what that is)

The game can't afford to lose either.

maybe. maybe not. but its pretty obvious that its not possible to please both groups with the same change is it? and its hard to argue against the fact that turbine has done pretty much all they could over the past couple years to cater to your Group B. So maybe a Change that Benefits Group A is just what the game needs.

Me, I consider myself in between your groups playstyle wise. I've been on board with almost every system change turbine made to date. but its obvious to me that direction hasnt netted the results Turbine expected.

And you are wrong, people who threaten to leave on the forums maybe don't... but people most certainly leave. They have already and still are by all accounts.

I'll bet you know DOZENS of people, probably personal friends, who have left DDO because there is nothing to do. I do.

I do indeed know dozens of people who have left the game over the 8+ years I've been playing. and I can say one thing about them with absolute certainty.

Not a single one left because the game was too hard or because they didnt like a change that added difficulty to the game.

What will happen for Group A will happen for Group B.

EVERYONE needs something to do or they WILL leave.

(and yes, some are saying "I wanna fly through EE like always" and other silly things.. there are reasonable and unreasonable people on both sides)

[Thrudh]

Boggles the mind how people can't get this. We now relax at the boss fights and that's just dumb.

Did you want a challenge or not?

The point of all this TR nonsense is to get more power. Getting more powerful is WAI.

Now Turbine needs to give us a reason to have done all of this.