Monster Champion Feedback

[btolson]

Possibly a big thing that needs to happen here is we get a new class of "nearly-boss monsters" with say green names, to help differentiate between the two types of mini-bosses we have now (traditional Named mini-bosses, and the trend of non-named mini-bosses that can heavily fill portions of a quest like wood woads and drow blademasters).

Mobs that remain orange-names can retain a high % of being champs (still would prefer 50% or less, otherwise why not just make champ status default for them?).

Mobs that are transitioned to green-names can have the same % as regular mobs.

[cru121]

I have only one problem with champions. Chests sometimes spawn underground. Sometimes you're able to loot em. Sometimes not.
It seems that a similar tech spawns little blue bags with collectables. Those usually don't appear underground. Or perhaps they do and noone can notice. Anyway, this would be the one thing I would fix for champs.

[cdemeritt]

Believe it or not, you can't expect endgame content from 7 years ago to still be challenging now. But at least people still run it, that's something you can't say about a lot of games.

Well, yeah, these were bad examples on 2 fronts... yes they are old bosses (the only ones I could think of when writing my post), and they did win and can still win against at level parties (which are rare now). But I more to what I was trying to say, any boss in any quest at level really has no chance of winning... and many can't even slow us down. so yeah, pretty boring.

[Neomarica]

2. I cannot fight less at a time when I just walked into a room with this many in there.

Then you fail at any sort of tactics, BADLY. Except for the cases where you drop down a shaft or get ambushed or something, you can almost always pick up mobs 1 or 2 at a time.

[cdemeritt]

This is where I see the problem in your logic.
It is Optional already, you may run the quests on Casual or Normal if you do not want to encounter Champions. Champions only appear on Hard or Elite Settings.

But... But... But... my Bravery Bonus.... The game is too grindy to run "normal"... Even Running hard... you vets just want to keep the best loot for yourselves, and keep us out of the club.... /sarcasm

[doucefeuille]

• I have read a number of players complaining about being one shot, happened to me once, I was not wearing a fortification item in a level 33 quest my bad, but other have complained it happens all the time. Yet I don't see much detail in those complaints. I would enjoy knowing where this is happening so I can go try it out, beyond Terminal Delirium which I dislike anyways for other reasons.

some details was done for the one-shoot :
1/one shoot in threnal "missing expedition" by the first encounter, invisible random behind a rock deal between 260-273 frost damage each time (damage received with bard chant and ranger energy resist buff and/or pot => we leave after some try and I bet that there is a chance to do this quest if such CM is not here, just bad luck:bad game).
2/ In a small problem a crown fire elemental deal 400+ damage, maybe a crit because we have just suffer it once, but it's still too high in lvl 5 quest.
3/ Other one-shoot was done previously by a random repop of a rusty in "the rescue" threnal but too surprised it was a first encounter with CM so we do not understand what has happened to us to note the stat of the damaged.

[gypsythief]

• I have read a number of players complaining about being one shot, happened to me once, I was not wearing a fortification item in a level 33 quest my bad, but other have complained it happens all the time. Yet I don't see much detail in those complaints. I would enjoy knowing where this is happening so I can go try it out, beyond Terminal Delirium which I dislike anyways for other reasons.

Try Spawn of Whisperdoom, a level 4 quest. I met this guy in there:



Notice the effect says "You ignore enemy fortification"

At level 6, when I was doing this, I had managed to get 100% fortification on a masterful craftsmanship robe. And it was useless, because this guy, and many others like him, can ignore it. Not bypass 5%, or 10%, or 25%, but ignore the whole lot, and wack me with a nice triple-crit-bang-I'm-dead.

Oh, I could try to cast a heal in there, but at level 6 I've only got 20-ish concentration, and these mobs are wacking me for 40 odd three times in a row: Smack, smack, smack: dead.

Heck, they do it so fast, not even the Paladin I was in there with had time to get a lay on hands on me. And there is no point saying I should let the Paladin grab agro, as many of these just rush straight up to me the instant they come around the corner and smack, smack, smack: dead

So maybe the champions are not strictly one-shotting players, but it's darned well as good as. This is a huge problem with them. There is no time to react. There is no time to plan. There is no time to do anything once one of them has you in its sights.

You can not play smarter, because you do not know its coming.

You can not be more careful, because you do not know its coming.

You can not take a stronger group, because you do not know its coming.

You can not use tactics, because you do not know its coming.

All you can do is pray the random number generator is going to be kind to you in this quest and for once you might, just might, make it through without smack, smack, smack: dead.

^^And this applies equally to many of the casters also.

(P.S. GoldyGopher: this rant is not aimed at you, but at the implementation of the Champions. Your quote just seemed a good intro...)

[Stonemerge]

This is where I see the problem in your logic.
It is Optional already, you may run the quests on Casual or Normal if you do not want to encounter Champions. Champions only appear on Hard or Elite Settings.

wrong, it is optional for YOU to play higher level quests, if you think the ones at level are too easy.

[Seikojin]

I see champions as legendary monster template beasties. So they could be anything and have special abilities, like spell casting or breath weapons.

So far, I have not seen a champion I haven't liked. When I tr, I try to do a one and done run, and so far, lvl's 1-3 (catacombs) has no problem with its champs (even WW is fine)..

I really think the current champ system is very good. I think everyone should compile a list of buffs and discuss them and where they think they should belong.

[JOTMON]

I can understand having a scaling mob/ champion system when players are running over level.. like level 27's running von3 on EH.. a level 20 quest

I don't understand adding champions to hard/elite "at level" runs.
The quests were already designed to be a challenge at those levels for level appropriate toons.
If the quest was not a challenge for at level players then the quest design itself needed tweaking.


I am quite familiar with EH/EE soloing/short-manning do it all the time.. especially XP runs wher I am 5-6 levels over the raid.. Von's, Sands, .. these were good xp runs and quick on a over level toon.
Level 16-28 Elite Shroud runs.. I always saw this as an flawed game issue, dragging through lowbies to get shards/ingredients with essentially no-fail mentality.
I can see this type of behavior wanting to be curbed..

I could understand adding Champions and having that % scale based on the level difference and number of over level toons.. this would add challenge to those OP players blowing through lower level content.
I think it would also encourage more at level runs vs take a bunch of over level toons to get it done quick.

I see a lot of iconic heroes, at level 15 going back and blowing through Korthos and other low level content for favor.. xp is of no concern, mobs are no challenge.. Champions still have no value here.
I even go back and run low level content to knock out favor for quests I couldn't bother to run because ther was no party at the time and the quest is long, poor xp .. or just basically sucks..
High level toon.. boom. boom.. done... favor .. check.. move on..

Now at level champions would not greatly slow down way over level toons, but toons that are still within xp range encountering champions.. that is more challenging and likely the zone you want to target.

The one-shot champion that instills more fear than the red-named boss .. this is an issue... Champions should not be more powerful than the boss of the same quest.

The number of champions is over the top and just screws over at level parties. Endgame players doing old content will still blow through it, just gripe about one shot kills. .rez , carry on.

At level parties are getting wiped with no chance of survival.. unless they have a rez piker hanging back at the beginning .. and that is no way to promote gameplay.
It should be extremely challenging, but no 1shot party wipes.. a death from a mistake or poor choice of action that resulted in death.. that can be adjusted in playstyle, strategy, tactics... one-shots.. not so much.
Intimi-tanks, cant get close to the champions due to one-shot potential.. whats the point of tanks if you cant heal them through a mob beating.. may as well all be kiting with ranged attacks playing keep-a-way.

HP meat-sacks are annoying and resource intensive, but they are manageable.. one-shotters are bad and will just promote players to use cheese tactics or not play.

[TrinityTurtle]

Try Spawn of Whisperdoom, a level 4 quest. I met this guy in there:

You can not play smarter, because you do not know its coming.

You can not be more careful, because you do not know its coming.

You can not take a stronger group, because you do not know its coming.

You can not use tactics, because you do not know its coming.

What I really want to know is...how do you not know it's coming when you see the floaty glowy crown thing? Dre and I took on Champions the other day, and we got our rears kicked but good a time or two, but we always had time to look at the mobs, see the crowns, and prepare. And work out a tactic or two to try. And after getting our rears kicked but good, we regrouped, figured out what we did wrong, and kicked back.

Consider driving. The drunks, exhausted, ill, and just plain careless or stupid drivers don't come with a nice little visual label. And you can certainly drive smartly and defensively even though you don't know which of those cars around you holds the danger. Same thing here, you can treat all mobs with a bit more respect and have a tactic ready in your mind, whether it's crowd control, trip, paralysis, instakills (and yes, some do work, they can be assassinated and goup de grace I know for fact, and figure some casters have good enough dcs out there but that part is speculation on my part), kiting, range, or environment usage.

[bbqzor]

I had managed to get 100% fortification on a masterful craftsmanship robe. And it was useless, because this guy, and many others like him, can ignore it. Not bypass 5%, or 10%, or 25%, but ignore the whole lot

This. x1000. Ive said plenty of times, anything that wholly bypasses player defenses/effort/builds/characters/etc is essentially unacceptable.

The solution is to make it similar to the "rogue mob" ability, have it bypass its CR in fort. Have the champion buff stack with rogue mobs. So champion rog mobs might ignore a lot or all of fort, but not every single champ with that buff. Or have it ignore quest level x 2 in fort or something. But make it a scalar formula, one we can either work against (extra fort swaps at higher levels when thats available) or at least roll the dice on (he might get lucky, he might not, but we have a chance for our efforts to function).

As it stands, you either slow down and inspect everything first, or just zerg through it and hope you dont lose the lottery. I would prefer it to be where you can wade in and adjust as the fight goes, you know, tactically. Anything which just circumvents player mechanics (from the one-shot second wind damage, to this total fort bypass, to silly attacks with no saves like enchanter lightning sphere in fleshmakers) are NOT constructive to a fun and long lived game life.

[doucefeuille]

I can understand having a scaling mob/ champion system when players are running over level.. like level 27's running von3 on EH.. a level 20 quest

I don't understand adding champions to hard/elite at level runs.
The quests were already designed to be a challenge at those levels for level appropriate toons.
If the quest was not a challenge for at level players then the quest design itself needed tweaking.


I am quite familiar with EH/EE soloing/short-manning do it all the time.. especially XP runs wher I am 5-6 levels over the raid.. Von's, Sands, .. these were good xp runs and quick on a over level toon.
Level 16-28 Elite Shroud runs.. I always saw this as an flawed game issue, dragging through lowbies to get shards/ingredients with essentially no-fail mentality.
I can see this type of behavior wanting to be curbed..

I could understand adding Champions and having that % scale based on the level difference and number of over level toons.. this would add challenge to those OP players blowing through lower level content.
I think it would also encourage more at level runs vs take a bunch of over level toons to get it done quick.

I see a lot of iconic heroes, at level 15 going back and blowing through Korthos and other low level content for favor.. xp is of no concern, mobs are no challenge.. Champions still have no value here.
I even go back and run low level content to knock out favor for quests I couldn't bother to run because ther was no party at the time and the quest is long, poor xp .. or just basically sucks..
High level toon.. boom. boom.. done... favor .. check.. move on..

Now at level champions would not greatly slow down way over level toons, but toons that are still within xp range encountering champions.. that is more challenging and likely the zone you want to target.

The one-shot champion that instills more fear than the red-named boss .. this is an issue... Champions should not be more powerful than the boss of the same quest.

The number of champions is over the top and just screws over at level parties. Endgame players doing old content will still blow through it, just gripe about one shot kills. .rez , carry on.

At level parties are getting wiped with no chance of survival.. unless they have a rez piker hanging back at the beginning .. and that is no way to promote gameplay.
It should be extremely challenging, but no 1shot party wipes.. a death from a mistake or poor choice of action that resulted in death.. that can be adjusted in playstyle, strategy, tactics... one-shots.. not so much.
Intimi-tanks, cant get close to the champions due to one-shot potential.. whats the point of tanks if you cant heal them through a mob beating.. may as well all be kiting with ranged attacks playing keep-a-way.

HP meat-sacks are annoying and resource intensive, but they are manageable.. one-shotters are bad and will just promote players to use cheese tactics or not play.

Many thanks.... many many thanks

[Stonemerge]

But... But... But... my Bravery Bonus.... The game is too grindy to run "normal"... Even Running hard... you vets just want to keep the best loot for yourselves, and keep us out of the club.... /s

I dont care for any loot-clubs - thats the twisted mind of the wanna-be-ubers.
I want the same xp and the same difficulty i was running before U24, being able to solo without random deaths. I bought a greater tome of xp for a good reason. Make this **** optional - let them die if they want to 20 times in a quest - and let me do my alloptionals-runs with the same diff it was before.
How i play a game i pay money for is not the concern of some selfish people, who think their way is the only way acceptable.

[poltt48]

I like idea of champion mobs but I think some classes get hurt a lot more then others with them. Pale masters who rely on insta death and really have no damage or not enough mana to cast to many damage spells are hurt a lot when add 5 to 6 mobs per quest with immunity to insta kill. Monks, rogues, and bards who are relying on dodge, displace, and concealment to survive with very little or no prr.(Know my rogue with 6 divine past lives still only has 34 prr.) Even 1 mob with true seeing means they are dead pretty much have no chance especially for mobs that do increased damage on top of true seeing. Yes being champion does not protect you from CC but there are mobs immune to CC that can get a crown in quests witch really hurts too. As for number of champion mobs I found out playing my different toons that low level quests seem to have a lot less of them. Did whole sorrow dusk quest line on one my low level guys and ran into maybe 30 total champions first 2 quests did not have a single champion mob on heroic elite. But run a epic elite necro quest and half mobs are champion. Even worst run epic elite HH and every single mob is champion and had the caster subboss before dopliganger actually have 1 million hp in it. Quests that spawn waves have about half of every wave with crowns for some reason. Worst being mirror room in new delirium. I know that quest suppose to be hard but was in there with 6 triple completionists with triple epic completionist also in best gear in the game and we had 123 death in that mirror room alone cause more then half the mobs in every wave where champions.

[JOTMON]

Another thing I don't understand..' Dungeon Scaling'..

Why do we still have dungeon scaling.. especially for hard/elite.. get rid of this.

You go to all the trouble of screwing around with champions for hard/elite and you completely ignore Dungeon scaling ??

[Spoonwelder]

Greetings!

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

Salutations!

I haven't read all the posts since your post...I have one comment though - when you look at the hires also look at NPCs in protect quests.....starting at the low quests I had trouble in both Cannith Crystal and Baudry's. Cannith Crystal was always kinda flimsy but losing the box to a few amped up champions in Baudry where normally it is fairly easy is annoying especially with the clock you have to run down again.

I expect problems in Sharn(Stand your Ground and Bookbinder), WW-Arlos, Fens-Last Stand etc.......

Oh and what are the chances a balista gets a crown in Storm the Beaches....that would be fun (not)....oops I am letting my 90s show.

[Impaqt]

YOU think the game is too easy, so YOU should be able to have champions in quests. No need to force them upon everyone.

um.. actually, We(The players) didnt put the champions in. We didnt even really ask for em. The devs put them in so perhaps the devs also feel the game had gotten too easy?

The DDO devs are definitely NOT in the habit of putting whatever a few folks on the forms ask for into the game.

[Yalinaa]

As I said before whole concept is a fail. The uber players wanted a challenge. Devs implemented something they thought it will provide some challenge. What happened? Like... targeting those ubers with a big, big stone, but that stone does zero damage on them, they recognize it ofc, like "what was that, a fly, or a mosquito?" - but the stone drops down and kills some casual players around... Yeah, demigods remain demigods, dear devs, but those poor first lifer and other non-uber guys... they got some nasty things in their face, haha. This is where the laziness leads you... Forget this champ stupidity, and give us a proper challenge via Mythic/Hardcore/Nightmare difficulty. If you want to mess with the noobs, it's ok, but give some challenge to the demigods as well. Still no end game hurts more, than this parody you are doing lately.

[Impaqt]

some details was done for the one-shoot :
1/one shoot in threnal "missing expedition" by the first encounter, invisible random behind a rock deal between 260-273 frost damage each time (damage received with bard chant and ranger energy resist buff and/or pot => we leave after some try and I bet that there is a chance to do this quest if such CM is not here, just bad luck:bad game).

Ice Flenser Polar Ray damage has been out of whack for quite some time. I was one shotted by those guys BEFORE champions came out.

I believe something got set up incorrectly when the devs started giving mobs Maximize and Spell Power. I bug reported it a few times, but nothing ever came of it so I assumed it was WAI.

Ice Flenser damage should be looked at again.