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  1. #1261
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-0cturn View Post
    EDIT: Hirelings: I think a flat damage reduction for hirelings would be the cheap and dirty way. The best thing would be to update the hires to the new enchantments and if they do not already get the improved PRR/MRR they should.
    This is gonna be tough. A flat reduction is fine against champions but if you do that then they are basically unkillable by normal mobs. I wonder if they could give them a flat DR to JUST champions? The problem then is they work against high dps champions but then become immune to low dps champions. Not all champions do super high DPS.

    Toons - Ziffin / Hirtz / Mheka / Duskh
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  2. #1262

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehenry03 View Post
    This is gonna be tough. A flat reduction is fine against champions but if you do that then they are basically unkillable by normal mobs. I wonder if they could give them a flat DR to JUST champions? The problem then is they work against high dps champions but then become immune to low dps champions. Not all champions do super high DPS.
    The other problem is NPCs we have to protect or the quest fails. They're in the same boat as hirelings: champion chew toys.

  3. #1263
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    They could have redesigned the dungeons to have fewer but more powerful monsters with vicious combinations which took teamwork to defeat. They could've given the enemy melee a root for goodness sake. But they did the global and I mean GLOBAL "crown me" system. The laziest, simplest way to make it "harder" from a programming and design standpoint.
    I don't want DDO to become WoW where every mob takes 5 minutes to kill. I like zerging if I feel like it which is what makes DDO so much fun for me. Champs are NOT way OP. Lots of people including myself do just fine against them. Yes I have SOME better gear but not so much better skill and I still kill most just fine. I run into an oocasional one with lots of hp's and that's it.

    No DO NOT reduce the monster count and make mobs have higher HP's PLZ.

    Work with Champions it is fleshing out into a good idea

    Toons - Ziffin / Hirtz / Mheka / Duskh
    Guild - High Lords of Malkier
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  4. #1264
    Community Member situationalWizzy's Avatar
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    Default Keep Champs but slight modification needed

    The idea of champs is a good one but the 1 shot kill on a reasonably well built toon that has good fortification and damage mitigation is too extreme. Understand the devs are looking at this and thanks in advanced for even well drilled EE veterans might dread having to handle a group of 4 to 5 one shot killers champions.

    However dear dev please do not hard nerf the champs especially given the player power creep in enhancements and gears in update 23. It's not intended that EE contents are steamrolled or zerged for it should be the epitome of dungeon challenges.

    On heroic contents at lower levels my thoughts are do away with champions since this is where most new players comes in and need to come to grasps with dungeon questing. At which levels it should be I do not have any studies on it but at least Korthos area should be spared and perhaps the level 2s and 3s in the harbor/marketplace area.

  5. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Correct. Reports of non-extreme challenge quests "one shotting" players are concerning and we are looking into them, so specifics would be great. We can also adjust champion damage output dividing my melee, ranged, and spell so if spells (as an example) are too severe we can adjust that separately.

    Sev~
    It's (being one-shotted) happened to me in various Elite quests both Heroic & Epic - however only when I've first been made Helpless from a Stun etc. I can see how that would be frustrating if solo, fortunately I play this MMO in a group setting - and getting one-shot by an uber mob while I'm Helpless seems rather appropriate.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  6. #1266
    DDO Trivia Champion alancarp's Avatar
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    Default Yes, too *many* chests sometimes as well

    While I really appreciate the extra loot, this was kinda ridiculous: a vampire room in Litany of the Dead on Hard mode (High Priest section) in which 4 vampires appeared. All were Champions; all dropped chests. I'm probably 2/3rds through this section of the dungeon and this makes 7 chests to drop here. I could imagine this happening, but clearly should only be from the equivalent of rolling 40 on a 2d20 about 4 times in a row.

    Nice festivult coin farming, though


  7. #1267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    Yes, It was stupid then as it is stupid now. We were just starting to get to some semblance of reality when this nonsense came. And no, running around in circles is not fun.

    Running around in circles is the stupidest lowest form of gameplay. You're forced to do it, because it is the only stupid mechanic this game truly provides now, once again. Bonetown has a more imaginative compelling combat system now.

    And they refuse to remove it. Fly is a third level spell. They nipped that one in the bud. But all the persistent AoE spells made it in. And the champion dumdums will still run back and forth between the blades till they die.

    What thought provoking gameplay . . . What imagination must be used to still be using the same strategy from 8 years ago! The game was starting a process where one could move away from this strategy, now we're rushing back to it. Great, will the new endgame look like the Hippodrome?

    They could have redesigned the dungeons to have fewer but more powerful monsters with vicious combinations which took teamwork to defeat. They could've given the enemy melee a root for goodness sake. But they did the global and I mean GLOBAL "crown me" system. The laziest, simplest way to make it "harder" from a programming and design standpoint.

    What really upsets me is that this might very well be the amount of effort I can expect from the DDO team in the future.

    This is it right here for me. There is absolutely infinite potential to make challenging monsters and encounters with all of the content from D&D. There is just so much to work with. What we get is you just slapping a crown on a mob and calling it "immersive combat" and "more challenging". That's our reward for devoted VIP's, game testers, feedbackers and anyone else that helps to provide positive feedback and ideas. It's a feeble and lame attempt. It's as lame as the bugs that go YEARS without addressing to the point of catastrophic proportions.

  8. #1268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehenry03 View Post
    The people that are actually recording how many mobs they are fighting and how many of those mobs are champions...THOSE are the ones helping the dev's.
    You know why most people don't tell the devs percentages? And why most people don't bother with details of which quest and which monster? Because the developers programmed champions so people probably think that the developers should already know these things! And it's a reasonable thing to think! I frankly can't imagine how, if they write that 10% of trash mobs that spawn are champions there could be any other number besides 10%. It kind of boggles my mind, actually. I mean these are straight numbers. The same with damage...

  9. #1269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehenry03 View Post
    And PLEASE be accurate. People would have to be brain dead to think every ratio given so far is accurate. You see a mob of champs and they kill you...you get ****ed and jump in here and complain. Just stop.

    Get an ACCURATE idea. Its not hard to do. Be honest so the Dev's can do this right. Give false information and they know your just lying to be an ass and they will ignore you.
    I can actually be 100% accurate. I have not run a quest without all orange named being champions. I expect I've been a bit unlucky, but I've been waiting patiently to see my first orange named non champ. As a disclaimer, I will say I have NOT been running dungeons with a lot of orange named MOBs, just continuing what I was doing pre update.

  10. #1270
    Community Member Connman's Avatar
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    Default I am happy with whatever it takes to keep the champions.

    I really like the champions overall. I am open to whatever it takes to keep the champions:

    If people want the spawn rate reduced and the damage modifiers adjusted that is cool with me.
    If people absolutely require check boxes, that is cool with me, as long as you include a champions only box.
    If people want the spawn rate increased and the damage increased, I am OK with that as well.
    If people think you need to lower drop rates of the chests sure go ahead.
    If people think you need to increase the drop rates on chests, well smack them, they're nuts.

    Whatever it takes.

    I personally am having no problems with them at all. They have slowed me down a little, but not much. The one major change I made, I put trip back on my hot bar. I am not an average player, I have intimate knowledge of just about every dungeon in this game. This gives me a great advantage over a lot of more casual players. So any increase in challenge makes me happy. But we don't need to alienate too many players.

    Regarding the crown that is above them, I want that. You were talking about a rewards system, how about if you kill x of these guys you get a little gold crown clickie that works like the phiarlan pendant of time, you click it and can run around town with your little crown, but when you step into a dungeon the "buff" goes away. Heck I know people hate PVP and all but It would be awesome if it hit us with the same random buffs for the pvp pit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post

    ~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

    Sev~
    On the hires, diplomacy is a cleric in class skill, could you maybe have it so when we set hireling classes that have diplomacy on the defense setting, they just hang back and throw heals as needed and when they start to draw any type of agro instead of fighting back they start spamming diplomacy.

    I mean that is what I did lots as a cleric, situation looks grim you make a choice, "sorry I will res you in a sec wizard"

    Thanks and have a great day.

    PS. Sins of Attrition is my absolute favorite quest, I love the dungeon layout and the fact it is like running a gauntlet the whole way there. So if the guys who worked on that quest are still there pat them on the back for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    Now you aren't a cookie cuttter, you are a character with unique gear and layouts and not everyone has the same mass produced epic ethereal bracers from the ghostly beholder factory.

  11. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by alancarp View Post
    While I really appreciate the extra loot, this was kinda ridiculous: a vampire room in Litany of the Dead on Hard mode (High Priest section) in which 4 vampires appeared. All were Champions; all dropped chests. I'm probably 2/3rds through this section of the dungeon and this makes 7 chests to drop here. I could imagine this happening, but clearly should only be from the equivalent of rolling 40 on a 2d20 about 4 times in a row.

    Nice festivult coin farming, though

    On the other hand there are times there are zero chests.

  12. #1272
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D_Rock- View Post
    so go do quests that are better XP/min like i said before in my post. and quit wasting time with xtreme dungeons???
    I was fine with the "extreme dungeons" before. it's wasting time now to spend 90 min and 20 sp pots in one quest. I want variety not von 3 over and over as i'm not a min maxer on xp. Messing up EE putting in double adrenaline (or whatever the damage buff really named) isn't a challenge it's stupid. You can't not get hit without blue (true seeing), crit protection (fort bypass) and hence your smuching non heavy armor classes. I'm sure that's not the intent but that's the only ones getting good amount of prr.

    I was having fun before and running EE before the prr pass so i should be able to continue the same. I don't like the change, and i'm voicing my opinion about it. If they want a harder level, add champoin level (or toggle) and let people do that for more xp/loot whatever. EE was good for us before. HE was fine for TR solo with hireling before.

    as for quests. house of broken chains. 17 champions out of 65 kills. lost in swamp end room with wave of vine horrors/ele 6 out of 7 champions on 2nd to last wave.

    mask of deception - one champion + per pack of mobs (usually 4).
    Member of "Guild of the Black Dragons" & "Swords of the Light" on Sarlona. Proud "Last" member of Caffeine - we aint stragicially savy.
    Kilthar-Tharr-Delkanthalus-Carissa-Mirasina-Ktara-Imara-Thistle-Tharissa-Robothar-Minithar-Miriella-Tharnessa-Tharisa

  13. #1273
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDog77 View Post
    I can actually be 100% accurate. I have not run a quest without all orange named being champions. I expect I've been a bit unlucky, but I've been waiting patiently to see my first orange named non champ. As a disclaimer, I will say I have NOT been running dungeons with a lot of orange named MOBs, just continuing what I was doing pre update.
    Yeah 90% of the oj mobs for me have been champions.

    Toons - Ziffin / Hirtz / Mheka / Duskh
    Guild - High Lords of Malkier
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  14. #1274
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connman View Post
    I really like the champions overall. I am open to whatever it takes to keep the champions:

    If people want the spawn rate reduced and the damage modifiers adjusted that is cool with me.
    If people absolutely require check boxes, that is cool with me, as long as you include a champions only box.
    If people want the spawn rate increased and the damage increased, I am OK with that as well.
    If people think you need to lower drop rates of the chests sure go ahead.
    If people think you need to increase the drop rates on chests, well smack them, they're nuts.

    Whatever it takes.

    I personally am having no problems with them at all. They have slowed me down a little, but not much. The one major change I made, I put trip back on my hot bar. I am not an average player, I have intimate knowledge of just about every dungeon in this game. This gives me a great advantage over a lot of more casual players. So any increase in challenge makes me happy. But we don't need to alienate too many players.

    Regarding the crown that is above them, I want that. You were talking about a rewards system, how about if you kill x of these guys you get a little gold crown clickie that works like the phiarlan pendant of time, you click it and can run around town with your little crown, but when you step into a dungeon the "buff" goes away. Heck I know people hate PVP and all but It would be awesome if it hit us with the same random buffs for the pvp pit.




    On the hires, diplomacy is a cleric in class skill, could you maybe have it so when we set hireling classes that have diplomacy on the defense setting, they just hang back and throw heals as needed and when they start to draw any type of agro instead of fighting back they start spamming diplomacy.

    I mean that is what I did lots as a cleric, situation looks grim you make a choice, "sorry I will res you in a sec wizard"

    Thanks and have a great day.

    PS. Sins of Attrition is my absolute favorite quest, I love the dungeon layout and the fact it is like running a gauntlet the whole way there. So if the guys who worked on that quest are still there pat them on the back for me.
    great post & great idea, +1

  15. #1275
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehenry03 View Post
    I don't want DDO to become WoW where every mob takes 5 minutes to kill. I like zerging if I feel like it which is what makes DDO so much fun for me. Champs are NOT way OP. Lots of people including myself do just fine against them. Yes I have SOME better gear but not so much better skill and I still kill most just fine. I run into an oocasional one with lots of hp's and that's it.

    No DO NOT reduce the monster count and make mobs have higher HP's PLZ.

    Work with Champions it is fleshing out into a good idea
    champs on eh are not way op. those are fine. run breaking the ranks EE and see that trainwreck now.
    Member of "Guild of the Black Dragons" & "Swords of the Light" on Sarlona. Proud "Last" member of Caffeine - we aint stragicially savy.
    Kilthar-Tharr-Delkanthalus-Carissa-Mirasina-Ktara-Imara-Thistle-Tharissa-Robothar-Minithar-Miriella-Tharnessa-Tharisa

  16. #1276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Extreme challenge dungeons are extreme. That adventure is there to push you to the limit to find out ways to beat it if you up the difficulty. We wouldn't want to reflexively change champions based on extreme challenge dungeons meant to push parties to the limit.

    Sev~
    About to try sneaking up on the mirror mobs and killing them one by one while they attack the reflection.
    Not sure if it will work.

  17. #1277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Greetings!

    We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

    ~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

    ~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

    We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

    ~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

    ~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

    Sev~
    Overall these changes sound wise to me.


    Frankly I don't know about hires, but summons just are not good enough at end game anymore.
    Could we just Buff the Hires with more PPR/MMR?
    They are fragile anyway and don't usually do nearly enough damage compared to players, resulting in scaling not worth the hire in many cases. An overall buff would be appropriate and easier?

  18. #1278
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    Default What Champions have done for me...

    My wife and I have been playing and been VIP's for about a year.
    We recently purchased Shadowfell & Menace on sale- Nice!
    Our newest characters, we took a while to find our favorite classes and play style, are approaching Lvl 19 (for the first time).
    We have completed every quest so far on Elite (just the two of us)..........until now.
    Champions have effectively ended our Elite streak and I find myself, for the first time in a while, not wanting to log in and play.
    Will I stick around until this gets sorted out? Probably. Maybe. I don't know...

  19. #1279
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    ~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

    Sev~
    Whetever you do here, please don't forget the lessons learned from the Blitz: making party members compete for kills is a bad thing! If there is to be a Token (or whatever) reward for Champions, give it to the whole party - I'd rather see pikers/multi-boxers benefit than resurrect the "you stole my kill!" nonsense.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  20. #1280
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    Default Gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

    We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

    Thanks!
    I have been playing for more than 3 years. I finally got the basics of the game and have become a steady, competent player, but not an elite like some players I have seen. I am retired and this was a nice hobby that I enjoyed playing. I just don't understand how to build and equip the character to make her the monster she needs to be to overcome the difficulty presented by the champion. I spent lots of hours playing would die about 2 or 3 times a week which is acceptable. Now I am dying 2-3 times per quest. Two hits by a champion and I am done. I would like to see the devs add two more quest difficulties, casual, normal, hard, elite and champion hard and champion elite, if the elite players (about 10%) want that. Me, I am done and will not be playing unless they get rid of the champions or tone them down about 90%. thank DDO for many pleasurable hours spent playing the game. I have found a P2P mmorpg that looks like a lot of fun.

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