Monster Champion Feedback

[rikkitikkitarvi]

Played with the monster champions - Hate it as is!

-I believe that they have too many spawning. How many champions can there be. "Everyone can be super, and when everyone's super then no one will be"

Make the spawning as follows:

Max spawns are
- 1xQuest LVL - Hard
- 2xQuest LVL -Elite

or just on Elite.

I liked hard difficulty normal is to easy, and elite on higher levels is too difficult. (Or too long.

In addition was completing Korthos quests and having champions spawn was manageable until you end up with more than a couple in a mob, then it just gets crazy for the level. I think that as you level champions may become a little more manageable.

I also completed EH A small problem. Didn't really have an issue with the champions there except that the quest took about twice as long to finish. They just have way too many HP and making the quests take twice as long does not make the quest more fun. I would like a difficulty level between Normal and what is currently Hard, lets call it 'Hard Pre-update"

Maybe they need to make difficulty levels of Casual, Normal, Hard (No champions), Hard -C (Hard with Champions) and Elite (With Champions)
Players running on normal difficulty have it fairly easy with Damage reduction scaling (I never rally worried about damage types in normal because I always did enough damage even with the reduction), when going from normal to hard it was a learning curve to get past the damage reduction, now people have to deal with Champions at the same time. Too much too soon.

[haulindonkey]

Obviously you don't know what you are talking about, and clearly haven't read the posts from most of us. I'll leave it at that.

Nope, epic fail, man. I have read the posts and I'm 100% with Ironforge_Clan on this portion (with important section bolded):

[SNIP]If the game gets harder then that is a good thing. Is their new system "perfect" no but when have they ever rolled out something that didn't need to be tweaked/hotfixed? It will get fixed eventually and if people can't wait for that then too **** bad. Personally the challenge is very welcoming and imho only needs a few very minor tweaks.

Us longtimers and vets are importnt to the game and we have ridden out carp storms before. Those who can't ride out a minor and temporary drizzle of carp are not significant to the survival and well-being of the game. They'd leave for just about anything - like minor nerfs to overpowered pallies and other FOTMs.

[Aletys]

because a checkbox would completely throw off the balance of the game. you would literally have people side by side playing completely different games.

Ah, you have just admitted it. Post-U24 is an entirely different game than pre-U24. That's what has most folks upset. It's not the same game.

That said, why do you care? Play the game you want, let others play the game they want.

Or, are you thinking that the game would allow folks in the same party to enter with different checkmarks? I very much doubt that ... first player to enter sets the difficulty, etc. Everyone else in party plays the same game.

[Jomee]

That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

Sev~

Then what was the spawn rate set at if it's going to drop by ~40% ?

[Sehenry03]

Honestly, I see it as the best solution. It isn't hurting anyone, aside from the coders who have to make it happen. Why does it make players angry? If you want champions, just check the box. How does it hurt anyone if someone would rather not deal with champions?

The argument of "if there was a checkbox, no one would play it" is fundamentally flawed. For example, I would check the box for traps every time if I could get the extra xp for ingenous debilitation, and I'd probably still check it if I had a high HP build or could otherwise reasonably expect to survive the traps if unchecking the trap option resulted in an XP penalty. Risk/reward is the key issue. As of now, there is no risk/reward system for champions. My xp/min is much greater on EN now, so I've just been running EN until I get bored and find something else to do. I broke out the Xbox this evening and dusted off my copy of Fallout:New Vegas. What an awesome game!

I agree with this completely. So if we have a check box then NOT having it checked means you get less favor while having it checked means you get normal elite favor. Not checking it means less xp while checking it means normal xp from elite quest

[Kaytis]

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

Increase the XP for champions. If you are going to increase the time it takes to play a quest, I want an increase in XP. Thanks.

[Aletys]

I'd be okay with a button as long as it did provide a noticeable amount of more xp and more loot (or they could LOWER xp from today's numbers if you choose to go in without champions). Either is fine with me.

Just a checkbox with no change to xp and/or loot is a terrible idea. Might as well put a checkbox in for the boss too.

I agree, if you're willing to play with champions, you should get a better reward. More xp, better chance at the named items, etc. Just don't nerf the existing (non-champion) levels.

[Blackheartox]

If your having so much fun in Neverwinter, why are you still posting over here?

Attention seeker. And im not sure but isnt it against rules to promote a game from a other company so hard like he does?
His posts should be deleted since they offer no proper feedback for champ system beside he doesnt like we should all quit ddo because HE doesnt like.
I am ok for a compesation, make it ee only or whatever.
But entirely delete a system that devs put effort into that is actually a fresh change and a good step towards challenge.
Why?
Because never is better?
What kind reasoning is that?

Not many here posted they will leave, only couple with on couple accounts, trying to provoke the devs into making the game easier

[hit_fido]

20% drop on the damage boosts is a good tweak. I imagine a solution to spawns that "smartly" reduces clusters is a tougher change to make so the drop in overall frequency is the next best thing. I still think you should also consider adjusting the "on hit add xx elemental damage" buffs when it comes to spell effects and eliminating "ignore fortification".

A carrot sounds good too... though I'm not terribly excited by the words "crafting materials" until I hear more.

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

[Hoglum]

Here’s some feedback:
I don’t like them much so far. From what I’ve seen it’s too generic as far as my tastes are concerned. I had an ooze champ cast slow on me. How does an ooze cast spells? Why are there ooze champs at all? Is it possible the monster champion system could have been accomplished while simultaneously trying to make some sense?

It reminded me of what’s been done with the loot system. Vorpal quarterstaff? Rapier of stunning?

It reminded me of the horrible way epic spells were implemented. Feats? No spell list?

It reminded me of the way spiked chains were introduced. As a superpower for a specific race?


It seems like you’re trying to absolutely kill anything that distinguishes one monster from another. Every monster has a chance of being a champ and they seem to all draw champ abilities from the same table. They are too generic and this wipes out any traits that make a monster type a unique challenge. Just like all weapons having the same exact prefixes and suffixes no matter what weapon type, all monster champs get the same abilities and are thus no different from one another. If there has to be ooze champs, why not make an ooze champ table they can draw from? Give them some ooze-like abilities rather than casting wizard spells?

I would suggest creating at least a few different tables for champs. These could include as examples: ooze table, caster table, warrior table, undead table (separating it by intelligent vs non-intelligent perhaps), aberration table, etc. (haven't thought it out entirely but these are just some thoughts) Use some ideas from existing monster feats/traits to guide what these could be.

It would be nice to see, for example, a Bard champion that, instead of just hitting for extra damage or whatever, sang songs and buffed enemies. Get rid of the gold crown and let them do actions that players could potentially identify as different from the other monsters (such as singing). You could perhaps see an enemy warpriest hit consecrated ground or inflame. Enemy warrior champs could have noticeable action boosts appear overhead. If this seems like too much to develop, just remember that it can evolve. If you have 5 different champ types with 5 different abilities each that could start things off. Over time, add some more types and add more abilities to existing types. This would allow for continued evolution while maintaining some distinction between the types of enemies we face.


TL;DR Find a balance between ease of implementation and complexity. Turn off World of Warcraft and stop playing Diablo. Pick up some Dungeons and Dragons books and find ideas there.

[Qhualor]

People vote in DDO with their dollar spend not their forum posts.

There's been times when I actually thought this was true. Its a good way to drive a quality game down the tubes.

[Qhualor]

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

Dun dun duuunnn...

[psykopeta]

me thinks the trouble is:

normal or casual, low number of mobs, and weak, i guess
hard, moar mobs, stronger, some champions
elite, even moar mobs, even stronger, even more champions

maybe, the troubles that people are finding (like red alert with 34824732 champions or simply more than 2 champions at once) is caused by the increase of number of mobs that come with the difficult increase

maybe, i mean, MAYBE, the champions thing should remain, and simply reduce the "mobs population increase depending on difficult and party members"

cause it makes me sad that a good idea gets nerfed cause so many posts complaining (however some people are damm right, they tested in lammania and reported it, that's why lammania is the test server, to test things, imo)

so i tr'ed before the update and today logged in (lol) did all lvl 12 and lvl 13 quests at lvl, nothing terrible with champions

i must add 2 things:
- defensive for larafy means destruction spam yet, can't turn it off
- champions make other mobs look like gimps, and champions are ok, so i would boost common mobs and maybe reduce the amount of total mobs you find (interesting thing, if common mobs are 25% champion, when it comes to orange, that's pretty sure over 50%)

just saying, the only thing that scared me was the champion that hits for 100 or so with 0 prr, rest are meatbags or simply useless, so maybe a "logical randomization of propierties" should be thought and applied, there're things that never should be champion, and combos that never should appear combined (use the preffix/suffix coding, in fact if you add that preffix/suffix code to the name of the mob we wouldn't need to check their buffs) example would be:
- slaughterer (damage boost)
- warcryer (the one that reduces your saves)

and such
btw, just noticed that champions, no matter their current buff, see you when invis, which makes with the ranged aggro feature a nice combo that leads to avoid zerging (which is ok for me, it's not like i don't zerg, indeed i do, but when grouping i use to say "no da no party" so you can see why i like having some da)

[Impaqt]

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

These both seem like reasonable adjustments. I would also like to see a limit put on how many Champions can be spawned at any given time though. 2 Max on Hard seems reasonable to me. On Elite... Well, Its elite. Mo max. May the dice be with you!

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

A token system might be neat.. but Crafting Materials? Really? Anything in Particular your thinking of?

I'd rather see a Renown and XP reward implemented. Something along the line of ((Quest Level +2(hard) or 3(Elite)) X 100)/2 = XP reward and then half that in Renown.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

Hirelings need a lot of help without Champs.

but dont forget about NPC's and Inanimate objects. Paetus in Ritual got owned by a Champ in one of my runs.. FAIL... That wasnt fun... and I worry about Lars Heyton in Redemption and the Crystal in Cannith Crystal in Korthos....

[Aletys]

Nah if you go back like 10 pages someone posted that Elite got twice the xp as hard. Impaqt put in numbers showing it was actually 11% then another mathematician corrected that and showed it is actually around 27%.

Actually, I think someone sarcastically asked if elite gave twice the xp (responding to one of my posts), but I won't swear to it. Doesn't really matter. 27% is still significant.

There does seem to be a lot of "mathematically-challenged" going around, including among the devs (based on the numbers I've seen in-game on the spawn rates), lol.

[legendkilleroll]

I like the champions, havent done heroics but EE is still fun for me, havent been one shotted myself but have seen a few, CC, go for the champ, think people just got too used to blazing thru the quests

Sure there may need to be some tweaks to it, numbers seem off atm, like almost all the orange named in EE belly were champs

Will be nice when some type of reward system is introduced, hopefully with excluive items! no doubt you haters will be hating again when people are rewarded for fighting champions

[EllisDee37]

Ah, you have just admitted it. Post-U24 is an entirely different game than pre-U24. That's what has most folks upset. It's not the same game.

Post-U23 is an entirely different game compared to pre-U23 as well. Same with both expansion updates, which brought with them epic levels (MotU) and the enhancement pass (Shadowfell).

U23 made the game easier, U24 made the game harder.

[mikarddo]

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

Sounds good. The overall concept is great and with the above tweaks it should be a definite boon for anyone who enjoys the journey and not just the rewards. Keep up the good work.

[PurpleTimb]

I love the new champions. Please don't reduce spawn rate or difficulty.

I'm not a power gamer. My static group isn't quite up to running EEs, so we run EH and for the most part we've been able to complete quests on autopilot with little chance of failure. The first time we ran into three champions in EH Crucible we wiped. Now we know that we have to adjust our play style and take a little more care. The champions have added enough difficulty to make EH exciting but not too difficult for a more casual group.

I would like to see some tangible reward for defeating a champion, such as a small amount of XP or renown. I don't think they all need to drop chests (who really needs more vendor trash?) but some thing.

[Impaqt]

Ah, you have just admitted it. Post-U24 is an entirely different game than pre-U24. That's what has most folks upset. It's not the same game.

OH! ya got me! drat.

(Too bad I never disputed the fact that the game was different with champions)

That said, why do you care? Play the game you want, let others play the game they want.

I care because something like that truly distorts the experience people have.

Or, are you thinking that the game would allow folks in the same party to enter with different checkmarks? I very much doubt that ... first player to enter sets the difficulty, etc. Everyone else in party plays the same game.

I'm quite sure that would never be possible.

But as I sad earlier. The check-box thing would never happen anyway so I'm done talking about that "option"