Monster Champion Feedback

[katz]

2 quests... one last night, one today. total mobs killed 97, total champions 9 (one of which spawned at half life) for an overall average of 9%.

2nd quest was failed and re-entered, then failed again and out of time before work so just released (note: this was a quest i used to be able to do easily)... numbers recorded before recall.\

running average across all quests recorded to date 10.8%

[Sehenry03]

And to those people saying how lots of people playing the game don't post on the forums...

I'm sorry but if you aren't gonna post feedback on the forums you have no say as to what happens in the game.

Its like voting...if you didn't vote then plz don't complain about the president as you didn't actually try to make an impact.

If you want a voice in changes to the champion system you should be on the forums. People in game either complaining or advocating them should be ignored til they come here with feedback. EVERYONE playing an MMO should use the forums for this exact purpose.

[Aletys]

People its simple...give those that want it their little button to disable champions. Just reduce the quest xp and chest levels for wanting/using an easy button.

Well, you got it half-right. Those who choose to run with champions should get some extra xp, & maybe a higher chance at the named loot. Don't nerf it for the rest of us.

[kafrielveddicus]

I'd be okay with a button as long as it did provide a noticeable amount of more xp and more loot (or they could LOWER xp from today's numbers if you choose to go in without champions). Either is fine with me.

Just a checkbox with no change to xp and/or loot is a terrible idea. Might as well put a checkbox in for the boss too.

Sounds far Thrudh, give all those that want to play with Champions +1% xp for every champion killed and +1 loot in quest and end reward for selecting the checkbox, that should satisfy the ubers that want to level quicker and for those that want the challenge they get the better gear. Those that dont want champions lose the extra xp and the loot bonus. This might make all parties happy!

[FestusHood]

Today's game with champions is much easier than the game was when I was new. And it was harder when Blackheart was new than when I was new, since I started playing when cannith crafting and the spell pass went live. (Update 9.)

I started about the same time as you and i remember it differently. The game was NOT as hard then as it is now with champions. I was just a lot worse as a player.

I remember joining an at level group for Invaders BEFORE Motu. It consisted entirely of legend vets with the exception of myself. They tore through that quest just as fast and easily as anybody can do it now. I was of course getting trashed at every turn, and feeling completely useless.

No trash mobs anywhere were one or two shotting anybody, anywhere. I had an extremely low hit point rogue on which i had dumped con before i knew any better. Even that toon typically needed to be hit 5-7 times by trash melees before it was heal or die. The difference in difficulty between being able to survive 5-7 hits and 1-2 hits is enormous. Back then, a healer could actually save your life. They can't now. The time between initial contact and death is so small that no healer could possibly react to it, even if they were purely concentrating on doing it.

This will not bring about a new need for healers, it will only bring about the need for rezzers.

[Aletys]

Now reduce that by the difference in Time.

still... its nowhere near the "Double the XP" claim that so many think they get.

I don't think anyone has claimed that it's double between hard & elite. Possibly between normal & elite, though not sure on that either.

[Vulkoorex]

Players probably belong in the following camps...

1) hate it and get rid of it.

2) hate it but if you keep it then tweak it.

3) like it but tweak it.

4) love it and don't change a thing.


So most likely the Devs will keep it but tweak it. How much of a tweak remains to be seen.

[Sehenry03]

I don't think anyone has claimed that it's double between hard & elite. Possibly between normal & elite, though not sure on that either.

Nah if you go back like 10 pages someone posted that Elite got twice the xp as hard. Impaqt put in numbers showing it was actually 11% then another mathematician corrected that and showed it is actually around 27%.

[DarthCaedus]

I'd be okay with a button as long as it did provide a noticeable amount of more xp and more loot (or they could LOWER xp from today's numbers if you choose to go in without champions). Either is fine with me.

There should definitely be an xp boost and there already is a loot boost with chests.

[Aletys]

Why should the rewards system be the same? Honestly why should someone who plays without a challenge be awarded the same as someone who does? So your answer is that "everyone gets a trophy just for showing up"? That is absolute garbage.

Ah, now we get to the crux of the matter. What's a challenge for one person, may not be for another. Many players find running elite quests at level generally challenging. So why should they be penalized because all of a sudden the game has completely changed?

And, why do you even care what kind of rewards someone else gets? If you want the uber difficulty because it's more interesting, and you were getting bored, why penalize those who found the pre-U24 game challenging and enjoyed playing it the way it was? You got to where you are playing the game the way it was, but you want to deny that to others?

[Sehenry03]

Players probably belong in the following camps...

1) hate it and get rid of it.

2) hate it but if you keep it then tweak it.

3) like it but tweak it.

4) love it and don't change a thing.


So most likely the Devs will keep it but tweak it. How much of a tweak remains to be seen.

Well they posted that it would be tweaked. The problem is the ones that feel entitled don't want them no matter what. They don't want ANY kind of challenge increase while a few don't want any change at all since they ONLY want a big challenge increase.

I vote for a few tweaks but it needs to stay and EVERYONE needs to follow the same rules.

[cdbd3rd]

I can see where the idea of Champions is coming from, and why they've put them into the game.

PnP DMs often add a few 'better' monsters in a pack as leader types. Whether its by age/rank (LE) or toughness (CE), there almost always some sort of front line leaders in encounters. Like having a few Warrior Giant Ants mixed in with the Workers.

However. Current implementation in DDO has been overdone. Some waves of common mobs have spawned in on me where they're ALL Champions. That really throws the quest's difficulty selector out the window.

So I say keep them - but tone them down a bit, and seriously look at their spawn rates.

[Impaqt]

I don't think anyone has claimed that it's double between hard & elite. Possibly between normal & elite, though not sure on that either.

yeah, they did...

Well, I know my 3 static groups run elite to 20 because its about twice the xp of hard.

and then someone said it was +200% even, but I dont feel like finding that quote... its back a few pages if ya really want to see it.

[hit_fido]

Well, you got it half-right. Those who choose to run with champions should get some extra xp, & maybe a higher chance at the named loot. Don't nerf it for the rest of us.

Definitely wish they'd added a carrot to champions (trash loot is not); I wonder how many complaints would have been avoided had they just stuck in some kind of new quest bonus akin to conquest and gave from 5%-20% xp depending on the champion kill count. Seeing some feedback boiling down to objections to the all stick/no carrot aspect of the change.

That plus a checkbox would have let players be incentivized to play with champions when they feel they can handle it, or play at the level they were before until they're ready for the new challenge.

I started about the same time as you and i remember it differently. The game was NOT as hard then as it is now with champions. I was just a lot worse as a player.

This is the way I remember it too. Occasionally chasing the tail end of some TR train back on my second life character in 2010, mostly just watching the obliteration in front of me and trying to keep up. Learned quite a lot more about the game in some of those runs but still not as good as that kind of player.

I believe the point is, a combination of very good players and very good gear has *always* trivialized content - now, *and* then.

[OverlordOfRats]

I would just like to ask those who like it as it is but are against a check box option one question.

What happens when there is no check box and the "horde of casuals" complain until it gets nerfed?

[Aletys]

Put me in the 'so uninterested in champions I've cancelled my subscription' camp.

I've got a completionist toon - wears light armor, uses blur/displace/ghostly/dodge as a significant portion of damage mitigation, some PRR(~75) and this toon was EE capable in U23. She is now EH capable if she gets lucky with the champion spawns. Perfectly capable of getting effortlessly wiped by champions in EH now, if I get unlucky with the spawns. In an EE Spinner, a crowned Jarilith was hitting for around 500-600 damage (after ~40% mitigation via PRR) with almost automatic knockdown.

I've got a swashbuckler build - he was a blast to play in U23, but he's on the shelf now. As is my tempest (U23 didn't help him much) who just gets taken out too easily due to insufficient PRR/MRR and average saves.

That's 3 of my 4 mains that I don't really want to play now due to this stupid mechanic. Only my light-nuker build will be even vaguely viable against this new system, particularly on EE.
I could HTR them and start again - but that raises the issue of getting back through heroic levels with this random **** all the way through them.


Here's my 2c worth:
- a monster buff system which completely invalidates entire build philosophies overnight (most champs I encountered seemed to have true seeing and damage boost, meaning that light melees turn into a light snack) is a good way to get people to leave the game.

- if you think mobs need 10x the hp they usually have and the ability to wipe characters (particularly melee toons) with massive damage spikes, you may have forgotten the TWO BIGGEST COMPLAINTS THAT LED TO U23 IN THE FIRST PLACE. U23 allowed us a lot more build freedom and the chance to play light melees again - and you've just snatched most of it away with a big fat dose of random.

- ridiculously overpowered uber-mobs that wipe my group because of random = the worst game mechanic ever. If I pulled this **** on my P&P group they would be pulling out a copy of mechwarrior and starting to roll characters, because my game would be dead and buried right there and then. This is NOT how a good RPG plays.

- people saying that 10% of mobs being champions is a good number to aim for - I suggest otherwise. A normal coal chamber has 450 kills - so around 50 champions. That quest takes long enough as it is and there is only 1 res shrine - bring extra raise scrolls, and hope you don't get too unlucky with the champs. Random! Our group didn't especially look forward to running coal chamber before - this will just make it so we don't want to at all. You know it's a great, well thought out mechanic where vet players start not wanting to run their favourite content because it may have turned into a frustrating grind because... RANDOM!


So to those who embrace champions, good luck. I'll check back in a few weeks and if the system has been adjusted to the point where it might be the slightest fun to play most of my toons, I may pick up where I left off.

For those of you in this thread that keep saying 'there is always normal' - I respond with this: why should I be reduced to playing this game that I've been playing on hard and elite for 4 years on the beginner level just because I'm adverse to wasting my gameplay time either wiping to trashmobs with good random abilities or constantly raising other toons or ferrying them between res shrines? How does that make my gameplay experience more fun or rewarding? Fun is what I'm here for, long-term goals notwithstanding. I run in a small group, at Asia-Pacific time. When I log in, there are often 3-4 LFMs up in total. Finding anyone to group with at that time can be difficult - moreso if you're not running a difficulty people actually want to play.

If you're not finding the game challenging enough, try building a non-twink non-min/max toon and not gearing him to the absolute limit. I was enjoying doing just that - my toons were fun to play and found EE a moderate challenge. Now, they might well not make it past the first set of mobs in a quest on either EE or EH, just based on getting unlucky with the champion spawns. But hey, I can always release, repair, rebuff, reset, re-enter, and hope I get luckier next time. Woo Random!

That level of variation in a globally applied mechanic is just awful and makes the game one I will probably not waste my leisure time playing - certainly not one that I will pay money for.

Very well said.

[MangLord]

I wouldn't support another difficulty setting though. We've been through this. New, harder difficulty setting gets implemented, players get more power, new setting becomes easy, players that shouldn't be playing on said difficulty get mad because they can't play on it anymore if the challenge gets increased to match the power creep.

Do you honestly think that people aren't already making optimized builds to solo EE with champions? The devs can add anything they want to the game and people will find a build to deal with it in the most efficient way possible. Anyone who has ever been a DM knows this. Players will always find a way through your most carefully laid plans.

As a former DM, I can tell you this. When I allowed the players interested in power full access to whatever they wanted, they got bored of it after a month or two and started to work with me in the interest of story. That was when our campaign really started, because they stopped worrying about killing monsters faster and started paying attention to what really mattered to the rest of the table, which was the overlying story arc and overcoming challenges that couldn't be beaten with a +5 sword. They eventually realized that no one was having fun when you could just fly over the haunted forest, grab the king's stolen crown and the story was over. Eventually they actually started to surprise me with solutions I never considered, and we had a great time.

[Inoukchuk]

Please do NOT implement a check box on whether you want champs or not. Everyone should be playing the same game. You should NOT get as much favor as I do if I am running an elite quest with champs and you are to busy complaining about it so you want to click an "I win" button so you can get your easy free favor.

Sorry peeps but I have no issues with Turbine upping the difficulty of getting favor. It doesn't matter if they are doing it strictly for the money. If you want the BEST favor then win on the HARDEST setting. If champions are in the game then that includes them.

1) I have no issues with maybe not putting in champions until lvl 8 or something so early levels are easier. Fine.
2) If they are suppose to be 10% of the total mob count then fine...reduce the current 10-40% to straight 10%.
3) If you don't want to be 1 hit by a champ fine...reduce that ONE mobs high DPS number and increase EVERY other mob. It is ONE mob...I have been 1 shot a couple times and I come back ****ed to kill him. I have no issues with a mob being able to 1 shot me. I 1 shot them ALL the time so its a little pay back.
4) Do NOT increase rewards for champions or add more xp. They should just be part of Elite quests
5) If people hate them in Hard difficulties so much...fine make them Elite only. Newer players can run hard quests and I think we established that the difference between HH and HE is about 26% xp with HH being much quicker to complete so it averages out.
6) You don't want to have to run a quest twice so you can get Elite favor? Fine grow a pair and beat it on Elite or get help.
7) You are a permadeath player and don't want the champions to be so tough because you die to easy? Then play the game as it was made. You CHOOSE to play by your own rules then you have to live with the consequences.

Some quick points I am sure a lot of people will be offended by...

These are some very reasonable suggestions. See how easy compromise can be (not so much directed at the poster as the audience)?

I think there is a lot of over-reacting going on. I also think the change was a bit harsh and a bit sudden and not thoroughly thought out or tested. People are angry, and not without good reasons. Other people are elated, also for good reasons. The above suggestions could make everyone happy. To sum up some of the compromises above:

No champs before level 8
No champs on hard
Reduced spawn rate to flat 10%
Flatten the curve so lower spike damage and higher lower end to keep average the same and reduce 1-shot deaths

With the above changes, man-up if you want elite rewards.

To me this makes the whole thing very acceptable. People who find it too challenging now will build skills and learn techniques to take on champions on elite. People who weren't challenged by elite might be now. The game remains playable to all on hard, and the jump to elite isn't too overbearing.

[Aletys]

For all the vets that are saying that this reminds them of the fun they had when they were new, this is a very important point. When you were new, you still had lots of room to grow, you could increase the power of you character a ton, and there was still a lot you could learn about the game itself.

People mention remembering being one shot by mobs when they were new. How long did that go on before you took steps to prevent it. Remember when the advise was to get more hit points, get false life item, don't dump con? Once you did that, you stopped getting one shotted right?

The problem with this new system is, that now the mobs are one shotting people who HAVE all that stuff. What is the point of even trying to get more hit points, more prr, more of anything really, if it won't make a tangible difference in the game?

The game has now changed to one where it's basically you get hit, you die. There is almost nobody with the skill level to play at that level in this game. So the result will be that yes, people will resort to cheesy "tactics" because there will be no other option. Then once people have learned to do that, what next? There will be no reason to progress your character, because only the "tactics' will matter. That's fine in a game that is designed that way, but it's a terrible mechanic for a game whose main appeal is character development.

Exactly.

/signed

[Impaqt]

I would just like to ask those who like it as it is but are against a check box option one question.

What happens when there is no check box and the "horde of casuals" complain until it gets nerfed?

I'd much rather have a toned down champion system than a checkbox.