Monster Champion Feedback

[Enderoc]

I agree with the others, I like the idea of champion spawn, but why are they all over the place dropping from the ceiling?

[Granitmound]

The problem is that this is exactly what was done. Almost everything has deathWARD, which i suspect is some kind of a WARD?

I personally have not yet seen a single champion that did not have massively inflated hit points. As far as tactics go, this is simply not a tactical video game. Despite what the description may say, pushing a button called stunning blow is not a tactic, it's an effect. Pushing a button called hold person is not a tactic, it's an effect. As somebody who has played a lot of wargames, i laugh at the idea that this is a tactical game.

Party tactics can be used in DDO to increase success. But I agree. Tactics don't seem to be used when dying doesn't mean anything. In a permadeath guild/party the use of tactics can mean the difference of completing a quest or deleting your toon. So just because you don't play using tactics doesn't mean that DDO isn't, or can't be a tactical game.

[Aletys]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Do you have any that it's not? I have so far read every post for the last 50 pages, have you? And, yes, I'm about ready to give up, but since playing is not a lot of fun right now, I might as well read.

While I did not do a tally, my overall impression is that most folks do not like the current implementation at all. Some folks love it, some folks hate it, most are in-between. The in-betweens are generally in the "botched implementation" group. Some of them like the idea of champions, some don't, but generally agree it's been very poorly implemented.

[Sehenry03]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that pretty much what the vip daily gold roll is? And Otto's Box?

VIP gold daily roll? Umm best I ever got was a 20k xp stone which made lvl 1 and 2 an easy bypass.

Otto's box? Meh maybe. For people with money that don't want to run a life this lets them spend money and bypass it. 1 TR from an otto's box isn't gonna do much. Now 20 otto's boxes? I want that person job!!!

[Sam1313]

Party tactics can be used in DDO to increase success. But I agree. Tactics don't seem to be used when dying doesn't mean anything. In a permadeath guild/party the use of tactics can mean the difference of completing a quest or deleting your toon. So just because you don't play using tactics doesn't mean that DDO isn't, or can't be a tactical game.

+1 to this, I too play a pd character on cannith.

[kafrielveddicus]

I wasn't directing my comment at you I was really just commenting on the Chicken Little mentality everyone seems to be yelling from their soapboxes.

You shouldn't be able to roll through parts of the game in a couple of days. The fact that some people can is proof enough that the game has gotten too easy.

Wrong! I am a VIP and I regularly spend money on points....usually once or twice a year. To make matters worse when I do, I drop a minimum of $100 because I want them to last six month to a year. See I don't go to concerts unless the wife wants to (rarely). I don't but video games, music, go out to bars or the the movies. This is my vice/recreation...other than wine.

Wrong again. I am, as my signature states, caught between the casual gamer and the power gamer. I can and have run with the top guilds on Thelanis (also been a member of a few) but I also enjoy screwing around. As far as the different variety of players within the game, I'm well aware of each and every type that I have encounters since 2006. Now there may be some newer ones but I don't have an issue with them so I don't understand why you would think that I do.

How well versed you are, its almost like another bait, i will bite!

I guess we are on equal levels because we spent the same amount of money, lol yeah! *sarcasm*

Unlike you I do go out to lots of events, bars, travel sometimes with a lady friend sometimes with multiple lady friends, sometimes i just stay at home in the hot tub with them, I think real life is completely fair! Just sad that my one temporary escape(DDO) from the real world and running a corporation(my own personal soapbox rico) is coming to an end, it's hard to find distractions in life. You keep that wife happy, too much of one vice can lead them to stray to other distractions!

Best wishes!

[Enderoc]

-Stinking Cloud (for Heroic) or Cloud Kill (on Epic) for a champion rat; this is a creature of filth and disease, and one that has lived unusually long probably developed a deadly self defense mechanism.
-Have a Iron Defenders infused with extra elemental damage and have resistance to a given element; as constructs, it isn't unreasonable to think that they could be created with extra-planar materials which grant them an affinity for a certain element.
-A champion rogue my employ various poisons alongside Hamstring, or Sap a player if undetected.

Just to reiterate, these thing may have some extra hp and do a bit more damage, but we should never see lvl 4 creatures with thousands of hp or anything than can hit a player for 5k. That's just wrong.

The real problem is that the devs took the lazy way out, and this isn't really about challenge. It's about adding more grind without adding a reason for players to want to do it.

Now that is the D&D I came here to play. Not just tough brute monsters, but monsters that are tough specifically in the way they are designed that makes sense and adds real flavor that actually contributes to overall feel. Again I stress the point that with guild levels reaching so high, champion spawn should have some return and guild experience seems a good route.

[1cebeast]

I have read most posts, and all the developer posts, and have nothing new to add except: it is not so easy to just tell players to PLAY ON NORMAL, if they want to avoid Champions.
Everything Turbine has crafted encourages players to play on Elite Difficulty.
More experience, more favor. You have to have favor to unlock classes, gifts, and earn Turbine Points. I think it is safe to say, NO player will run from 1-20 doing all normal quests.
No player wants to be forced into playing PUGs, if they are not in the mood.
This should also not turn into a contest about who can run what setting. I have a main that can do EE, but a brand new first lifer that I unfortunately started running this week. She has to stay parked unless I can see an LFM up.

Please consider making the CHAMPS another setting, or checkbox, or difficulty setting.

If your keeping them, please keep track of stats on how long new players play, to see if they stick with the game, or not.
Tweak the champs so they do not/can not one-shot an NPC on an ESCORT quest.
Consider changing how Bravery Bonus works, if you want to force players to run Normal settings.

[DarthCaedus]

Do you have any that it's not? I have so far read every post for the last 50 pages, have you? And, yes, I'm about ready to give up, but since playing is not a lot of fun right now, I might as well read.

While I did not do a tally, my overall impression is that most folks do not like the current implementation at all. Some folks love it, some folks hate it, most are in-between. The in-betweens are generally in the "botched implementation" group. Some of them like the idea of champions, some don't, but generally agree it's been very poorly implemented.

It is and based on the Turbine responses I think people should assume if Turbine doesn't come up with a clear plan to address the issue by the end of the week it's unlikely theywill any time soon. "We're still listening to your comments and reading all the feedback" has often meant we'll string you along and hope you stick with the game while doing absolutely nothing for a really long time. That is how it was with ETR commendations and guild decay.

If people don't like this change they should start looking at other MMOs, games or even completely different hobbies. If Turbine fixes it quick - great - otherwise it's not worth the wait. I am not logging in or spending any money on the game unless Turbine actually resolves the issue.

[Aletys]

Actually, they got rid of tiered N/H/E loot a few updates ago and they have no intention of bringing it back.
Random loot hasnt been of significant value in a very long time. ...

No, they didn't. They got rid of it for newly introduced gear in new quests. Not on the existing quests. If they had, we wouldn't be getting "epic normal" gear on end rewards in Wheelon, Eveningstar & Gianthold, etc. The old gear is still tiered, both heroic & epic.

[Blackheartox]

Going to address this mitigation issue. It's true that back in the day, there was no significant mitigation, ala prr. The game was balanced for that. As a result people could focus on other aspects of their build. If you balance the content so that only the people who have focused entirely in damage mitigation can survive it, then that will be the end of any semblance of character diversity.

It's easy for you, you only play one character, and it is ALWAYS following some kind of current optimized build. So let's just write off all the players who don't want to play that way eh? Well, all i can say is, you will reap what you sow.

I did not play optimize builds when i started, i played every single class pure to 20 when i started since i wanted to have a feeling how each and every plays out in this game.
I nearly quit ddo when i played a bard back then.
Nearly means i had a 6 months break, thats how weak bard was back then and how horrible it was to level one.
HORRIBLE.

And i didnt play one character, i had a healer to farm gear, since everyone liked a healer in their group, and i had a arcane that had no past lifes that would farm scrolls.
You know how other people farmed?
They click on litany, they click on yugo pots, they have staff of petitioner and have those shiney tod archmage rings.
What did i have?
Nothing at all.
I would step into chrono and pull 1 by 1 mob while wasting all my sp by energy draining it in hope i can land 1 finger and use power word kill on 2nd and recal and repeat.
Yes i farmed hours like that to get my own set of abi gear.

Dont let me started on other stuff.

Game for me and new players is a different dimension.
They have it easier now, from 1-28 to gear up a character and make it ready for hardest content.
I will also offer advice if they need on builds/gear.

Wish someone told me back when i started, over go to necro chain on en couple times and get most of your endgear.
What was told to me was stuff like:
Guildie:

-What class do you want to play?

Me:
-Sorc

Guildie:

-Ok first you need greensteel atleast sp and hp, but wizzy is better then sorc

Me:

- I dont have mats after runing it for months /:

Guildie:

-Also best is wf

Me:

-Wf? Cant human work out?

Guildie:

-No, also you want to get tod ring and belt

Me:

-uhm ok tod, never got into a group yet, they say im to weak

Guildie:

-Also you want a 3-5 piece abi set

Me:

-Ah yes the raid that everyone runs and its pretty hard to get seals and shards since drop is horrible, ok got that

Guildie:

-Also you would like litany and staff of petitioner

Me:

-Yes yes i saw those items in a release notes when i started playing, dont believe items like that exist in this game, one day i will get all those items /abbot is my favorite raid in ddo bdw and one of the rare ones that i entirely love


Difference in approach in this game is a different entity.
New players dont need to bother with seal/shard system, Gsteel crafting, running most raids 20 times with a very very big time frame between raids, new players practically dont need to fail to learn, dont need to struggle for power.
New players dont need to play the part of ddo, that me, my friends and all my guildies in all the guilds i was part of, found the best part of ddo.
I mean, its not my own opinion, its opinion of most vets i played with.
The feeling you get when you see that sos shard after no bypasses were existing.
The feeling when you get quiver of alatricity after 80 abbots.
The feeling of crafting your first gsteel.

Those were feelings of victory that showed as proof to oneself that he struggled, lost, got back up, multiple times and that he prevailed and won.
I want new players to have that amazing feeling.
If champ system can bring that back, why not leave it?
Ddo felt more like a mmorpg before motu then it does now, way way more

[Impaqt]

No, they didn't. They got rid of it for newly introduced gear in new quests. Not on the existing quests. If they had, we wouldn't be getting "epic normal" gear on end rewards in Wheelon, Eveningstar & Gianthold, etc. The old gear is still tiered, both heroic & epic.

of course. and there are so many EE loot items that people who cant handle Elite content just cant play the game without.

[Aletys]

Perhaps you'd get more people to be more understanding towards you, if you didn't come off as so selfish. You have two difficulties to play on that provide the exact same experience as they did before. If those do not provide you with enough challenge, then ask to have them buffed. Do not ask for all difficulties to be designed around you so that other players are left out.

That isn't fair, and you get no sympathy from me.

You have four difficulties to play on. Pick ONE, not FOUR, as if you pick all four, it's obvious that players better than you will be left with nowhere to go to be challenged.

No, if you are objecting to adding the option of having champions, instead of forcing everyone to deal with them, then it is not the previous poster who is being selfish.

An option is just that, optional. You can use it or not. Why do you object to someone else having the option not to have champions?

[hit_fido]

The heroic game was balanced for no mitigation. We now have mitigation. The heroic game was not rebalanced for the addition of mitigation. The entire heroic game is now easier as a consequence.

Random but frequently occurring champions that have amplified damage to overcome some of the new mitigation makes sense.

The question is how much mitigation the average build has in heroics now and therefore how much damage amplification should champion mobs be given to balance it again. Personally I don't care for buffs like "ignore fortification" as there's never been a time that I can recall (since f2p) that frequent trash mobs could bypass even most fortification, let alone all. If an average character in level 10 heroics has 35 PRR or about 25% mitigation, then how much harder should those champion mobs hit them? Twice as hard as every other mob? I'm frequently seeing way more than double damage, and at least triple or more from some spell effects. Should champions hit three times as hard and have 3-5 times as much hp?

Given past behavior, Turbine is most likely to leave the system in, not make it optional, and just tweak it, probably downward as they almost always err on the side of some extreme then dial back either up or down but away from the extreme. The most fruitful suggestions are probably going to be of the form, "X is how much tougher champions should be adjusted to because X restores balance in this manner: ...".

[Impaqt]

No, if you are objecting to adding the option of having champions, instead of forcing everyone to deal with them, then it is not the previous poster who is being selfish.

An option is just that, optional. You can use it or not. Why do you object to someone else having the option not to have champions?

because a checkbox would completely throw off the balance of the game. you would literally have people side by side playing completely different games.

[kafrielveddicus]

I have read most posts, and all the developer posts, and have nothing new to add except: it is not so easy to just tell players to PLAY ON NORMAL, if they want to avoid Champions.
Everything Turbine has crafted encourages players to play on Elite Difficulty.
More experience, more favor. You have to have favor to unlock classes, gifts, and earn Turbine Points. I think it is safe to say, NO player will run from 1-20 doing all normal quests.
No player wants to be forced into playing PUGs, if they are not in the mood.
This should also not turn into a contest about who can run what setting. I have a main that can do EE, but a brand new first lifer that I unfortunately started running this week. She has to stay parked unless I can see an LFM up.

Please consider making the CHAMPS another setting, or checkbox, or difficulty setting.

If your keeping them, please keep track of stats on how long new players play, to see if they stick with the game, or not.
Tweak the champs so they do not/can not one-shot an NPC on an ESCORT quest.
Consider changing how Bravery Bonus works, if you want to force players to run Normal settings.

Very Rational, Fully Agree!

[Thrudh]

Wrong, because as I have stated in several posts, leave a button for players like you to have champions in quest, give you more xp and loot for all I care, just dont change the gaming experience that many of the gamers I know enjoy thoroughly. See you get what you want and the many players I know that enjoy heroic gaming just the way it is, get what they want.

I'd be okay with a button as long as it did provide a noticeable amount of more xp and more loot (or they could LOWER xp from today's numbers if you choose to go in without champions). Either is fine with me.

Just a checkbox with no change to xp and/or loot is a terrible idea. Might as well put a checkbox in for the boss too.

[Aletys]

The option to turn off champion mobs is so you can just keep your Elite streaks right? Champions actually make you earn those streaks IMO. I gave up a 3k elite streak to learn MoD, and nearly 500 streak to learn U24 quests. The world is consistently changing, the champions make this game more fun despite all your disbelief. Old players are returning, some new players might not be up for the challenge and might not stay that is their choice; using them to get points across isn't very effective.
Heroics:
Without Champions:
Normal: zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Hard: zzzzzzzzzz
Elite: zzzzzzzzz

With Champions:
Normal= to learn the quest.
Hard= still learning, but more challenging then normal with champion mobs.
Elite= Fun, cant pike/sleep through, Champions keep you awake and quite a bit of xp for the successful.(Supposed to be the most challenging difficulty in heroics for a reason)

People have gotten into the mindset that elite has to be the first time difficulty because of streaks.

Nope, has nothing to do with elite streak, frankly not that important on heroic since they rebalanced the XP curve. We skipped a whole bunch of content on heroic because even our 3rd lifers were leveling up fast, and so we skipped the ones that were not on the "favorites" list. It has far more to do with favor & favor rewards, and with the tiered named loot. At least for me & my guildies. We're not on a constant TR grind, so that might also impact our opinions on this. We're playing because we enjoy the quests (well, most of them).

[phillymiket]

This is a gross mischaracterization of the feedback in this thread.

I'd say at least half the posters (not posts) in this thread are for champions and like the new change.

I agree.

It's pretty split. The "No Champions/Less Champion/Change but Keep Champion" side has more people like me posting over and over and over.

I am doing so because i think this is a great idea that was put out in a poor way that actually puts the game at risk.

Korthos Champions is just that bad an idea, in my mind.

I get why a Vet would want it as is.

Heck, I like them to!

But what on Earth was Turbine thinking?

"Let's take our Starter Area and add some unpredictable element to it that it might make the quest interesting, it might make it unsolvable, or it might just make a corpse on the ground be a 'Champion'" for no good reason."

"That will make our players base go up!"

"And if our new players fail because of the 'Random Element' they can learn from their mistake so when they try again and face the 'Random Element', they will better know just how dang Random it is"

Crazy. Just crazy insane.

If people can't see a "Crazy Random Deadly Element" in your starter area isn't the pinnacle of bewilderingly stupid game design, then i don't know what to say.

But I'm going to keep saying it anyway because I actually want this game around in 6 months.

It's like your first experience with D&D is with a terrible DM who might just drop a building on your head out of clear blue sky, or might not, depend on his mood and if has enough Funyuns.

Nobody likes that DM.

Wait for people to be able to handle Non-Random DDO before we throw curve balls at them.

[MangLord]

It might be a good idea to make champions an "epic only" addition. I just recently rolled up a barbarian to try out the new trees, and he is totally unable to do HE quests, and has a lot of trouble with hard. It might be that barbarians are still gimpy, though. I geared him out very well with cannith crafting and some nice weapons. (Carnifex and Sword of the Thirty with a ruby of erosion)

It would limit the unhappiness from new/casual players and people looking to grind out another TR without too much pain and suffering, and still offer extra challenge to end gamers, who seem to be the large majority of people happy about the champions. The only caveat might be the jump in difficulty, was already a little surprising for me when I first ventured into epic level way back when. That being said, I quickly adjusted to EN and eventually worked my way into EH and EE with gear, knowledge and experience.

In general, I think the champions are more of a speed bump than anything else at epic, but they can be a real problem on heroic levels, particularly the casters. A decent player will usually have knowledge and resources to deal with a hurdle at epic levels, but our characters are generally not powerful enough to deal with champion buffs at heroic levels. I'm fine with dying miserably when there is a solution to the problem that I can build/prepare for and the failure is a matter of me being lazy or inattentive. What I don't like is being a sacrificial lamb that has no hope of survival beyond blind luck.