Monster Champion Feedback

[Impaqt]

The fact that you believe this is a solution, or that anyone wants to play like that, just shows a complete lack of understanding of the player base and its motivations. These "solutions" are boring, cheap, and rely on players working the system rather than enjoying the game. Also, there actually is a difference between loot from normal to hard, and hard to elite, even if it is only a few points here and there. If they want to get rid of the normal/hard versions of gear and only have the elite version of it from quests, then maybe that would address one of the symptoms of people's outrage, but ultimately the core cause of the problem will still drive people away--it's just frustrating to play like this.

Actually, they got rid of tiered N/H/E loot a few updates ago and they have no intention of bringing it back.
Random loot hasnt been of significant value in a very long time.

The entire "play an easier difficulty" argument simply doesn't hold up, because people are used to the game how it was, and suddenly changing it this radically simply feels like a different--and not fun--game. Try to justify it anyway you want, but players ARE already leaving because of this, while others are staying temporarily in the hopes that it is corrected, and will probably leave in the next week or two if it isn't. Trying to appease the "elitists" at the cost of everyone else means at the cost of everyone else.

And "I like it that way because thats the way its always been" doesn't hold up IMO.

[Fluffib]

I learned playing on normal. I steadfastly maintain that there needs to be a difficulty more challenging than "learning" mode.

I agree in theory but it's difficult in practice.

How long was your "learning period"? It took me about 2 months to figure things out before I got to a point where I considered myself a decent contributor to a quest. It might have also helped that my first character happened to be a bard, at first because bards could both heal and use offensive spells. About a month into the game, other people helped me discover that bards were actually pretty good at melee fighting.

When playing on normal, did you learn by yourself, or from other people? Different people learn in different ways, some by measuring their own outcomes and developing ways to improve their approach; some by watching others. For those new players who want to learn from others, is there a way for them to do that in normal? A way that the reasonable new player could figure out him or herself?

As a new player, was it important for you to play with other people, or did you prefer to play alone? Even before I knew there was a world beyond Korthos, I saw that most public groups were for elite.

[jalont]

Actual post from General Board on our guild page:

"Based off this gaming change, you are playing at your own risk, hopefully the DEVs will allow an option button to turn champions off in heroic settings, please feel free to post about this on the actual DDO forums.
Unfortunately I will be online very little until this has changed, I will be getting Daily Dice and will upgrade peoples status as needed.
I do recommend any subscribed players cancel their subscription and for heavens sake do not spend another penny on the game!!!"


My advice to other guilds/guild leaders is to make your impact in game, you can only show how displeased by this change by changing your financial contribution to the game, if the many regular players stick to their bones and speak up in this manner we will get the result which we are all hoping for in our playstyle.

Perhaps you'd get more people to be more understanding towards you, if you didn't come off as so selfish. You have two difficulties to play on that provide the exact same experience as they did before. If those do not provide you with enough challenge, then ask to have them buffed. Do not ask for all difficulties to be designed around you so that other players are left out.

That isn't fair, and you get no sympathy from me.

You have four difficulties to play on. Pick ONE, not FOUR, as if you pick all four, it's obvious that players better than you will be left with nowhere to go to be challenged.

[Nascoe]

Vargouile already posted that "only mini-bosses drop chests" was a misstatement, or dev jargon slipped into official release. Any orange-letter champion can drop chests, including orange-letter trash mobs. Such as Helmed Horrors in Haunted Halls, or Dire Bears in Belly of the Beast.

Well, yeah. I think you might have missed the point of that post though. Look at the picture enclosed in it.

...

yes, those are 2 chests floating up somewhere near the ceiling ... and we do not have portable ladders, or grappling hooks to get to them.

[jalont]

The entire "play an easier difficulty" argument simply doesn't hold up, because people are used to the game how it was, and suddenly changing it this radically simply feels like a different--and not fun--game. Try to justify it anyway you want, but players ARE already leaving because of this, while others are staying temporarily in the hopes that it is corrected, and will probably leave in the next week or two if it isn't. Trying to appease the "elitists" at the cost of everyone else means at the cost of everyone else.

You'd have a point, except that this isn't how it was. For the last three years, practically every update has further trivialized elite content. If we left the game how people were used to, it would be much harder than it is now, even with champions. And guess what, many, many more people have left the game because of the trivialization of content over the last three years than are going to leave over this. Hopefully we can get them back with this change.

It's bad if ten people leave because of this change, but it's better if we lose them and keep the 11 that would have left because of the further trivialization of content. We have no proof of these people that are going to leave because of this, but we certainly know the numbers of people who have left while the game has gotten easier and easier and shifted into something else.

[Monkey-Boy]

It's bad if ten people leave because of this change, but it's better if we lose them and keep the 11 that would have left because of the further trivialization of content. We have no proof of these people that are going to leave because of this, but we certainly know the numbers of people who have left while the game has gotten easier and easier and shifted into something else.

You have absolutely zero evidence that this is true.

[Albinosaurus]

I would choose Neverwinter over running DDO on normal.

I won't play Neverwinter.

-It's still Turbine, and if they can ruin DDO, they will ruin NW--which is already a cash grab anyway.
-It doesn't use d20 system.
-There are better games available.

Just wanted to pop into the thread to let folks know that we are still reading and processing through what has become an extremely large amount of feedback. We want to give this system and the feedback time to cook and develop, rather than make knee-jerk reactions to a new system, so please continue to play with it a bit and let us know how things progress.

No. I'm not interested in playing a system I got sick of within hours, and I'm not alone in that feeling. You don't have the luxury of time on this. At most, people will wait a week or two. How many players are you willing to simply throw away over a bad decision?

[Zeleron]

The option to turn off champion mobs is so you can just keep your Elite streaks right? Champions actually make you earn those streaks IMO. I gave up a 3k elite streak to learn MoD, and nearly 500 streak to learn U24 quests. The world is consistently changing, the champions make this game more fun despite all your disbelief. Old players are returning, some new players might not be up for the challenge and might not stay that is their choice; using them to get points across isn't very effective.
Heroics:
Without Champions:
Normal: zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Hard: zzzzzzzzzz
Elite: zzzzzzzzz

With Champions:
Normal= to learn the quest.
Hard= still learning, but more challenging then normal with champion mobs.
Elite= Fun, cant pike/sleep through, Champions keep you awake and quite a bit of xp for the successful.(Supposed to be the most challenging difficulty in heroics for a reason)

People have gotten into the mindset that elite has to be the first time difficulty because of streaks.

[Impaqt]

I won't play Neverwinter.

-It's still Turbine, and if they can ruin DDO, they will ruin NW--which is already a cash grab anyway.
-It doesn't use d20 system.
-There are better games available.

o.O

Turbine doesnt have anything to do with neverwinter....

No. I'm not interested in playing a system I got sick of within hours, and I'm not alone in that feeling. You don't have the luxury of time on this. At most, people will wait a week or two. How many players are you willing to simply throw away over a bad decision?

Within a week most people will realize they over reacted and will be looking forward to tweaks coming to the system.

[Fluffib]

It's bad if ten people leave because of this change, but it's better if we lose them and keep the 11 that would have left because of the further trivialization of content. We have no proof of these people that are going to leave because of this, but we certainly know the numbers of people who have left while the game has gotten easier and easier and shifted into something else.

I bet that this 10:11 ratio was completely made up. In fact, nobody outside Turbine even knows if this is directionally accurate.

[Impaqt]

I bet that this 10:11 ratio was completely made up. In fact, nobody outside Turbine even knows if this is directionally accurate.

he wasnt present those numbers as facts....

Still its hard to argue the fact that we have lost a significant number of people because the game got too easy lacked any real challenge.

[kafrielveddicus]

Perhaps you'd get more people to be more understanding towards you, if you didn't come off as so selfish. You have two difficulties to play on that provide the exact same experience as they did before. If those do not provide you with enough challenge, then ask to have them buffed. Do not ask for all difficulties to be designed around you so that other players are left out.

That isn't fair, and you get no sympathy from me.

You have four difficulties to play on. Pick ONE, not FOUR, as if you pick all four, it's obvious that players better than you will be left with nowhere to go to be challenged.

Wrong, because as I have stated in several posts, leave a button for players like you to have champions in quest, give you more xp and loot for all I care, just dont change the gaming experience that many of the gamers I know enjoy thoroughly. See you get what you want and the many players I know that enjoy heroic gaming just the way it is, get what they want.

[Sehenry03]

Ok so after playing a few more days on Sarlona doing HE quests with Ziffin my 12 Wizard I have found the following has changed:

MORE people are grouping then before.
I have died twice now after about 15 HE quests due to champions.
The population on Sarlona has not really changed so everyone talking about how everyone is leaving...your all idiots or full of **** lol sorry.

I am still zerging the same quests and playing the same way. The only change has been to slow down if I see a caster and take them out first if it is a champion. I am enjoying the fact that I can actually die now. Before champs I had 0% chance to die while TRing 1-20 doing all HE quests unless I went afk or hit a trap wrong. Now I have to actually see what I am fighting.

Impaqt has a WONDERful breakdown of xp and how the difference between HE and HH is MINIMAL at the very least.

Get a group people. My guild has changed NOTHING while leveling in Epic content. We all still run everything Elite as we would never live it down if we ran EH.

If your on Sarlona having issues in Heroic levels send me a tell while I am TRing. I don't care who joins my group as long as you have a good attitude. I don't care if you die. I have no issues going back to get your stone and I don't mind explaining the quest as we go along.

Oh and to whoever was saying a sorc being better years ago then now??? Holy **** you are playing a different game then I am. Sorcs to ME are the easiest and fastest leveling class in the game...several years ago they were mana hogs and had to shrine every time...now I can go a whole quest without shrining once.

[Ironforge_Clan]

People its simple...give those that want it their little button to disable champions. Just reduce the quest xp and chest levels for wanting/using an easy button.

[mna]

"Protect The Guy" quests are rough because if you go down in level, to say Norm or Casual, the protected person become increasingly weaker and the quest gets actually harder.
...
Korthos Island having a quest that you may not able to proceed through without half a dozen tries?

That's a game-killer.

No one on Earth would keep playing after such a first experience.

... and it has two of them now, on hard and elite. One in the village and one in the wilderness...

[gwonbush]

SO your saying that no bonus ever apply to Hard difficulty? O.O

I believe your mistaken.


let me elaborate on my original comment.

Turbine has a multitude of XP boosters in this game

First things, I shouldn't have to point out that things like XP Tomes, XP Potions, Ship Buffs, Voice of the Master and VIP XP Bonus, and Daily run, apply equally to Normal, Hard and Elite difficulty.

There is also a bunch of in-quest boosts that also apply equally to ALL difficulty levels. things like Ransack,Conquest, Traps and secret doors.. Oh and Deaths.... and no re-entry.

That raises the effective base again.

Now lets consider Elite Specific boost. there are a few of them, but there are also Hard equivalents for most of them. Bravery bonus for example. If your are maxed, you get 50%. Hard gives +25%. for a Net 25% difference. You also have first time hard or elite netting an additional 10 or 20% for a net 10% gain. and last but not least, we get the first time ever bonus. 80% on elite! oh.. but there is still a 40% on hard... Net gain. 40%.

so thats a gain of 75% Not quite double.. but wait...Theres more....

when you add up all the universal bonus' we end up with a much different number....



so no. you dont get triple the XP on Elite than you do on Hard. You dont even get double.....

As you can see. Its actually about 11%





This increases the effective Base XP of a quest dramatically.

Your calculations are off, though it is still significantly closer to your 11% than his 200%. The xp from potions, vip, voice and ship buffs are all multiplicative bonuses applied after the quest xp and can thus be ignored. This brings us to 260% on hard with all bonuses versus 335% on Elite with all bonuses, making elite give 20.8% more xp overall. Taking acoount base xp on elite is around 5% higher than on hard, it's more like 26.9%.

Of course, this is with all xp bonuses, which is not possible in all quests. With no bonuses but daily, persistence and no deaths, the number widens all the way to 41.6% more xp on elite than hard.

[Qhualor]

Wrong, because as I have stated in several posts, leave a button for players like you to have champions in quest, give you more xp and loot for all I care, just dont change the gaming experience that many of the gamers I know enjoy thoroughly. See you get what you want and the many players I know that enjoy heroic gaming just the way it is, get what they want.

Devs please note that any time you decide to add challenge to the game you need to also include check boxes. Better yet, each quest needs to have 2 check boxes.

1 for challenge

1 for no challenge

But please do keep the rewards system as is.

[kafrielveddicus]

The option to turn off champion mobs is so you can just keep your Elite streaks right? Champions actually make you earn those streaks IMO. I gave up a 3k elite streak to learn MoD, and nearly 500 streak to learn U24 quests. The world is consistently changing, the champions make this game more fun despite all your disbelief. Old players are returning, some new players might not be up for the challenge and might not stay that is their choice; using them to get points across isn't very effective.
Heroics:
Without Champions:
Normal: zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Hard: zzzzzzzzzz
Elite: zzzzzzzzz

With Champions:
Normal= to learn the quest.
Hard= still learning, but more challenging then normal with champion mobs.
Elite= Fun, cant pike/sleep through, Champions keep you awake and quite a bit of xp for the successful.(Supposed to be the most challenging difficulty in heroics for a reason)

People have gotten into the mindset that elite has to be the first time difficulty because of streaks.

No actually the turning off of champions in Elite has nothing to do with bravery bonus, proof is below;

Running straight elites, by the time you hit level 9 running every quest on elite, you will be running level 6 quests on elite and will no longer be earning BB xp, so literally BB has no effect on xp for those that are enjoying every quest in the game.

SO WHAT DOES IT EFFECT?

It effects non TR'd non uber regular players, especially new players and non-vip players from earning DDO Sotre points thru favor!

WHY DO ALL THE UBER MULTI LIFERS LIKE THIS?

Because all the new non vip players will be paying money into DDO to pay for all the new high level content designed for ubers

WHY SHOULD YOU BELIEVE ME?

why else would super uber players give a rats A$$ about what regular , new, non vip players are doing at low level content

IT's simple economics folks, just stop paying for the ubers, if that is the respect they are going to give you.

[Impaqt]

Your calculations are off, though it is still significantly closer to your 11% than his 200%. The xp from potions, vip, voice and ship buffs are all multiplicative bonuses applied after the quest xp and can thus be ignored. This brings us to 260% on hard with all bonuses versus 335% on Elite with all bonuses, making elite give 20.8% more xp overall. Taking acoount base xp on elite is around 5% higher than on hard, it's more like 26.9%.

Of course, this is with all xp bonuses, which is not possible in all quests. With no bonuses but daily, persistence and no deaths, the number widens all the way to 41.6% more xp on elite than hard.

Now reduce that by the difference in Time.

still... its nowhere near the "Double the XP" claim that so many think they get.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Devs please note that any time you decide to add challenge to the game you need to also include check boxes. Better yet, each quest needs to have 2 check boxes.

1 for challenge

1 for no challenge

But please do keep the rewards system as is.

Why should the rewards system be the same? Honestly why should someone who plays without a challenge be awarded the same as someone who does? So your answer is that "everyone gets a trophy just for showing up"? That is absolute garbage.