Monster Champion Feedback

[Wanesa]

please answer me this.

why would you not run the quest on Hard instead of Elite?

Or even normal?

Why this is issue?

[Paladinsmight]

I think I understand the premise of increasing game difficulty to force players into groups but with an average wait time of over an hour to find a group...and often times a group never presenting itself I have found I have been forced to solo most my time away. This has worked for the last 10 or so lives with little problems. Now even solo play is a waste of time. Myself and the parties I have been in have died more than I think I have ever seen. We just were on an Heroic Elite Siegebreaker...with a small grp of only 3 people..2 fighters/hybrids at level and a cleric. Took two hours for grp to form up so it was as big as we could get it. Total wipe over and over again. All players just quit. We got multiple Monster bosses who could one shot us to death which is neither fun nor entertaining.

With so many gaming options I have no idea why a company is so eager to make a game nearly unplayable. With 10 lives and very solid gear I can hardly stand my own against random "champion" mobs. Everything casts curse now and at such a frequent rate that they should either just permanently add cursed effects to every player or just give out an endless supply of pots. Burned through a 100 stack in 2 quests...worthless! Solo play is near impossible now.

No longer see any value in VIP subscription nor have any desire to continue to play. Very disappointing turbine. If you are looking to make the game more challenging I think you guys went way over board! You should focus more of your effort in connection issues. Btw..every player I know goes dc entering Orchard or Sands every once on a while. Maybe you should look into that.

This is exactly the problem!...

my ENTIRE guild is upset over this and they've all agreed to move to a new game if this is left as is... that would leave me by myself here and I almost feel obligated to stay with as much money as I've paid into DDO (enough tp to have nearly EVERYTHING in the store for account/character and pets stuff etc. +VIP.) I am not interested in the game that my guild has agreed on going to if this stays this way but I do understand their frustration... this isn't fun nor entertaining and it could sink this game's hopes of ever getting a returning player base if it's left like this especially at the lower levels.

I have been here since release signed up on the forms in 2009, and for the first time I really am afraid I may be forced to quit... I say forced because it's not because I really want to but because the game has become so unbearable with update 24 to my friends and even my wife (all of which make up my guild) that they're all willing to move on leaving me, IF I stay, to solo almost permanently against quests that I can't hope to succeed at with things in their current state.

My guild is casual and this "difficulty", if you can call it that, is neither fun nor wanted by them or me. I really am worried this will be the end of the game for me against my will because of yet another bad turbine decision. You'd think your company would have learned with what they did to AC and AC2... but instead you guys keep making the same mistakes.

Simply adding more difficulty does NOT make a game good or fun,
making it easy to buy your way through levels (talking about the boxes with xp stones here) does NOT make a game good or fun,
and forcing players to play in a certain way because you have broken mechanics you haven't fixed (IE: soloing being broken for some classes and too easy for others and thus solution being forced grouping) does NOT make a game good or fun,
and lastly extra chests with vendor trash as some sort of consolation prize for doing these types of things does NOT make up for it!

[gaffneyks]

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback!

It's possible some elements are not working exactly as intended, and of course the design can probably be improved after seeing live play.

My live play this weekend seems to indicate the number of champions is working roughly as intended, but I haven't personally checked every server on a variety of difficulty and levels, which could theoretically result in different experiences for different players . It may also have been a design mistake for orange named minibosses to have dramatically higher chance of being Champion Monsters, since that skews the overall count a great deal. Some players explicitly noted that the 10% mark seemed to be hit closer on quests with more monsters, which fits the model of statistical randomness in general, and probably the overall impact of orange name minibosses, as they're may be less minibosses as a percentage of overall monsters in those quests. (Minibosses need to be separated out from the statistics, in order to get proper data on non-Champion spawn rates for both minibosses and otherwise).



This is currently by design, but the exact list of possible Champion buffs can change in the future.


It's definitely an interesting idea, at least for some of the buffs (perhaps Deathward in particular).


As noted elsewhere, Champion buffs are generally level agnostic, or scale with the quest level, or scale with the monster's base statistics. If a level 20 Champion Buff is giving something like 20d4 damage than the level 5 version would be giving 5d4 damage. These are still up for review and changes, of course.




This is the current general mode that is in use. The miniboss list is separated for Hard and Elite, as well. There are some buffs that don't appear on Hard, or only appear on minibosses or *can't* appear on minibosses. Every buff on Hard does have a chance to show up on Elite as well, for the same type of monster: miniboss or not.



It is currently working as intended that Monster Champions do not show up in Challenges, though that could be looked at in the future.




What I'll say: Damage numbers form Terminal Delirium are not representative of damage numbers in most of DDO, whether or not the enemies are Champions.
I'm not sure where that reference is coming from - that we feel everything in Terminal Delirium or Monster Champions are 100% working as intended.


We love posts from players haven't posted before (and who we can confirm are linked to a unique account or not), though it's unfortunate if the motivation is only because they are upset. Posts from players who have never posted before are certainly something we pay attention to; if someone never felt the need to speak before now and is suddenly motivated, this is clearly one of the most important things they've felt has happened in DDO.

During your live play, did you PUG? did you ask for input for random players you grouped with?

Just wondering, cause everyone i played with this weekend hated it, but I pug'd all weekend. I have not talked with some of the uber gamers from my guild to see what they think. Most that seemed to hate it were casual players( I use that term somewhat loosely as most of them obviously had played for some time as they new the quest and seemed to have knowledge of the basics of the game).

I will post what i hear from the UBER power gamers in the guild when I talk to them. I am don't normally game with them that much, but I am going to log onto raid night to say Goodbye, I am second in command of the guild now, cause I seem to be the only one who has time to mess with the cargo hold . Now and have to find someone else to take over. As I stated in other threads this change has pretty much killed the enjoyment for me so I have decided to try something else so I am going to let my VIP expire and not renew. It ends this week, so I guess that's it. I had hoped to see some change like a check box so I could keep enjoying the game and not be forced to play in a way I found to not be enjoyable. But alas some things are not to be. Sometimes the Dragon wins, and he has in this case. Or the Giant rat wins ......

I think it is great that the DEV staff at turbine actively reads the forums as from my experience that is not common. You might want to find a way to get input from those who don't post on the forum thought.

Thanks for 4 great years
Thanks for all the time you spent making this game what it was.
It has to be hard to try to balance the game with all the different play styles and wants of the player base.

[JOTMON]

Perhaps have champions drop Astral Shard fragments in their chests.. 100 fragments makes an Astral shard.

change chest loot from existing junk table to dice rolls loot..
Heroic Silver dice roll.
Epic Gold dice roll.

[Monkey-Boy]

Also, how a zombie would end up being a champion is beyond me, but that's a side note.

I don't think this should be a side note, and it's one of the things I find inane about this whole change.

Champion ZOMBIES?

Champion RATS?

Champion ROCKS! Yes, that new Lords of Stone quest has FRIGGIN CHAMPION ROCKS.

The animated box parts from the Stormhorns traps now spawn as champions also, it's beyond absurd.

The randomness is just too random.

Quests always had "champions," they were called BOSSES. Now the bosses are push-overs compared to much of the trash, it just makes less sense

[ForwardWu]

I am currently in my last heroic tr (17) life and try to play it slowly and try to solo every possible quest on elite little by little, and I understand the game mechanics and game well that I know how much offense/defense I need as of u21. I am trying to use shuriken to get through my heroic lvs.

And when I am now at lv 10, u24 comes and disrupt my plan. I am an experienced player so I know how to get around this problem, yet just a bit annoying.

To those who say if you cant play a game harder there are plenty of options, e.g. (1) find a balanced group and play elite (2) play normal when you solo (3) rage quit, I think the problem is not only in the increase of difficulty of the game itself, but the implementation as well.

To me, I will say, the difficulty level of soloing heroic elite is like jumping from 20 to 200, and if I am well informed by that I will be happy with that. Yet, in one-update my game plan has changed some much that I still need to rethink what to do with a lv 10 tr toon stuck in the in the middle of heroic tr. I can of course find a way to finish my tr, using whatever method. But the sense of LACK of CONTROL is driving me mad, which the change is quite unexpected to me.

I already start regretting paying money to buy the discounted expansion, even at the rate of a few bucks.

[bartharok]

I don't think this should be a side note, and it's one of the things I find inane about this whole change.

Champion ZOMBIES?

Champion RATS?

Champion ROCKS! Yes, that new Lords of Stone quest has FRIGGIN CHAMPION ROCKS.

The animated box parts from the Stormhorns traps now spawn as champions also, it's beyond absurd.

The randomness is just too random.

Quests always had "champions," they were called BOSSES. Now the bosses are push-overs compared to much of the trash, it just makes less sense

Rats are ok as champions, since they can differ in stats, same with zombies (created by a more powerful spell, or something), but the animated stuff as champions is rather silly.

[Impaqt]

Exp, Favor, and better shinies. Same reason as anyone else.

Xp could be an issue.. but if your are "casual" or not geared enough for elite, are you really a powerleveler looking to gain XP as fast as possible?

Favor could always be gotten by going back over level and running the quest for favor. and in Epic content, people often already have max Favor from the heroic run they did.....

shinies? Sorry, there is no real difference in loot between hard and elite.

Why this is issue?

It is an issue because I believe Turbine made it an issue by giving FAR too many core incentives to running Elite. "XP" being the biggest culprit with the silly "braver Bonus" system.

When they introduced that system, Elite became the new Normal overnight. it was bad for the game back then, and its worse for the game now.

The issue here isnt champions.

the issue is that people feel the NEED to run content over their ability.

[TheTrader]

I have had lots of experience and know what people mean about terminal delirium being really rough with champions inside just because it seriously enhances there damage while you are made of glass! But other then that quest through eh and ee difficulties the biggest problem i see is a hp variance that i believe is just a problem with coding that will be fixed! A few example in eh solo end of the road from high road chain was fight approx 3000 hp spellsword came across one with 13,000 and another with only 6000 hps in the same area leading to final part! I must also add for amusement i spawned greenstalker in the same area as a champion and he only had 10,000 approx hps! As for the amount of damage they do on ee it tends to be pushing to full parties with rolls like healer caster rogue and tanks because as i have been working on another competitionist in my rogue life a lot of those champions seem to be doing a lot more damage then others and i know it is vulnerability i see the debuff poping up on below my buff bar but it makes toons like that harder to play in groups since on my server it tends to be a bring your own healing don't die attitude! So beside looking into the hps variable and the amount of damage some of these guys are doing maybe remove the vulnerability buff altogether i like the idea of champions it is not unlike players in the game they have variable experience and with experience come better gear better damage more hps ect. The one last note i would make is there is a vast difference in champion spawns in low kill count quests then higher ones which has been acknowledged by a dev somewhere around page 25 of this forum, is to remind the developers that dudgeon scaling ect was put in to allow those who like to solo play vs grouping to do so champions maybe could scale with this especially in the lower kill count quests like i experienced in lost in the swamp where more then 25% was champions vs. end of the road where it was more like 10%. One more funny not watch out for those shadow champions they can do a nasty sneak attack if you don't keep track of that crown.

[Paranormaliz]

I can understand one reason why those OP players enjoy this addition of these champs!
It makes it harder for us newbie players to ever reach the same status they have achieved over the years.
So they feel more important and should be looked up to.
We all started as a newbie at one point in time and I can imagine it wasn't easy getting to their status now, but that does not mean they should want it even harder for others to achieve the same status they now enjoy!
If players quit because it gets more difficult to get ahead in this game, then slowly the game will die, and all your work then means nothing when you don't have a game to play anymore.
They want to introduce champs into quests, then at least have an extra reward for killing champs, and I don't mean chest, make up for the exp we lost cause of the deaths incurred due to the champs being present in the quest.
I am sitting and waiting to see what they do with this issue, and if it works out in a way I don't appreciate, I will move on, there are plenty more games on the internet. I play games to pass the time away, to enjoy my free time, not to get frustrated and depressed.
It's your call!

[jalont]

I can understand one reason why those OP players enjoy this addition of these champs!
It makes it harder for us newbie players to ever reach the same status they have achieved over the years.
So they feel more important and should be looked up to.
We all started as a newbie at one point in time and I can imagine it wasn't easy getting to their status now, but that does not mean they should want it even harder for others to achieve the same status they now enjoy!
If players quit because it gets more difficult to get ahead in this game, then slowly the game will die, and all your work then means nothing when you don't have a game to play anymore.
They want to introduce champs into quests, then at least have an extra reward for killing champs, and I don't mean chest, make up for the exp we lost cause of the deaths incurred due to the champs being present in the quest.
I am sitting and waiting to see what they do with this issue, and if it works out in a way I don't appreciate, I will move on, there are plenty more games on the internet. I play games to pass the time away, to enjoy my free time, not to get frustrated and depressed.
It's your call!

This is just false. It now takes an incredibly less amount of xp to level. It takes an incredibly less amount of time to level/TR. New players have it easier, even with these changes to champion, than we ever had in the past.

[Inoukchuk]

I don't think this should be a side note, and it's one of the things I find inane about this whole change.

Champion ZOMBIES?

Champion RATS?

Champion ROCKS! Yes, that new Lords of Stone quest has FRIGGIN CHAMPION ROCKS.

The animated box parts from the Stormhorns traps now spawn as champions also, it's beyond absurd.

The randomness is just too random.

Quests always had "champions," they were called BOSSES. Now the bosses are push-overs compared to much of the trash, it just makes less sense

I agree that it doesn't make sense that any random monster can be a champion (including non-combat NPCs) or that champions are often harder than the existing bosses or mini-bosses in quests. I think the rule should be that a champion should be roughly equal to an orange named mob, and a champion orange named (which should be a small % just like champions) should rival but not equal a red named. And then the % should be decreased slightly, to maybe half of what it is now. As it stands I never wonder if an encounter will have a champion, I just wonder how many. But then in my exp it's more like 20-25% of mobs than the stated 10% turbine claims.

*edit* BTW, there is a thread to track Champion %, I encourage you all to post your own stats there if you can track it.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

The chest drops are nice. It's fun to see 3 or 4 chests in the middle of a quest from a huge spawn of champions like I saw this morning in Belly of the Beast EH.

Champions make Hard challenging again. Doable and Challenging.

Champions make Elite truly difficult again for more challenge.

But a few chests of random loot are not a commensurate with the added difficulty.

Champions should give a flat XP gain based on CR. Something like 15 XP/Level on hard and 25 XP/Level on Elite.

Or give a % bump in XP like +.05% per champion defeated on Hard and +1% on Elite.

The chests can stay or go...I like the idea of Astral Shard frags dropping in the chests as well. 1 AS/1000 Frags seems fair considering they are also a store item. Making these more available in quests would stifle some of the P2W mullarky people throw around all willy-nilly too.

[jalont]

I don't think this should be a side note, and it's one of the things I find inane about this whole change.

Champion ZOMBIES?

Champion RATS?

Champion ROCKS! Yes, that new Lords of Stone quest has FRIGGIN CHAMPION ROCKS.

The animated box parts from the Stormhorns traps now spawn as champions also, it's beyond absurd.

The randomness is just too random.

Quests always had "champions," they were called BOSSES. Now the bosses are push-overs compared to much of the trash, it just makes less sense

I agree, but this is what you get when you have a player base absolutely scared of a rebalancing of their power and a bare-bones dev team that doesn't have the resources to rebalance past content.

It's better than the alternative.

[kafrielveddicus]

This is an enormous fallacy.

I had no thoughts about quitting or cancelling my VIP until these champions came into the picture. I liked DDO how it was and understood/accepted that some game elements would be changed, others added, and still others removed. What I do NOT accept is lazy developer decisions that cheapen the player experience. The goal of any game developer should be to maximize the fun for the players while maintaining the health of the game (this in turn leads to profit, so they can make a living). Champions fail on both ends of this. They are not fun, they tax the player's time and resources while giving nothing in return, and they further fragment an already too small player base--which in turn leads to people quitting.

You see the problem here? It isn't about what day it happens. It's about what happens. If you truly understood the concerns of the game's health, you would oppose this change too.

Havent been on since the first day of the update and really dont have the urge to play, champions have broken a perfectly enjoyable game!

It is likely this will spell the demise of our permadeath guild, and for me the single only reason I play the game.

Us Permadeathers never cared for Endgame nor Epic Elites, but now the basic heroic game is broken for us, it was a great run but DDO has run its course.

P.S. I will monitor for changes but even then the guild will likely be dispersed by the time that happens

[kafrielveddicus]

Pretty much destroys the permadeath concept when mobs can one shot critical damage, but so be it, it will likely kill permadeath style altogether, that will be the end of my ddo gaming as it happens.

My recommendations for new and casual players;
Designed to slow down your acquisition of free DDO store points to buy adventure packs -> means they are trying to suck money out of you
Designed to create more instadeaths for Melees not preventable by gear -> means they are trying to suck more money out of you
Designed to create more inventory clutter with extra chests, buy more inventory -> means they are trying to suck money out of you
Designed to get you to burn thru more HP and SP, buy more HP and SP pots -> means they are trying to suck more money out of you
Designed to slow down favor to acquire things like drow, 32 point, monk -> means they are trying to suck more money out of you

My recommendations to the DEVS;
Save the Monster Champions for the chest thumpers that run end game EPIC ELITE -> more fun for the rest of the player base
If not allow a check box on opening quest for players to opt to have Champions -> more fun for the player base as they get to choose their playstyle

Other comments in general regarding the actual continued existence of the champions;
Full fortification for players should still be full fortification
NO mob should be hitting for more damage than an actual toon at that level can hit, no crits if fortification is present
No trash mob should be more difficult then the end boss or red named quest bosses located in quest

Overall, think these mobs are a stupid fix, would have been better to adjust all the current mobs stats in each setting.

P.S. played some Heroic elites level 12 with two other toons in guild range level 15-18 and if it wasnt for the fact that I was an ARTIFICER and kiting all the crowned mobs the other two toons would have been smoked for sure repeatedly, this will make the game lead to all non-melee toons which pretty much is all my personal builds anyways, but kills it for those that enjoy playing melee.

Hoping to continue to play this game and enjoy it.

[SirShen]

Champions are alot more then 10%.

Please give a tick box before you enter a quest if you want Champions, that way it will please those that want Champions and also please those that dont.

[ForwardWu]

Just found that this argument keep popping up for defending why the champion implementation is justified.

Along this line of thought, before u24, in heroic content, players are rewarded more than what they should in running quests. Because elite is so easy so everyone will only run elite to max favor/exp etc.

So turbine now remove the easy button, so for those who are not good enough cannot play elite and get the large reward.

Defenders still talk about game difficulty, game balance, reward....

It is not just about the game mechanics, it is about human PSYCHOLOGY........

Imagine your boss is paying salary more than what you worth, then suddenly all staff in company need to do a salary cut of 60% (its the elite bb ->heroic xp)
If, you are a sane person, you will not curse your boss, and smile happily that finally you are justified to get the proper amount of salary income, and said to yourself if I want more money, I can do 3 jobs at the same time to get similar income before the salary cut.

You wont feel lack of control.

I think I will not rage-quit the job.....and find another one which still pay me 40% of my last salary. I dont feel being punished.

and remember, in the DDO scenario, you can just walk away with your subscription....

[Kaytis]

That way I would be sitting with an extra 80 quid in my account now, because I wouldn't have renewed VIP with this mechanic the way it is.

Turbine might be willing to refund your money. This was a huge change to the game mechanics and since you are early into the renewal they could perhaps see your point.

[cdemeritt]

I can understand one reason why those OP players enjoy this addition of these champs!
It makes it harder for us newbie players to ever reach the same status they have achieved over the years.
So they feel more important and should be looked up to.
We all started as a newbie at one point in time and I can imagine it wasn't easy getting to their status now, but that does not mean they should want it even harder for others to achieve the same status they now enjoy!
If players quit because it gets more difficult to get ahead in this game, then slowly the game will die, and all your work then means nothing when you don't have a game to play anymore.
They want to introduce champs into quests, then at least have an extra reward for killing champs, and I don't mean chest, make up for the exp we lost cause of the deaths incurred due to the champs being present in the quest.
I am sitting and waiting to see what they do with this issue, and if it works out in a way I don't appreciate, I will move on, there are plenty more games on the internet. I play games to pass the time away, to enjoy my free time, not to get frustrated and depressed.
It's your call!

Ah, No. What we want is you to learn how to deal with them and get better, not whine they are too hard and make the game easier.... The game is super easy already. As have been stated many many times, Elite isn't the only difficulty... If it is too tough, drop to hard... I can Solo Enorm Temple of Vol without difficulty, but there is no way I could solo EE temple of Vol... Yet I still have several Epic Necro items... Gear is not difficult to gain on Normal. This mindset of Elite is the only choice is a major problem... Yet It is still easy and fast to get to 20/28... and I've done it several times, using only the gear I find.

Dev's: I think you have a no win situation here... If you leave things as is, some/many people will quit... Yet if you remove it, Some/many will quit. I personally, while unsure how I like the champs, will be very upset if you just do away with them, or even tone them down too much, as they, with some exceptions, are not that bad, and quests are still being steamrolled... and removal will be seen as capitulation to people unwilling to try to grow, and I suspect further drive that wedge between new players and vets...

Just to make sure I wasn't underestimating them on heroic, I tried several toons at several different Levels from 27EE to 2HE, and well, yeah, sometimes they hurt... But listening to gen chat, people were upset that their level 2 sorc got killed in a Elite Kobolds New Ringleader...

Elite should be hard, and the risk of death on Elite should be there... people have become soft...