Monster Champion Feedback

[Samones]

As I was fighting a few quests earlier, I was thinking about how a lot of people have been requesting rewards for defeating champions, not just named champions. I couldn't help but think similarly since they do take up a decent investment, either in resources such as extra healing or sp for damage or even just time through kiting and other tactics. Still, with the rate that they seem to be spawning, especially in longer quests, a chest per champion seems a bit overkill. Would it be possible to instead implement a very small xp boost or the like? It could be something similar to what we already have, and could either be a flat rate (such as +10/15/25% for killing 5/10/20 champions) or one which scaled in proportion to the length of the quest and number of mobs spawning. Or maybe just a flat +1% per champion kill might be fun. It wouldn't be a huge boost, but at least it would help give incentive to go after them and take the risk of running hard and elite quests (particularly for those of us who aren't quite as skilled in building characters and executing those builds).

[Cruxader]

I thought LD was the default no brainer melee destiny

I said from the beginning that Paladins didn't need to be changed, but losing +1(W) after 1 update really shouldn't affect Paladins to the point that they are back to the bottom of the melee pile again like some are claiming. I seriously have a hard time believing Paladins got nerfed hard with that change though.

Not everyone like being forced to use LD just because everyone decides that making that destiny way OP with 3 stacks of blitz to start with is fine for their barb or fighter builds. People like choices, as a Paladin Holy Sword allowed Pallys to make choices to stay in divine destinies if they liked (stay within their role play...) and still pack a competitive punch.

If you can't imagine the differences then I recommend first play a Paladin with their before update 23 lack of melee power, they were at a huge disadvantage as melees. This was well known and acknowledged - therefore the solution was Holy Sword, which made them competitive melees again, then they nerfed Holy Sword for no reason - as was stated +1w does not make or break the game, but it does revert Pallys to much the same as they were pre-U23, which is why they addressed them with Holy Sword in U23 to begin with...

Revert back to the original Well thought out Holy Sword design. The Holy Sword nerf is not needed for any reason and is not acceptable to Pallys that waited years to become relevent melee players again- only to get nerfed again just a few months after.

[Ayseifn]

Such a long post, still zero new information, just repeating what we already know, and some smoke. To those guys talking a lot without telling anything I usually advice to switch to a better fitting job, like politician or lawyer. Really, you gave us nothing, while we asked about a lot of things - what about checkbox, reducing the spawn rate, exclude champs from Korthos quests, etc.?! Checking in just to say nothing only proving that you are not listening, I don't know why people are bothering to give feedback on Lamma... or here.

Probably still want more feedback on them in general and not have the discussion change to talk about whatever changes they're proposing. The update is still new and player feedback seems very divided, so no need to rush into things just yet.

[Knobull]

I seriously have a hard time believing Paladins got nerfed hard with that change though.

I think this implies that you do not play the class? Seeing(playing) is believing. (Also, lets leave that other "epic" game out of it, that is not DDO, it is some other game... and the source of much of the current problems.)

[Qhualor]

Not everyone like being forced to use LD just because everyone decides that making that destiny way OP with 3 stacks of blitz to start with is fine for their barb or fighter builds. People like choices, as a Paladin Holy Sword allowed Pallys to make choices to stay in divine destinies if they liked (stay within their role play...) and still pack a competitive punch.

If you can't imagine the differences then I recommend first play a Paladin with their before update 23 lack of melee power, they were at a huge disadvantage as melees. This was well known and acknowledged - therefore the solution was Holy Sword, which made them competitive melees again, then they nerfed Holy Sword for no reason - as was stated +1w does not make or break the game, but it does revert Pallys to much the same as they were pre-U23, which is why they addressed them with Holy Sword in U23 to begin with...

Revert back to the original Well thought out Holy Sword design. The Holy Sword nerf is not needed for any reason and is not acceptable to Pallys that waited years to become relevent melee players again- only to get nerfed again just a few months after.

well I have played paladins before they got the bump and after. I didn't think paladins were so far behind in dps like some claimed, but when they did get updated I thought they were about right. even losing the +1(W), paladins still got a huge boost across the board. im still seeing paladins being played and tearing apart mobs just like before.

if people feel their paladin lost too much dps from this change, its most likely not the +1(W) that's the problem. it most likely goes deeper than that.

anyways, this is off topic and we should get back to our regularly scheduled forum program.

[Ayseifn]

I think this implies that you do not play the class? Seeing(playing) is believing. (Also, lets leave that other "epic" game out of it, that is not DDO, it is some other game... and the source of much of the current problems.)

Played a centred kensei before the update but TRed into a paladin after, even with champs the paladin is much much better. More defence, more DPS, more SP and only really lost the weak manyshot. Maybe it's a SnB problem IDK, if so leaving the +w on shields could have been fine.

[Cruxader]

well I have played paladins before they got the bump and after. I didn't think paladins were so far behind in dps like some claimed, but when they did get updated I thought they were about right. even losing the +1(W), paladins still got a huge boost across the board. im still seeing paladins being played and tearing apart mobs just like before.

if people feel their paladin lost too much DPS from this change, its most likely not the +1(W) that's the problem. it most likely goes deeper than that.

anyways, this is off topic and we should get back to our regularly scheduled forum program.

Agree, wish there was a thread for the Holy Sword nerf as there are a lot of angry VIP Pally players now I play with all the time that are sick of it ...

Also agree the problems go deeper than just nerfing +W dmg (and also simultaneous nerfing of the holy Sword enhancement bonus, being nearly eliminated from +2 to a meager +1.) It also has also to do with amping Master's Blitz to 3 stacks and forcing all melees out of Divine Destinies into LD, Holy Sword as correctly designed in U23 allowed a Pally to stay in a divine destiny (not cookie cutter LD melee build) and remain competitive with DPS, to achieve balance in Melee builds between Pallys and the rest.

Now in this build not only is Holy Sword Nerfed, but simultaneously Master's Blitz is amped to 3 starting stacks (forcing all pallys out of Divine Destinies and eliminating that sort of Pally Divine role). Reverting Holy Sword back to its correct original design would at least let Pally's chose to stay in Divine destinies (not be forced into LD like all other melees) and still remain relatively competitive- you see the logic now?

[Livmo]

I got one shotted a few times this weekend too. That hasn't happened in a long time! Is this how the baddies feel after we one shot them? The rage and anger? Don't get me wrong I was upset the first couple of times it happnend to me as well.

I'll admit I'm a FoD fan. I love casting Destruction too. I'll neg level or Energy Drain if I have to, to get my spells to go off.

We finger them, so I guess it should be OK that they get to finger us back once and a while. We still get the upper hand on them for the most part in the new. Unfotunately we have to take it on the chin once and while and use a shrine.

Poor Kobold been working all day for my loot and upgrades and what can he afford to buy at the bar after work? A Dirty Kobold. So sad.

[Knobull]

I bet the beancounters are looking at the Google Analytics (UA-245108-1) and saying, look at all these hits, this change is great for the game!

[Braegan]

I bet the beancounters are looking at the Google Analytics (UA-245108-1) and saying, look at all these hits, this change is great for the game!

And they'd be right, it is a great change for the game!

[Blackheartox]

Agree, wish there was a thread for the Holy Sword nerf as there are a lot of angry VIP Pally players now I play with all the time that are sick of it ...

Also agree the problems go deeper than just nerfing +W dmg (and also simultaneous nerfing of the holy Sword enhancement bonus, being nearly eliminated from +2 to a meager +1.) It also has also to do with amping Master's Blitz to 3 stacks and forcing all melees out of Divine Destinies into LD, Holy Sword as correctly designed in U23 allowed a Pally to stay in a divine destiny (not cookie cutter LD melee build) and remain competitive with DPS, to achieve balance in Melee builds between Pallys and the rest.

Now in this build not only is Holy Sword Nerfed, but simultaneously Master's Blitz is amped to 3 starting stacks (forcing all pallys out of Divine Destinies and eliminating that sort of Pally Divine role). Reverting Holy Sword back to its correct original design would at least let Pally's chose to stay in Divine destinies (not be forced into LD like all other melees) and still remain relatively competitive- you see the logic now?

Palies are still best non exploit melle class.
Palies have saves, best selfhealing and superb damage mitigation.
Palies have a spell that gives them 1 critical multiplier and 1 critical range and 1 enchantment bonus that costs 0 ap.
Palies also have a spell that gives them 10% dstrike that costs 0 ap.
Palies have fixed smite animation, making 10 melle power now a buff you can count into dps.
Palies have the best use of healing amp changes.

Where did palie got nerfed so bad that its not worth to play a palie anymore?
Where is a palie forced to play in dreadnought instead in crusader?
Players who knew how to play blitz before this update never had issues to get 10 stacks and keep anyways.
Explain to me, what is so gamebreaking in palie change that you think that they are put on the worst spot?

I personally think palies are still the best melle, even after barb changes and that the nerf was rather minor compared to all the benefits that come with the class.

If i was the one asked i would be more brutal.
Aplly holy sword to only vs evil, only on swords and be a multiselector between multi or range only.
And even with that they would still be one of best melles considering the damage mitigation they poses.

Be happy you only lose 1 w and 1 enchantment bonus, be very very happy.

And to be fair, ask yourself, was the implementation of holy sword balanced?

[HatsuharuZ]

I just wanted to point out that if monster champion buffs were dispellable, it would be a very good idea for the devs to change how dispelling effects work.

Dispelling is one of those mechanics that are very hard for players to tell if they are going to work or not. Does the CR of a given spellcasting mob equal its' caster level? I have no idea. If it were, then I would say that dispelling is horribly useless in epic level content. If not... then it's still impractical. If I don't know how useful a spell is going to be, I as a spellcaster am not going to bother with it.

Furthermore, unlike other offensive spells they work by *caster level* checks, not DCs. So, it's not like you an actually build to be a good dispeller, even if such a role were generally useful.

Suggestion: Remove the CL check and increase the cooldowns of Dispelling spells. If you want, make it so that, depending on how powerful the spell is, it removes more effects from the target. "Lesser Dispel" would remove a single magical effect, while "Mordenkeinen's Disjunction" would remove 2d4 effects, for example.

[Cruxader]

Palies are still best non exploit melle class.
Palies have saves, best selfhealing and superb damage mitigation.
Palies have a spell that gives them 1 critical multiplier and 1 critical range and 1 enchantment bonus that costs 0 ap.
Palies also have a spell that gives them 10% dstrike that costs 0 ap.
Palies have fixed smite animation, making 10 melle power now a buff you can count into dps.
Palies have the best use of healing amp changes.

Where did palie got nerfed so bad that its not worth to play a palie anymore?
Where is a palie forced to play in dreadnought instead in crusader?
Players who knew how to play blitz before this update never had issues to get 10 stacks and keep anyways.
Explain to me, what is so gamebreaking in palie change that you think that they are put on the worst spot?

I personally think palies are still the best melle, even after barb changes and that the nerf was rather minor compared to all the benefits that come with the class.

If i was the one asked i would be more brutal.
Aplly holy sword to only vs evil, only on swords and be a multiselector between multi or range only.
And even with that they would still be one of best melles considering the damage mitigation they poses.

Be happy you only lose 1 w and 1 enchantment bonus, be very very happy.

And to be fair, ask yourself, was the implementation of holy sword balanced?

Yes the Holy Sword implementation was necessary and long overdue- that is why they implemented it- it was an acknolwledged problem for years that Pallys put out less DPS than other melees classes.

As I explained above... the problems go deeper than just nerfing +W dmg (and also simultaneous nerfing of the holy Sword enhancement bonus, being nearly eliminated from +2 to a meager +1.) It also has also to do with amping Master's Blitz to 3 stacks and forcing all melees out of Divine Destinies into LD, Holy Sword as correctly designed in U23 allowed a Pally to stay in a divine destiny (not cookie cutter LD melee build) and remain competitive with DPS, to achieve balance in Melee builds between Pallys and the rest.

I have an LD barb that can now put out 10,000+ HP crits and my divine destiny Pally (which has much better gear and many more ETRs) under its best circumstances never got anywhere even close to that even with the U23 Holy Sword, much less the nerfed u24 Holy Sword, so why not jut let Pallys keep their option of running in Dinive destiny using the original Holy Sword instead of nerfing it, putting LD-master's blitz on steroids- and forcing everyone to play cookie cutter LD melees? Why not revert the Holy Sword nerf so divine Pallys (not cookie cutter LD blitzers) can play as competitive DPS threats, as they were before they got jacked in U24?

Being factual - LD with its new steroidal version of master blitz, compared to a divine Pally with their nerfed Holy sword, is now extraordinarily Unbalanced (yet again- reverting to years of DPS unbalance for Pallys again...) that fact is indisputable, and it why they re-implemented Holy Sword in the first place in U23 to address that indisputable DPS imbalance. I am not suggesting they nerf the new ultra master's blitz, but rather just allow Pallys to keep their original U23 Holy Sword spell so they can stay in Divine Destinies if they so chose and allow more melle flavor instead of forcing everyone into a 1-size fits all LD melee build.

That is a very reasonable, fair and fact-based request.

[Ayseifn]

Yes the Holy Sword implementation was necessary and long overdue- that is why they implemented it- it was an acknolwledged problem for years that Pallys put out less DPS than other melees classes.

As I explained above... the problems go deeper than just nerfing +W dmg (and also simultaneous nerfing of the holy Sword enhancement bonus, being nearly eliminated from +2 to a meager +1.) It also has also to do with amping Master's Blitz to 3 stacks and forcing all melees out of Divine Destinies into LD, Holy Sword as correctly designed in U23 allowed a Pally to stay in a divine destiny (not cookie cutter LD melee build) and remain competitive with DPS, to achieve balance in Melee builds between Pallys and the rest.

I have an LD barb that can now put out 10,000+ HP crits and my divine destiny Pally (which has much better gear and many more ETRs) under its best circumstances never got anywhere even close to that even with the U23 Holy Sword, much less the nerfed u24 Holy Sword, so why not jut let Pallys keep their option of running in Dinive destiny using the original Holy Sword instead of nerfing it, putting LD-master's blitz on steroids- and forcing everyone to play cookie cutter LD melees? Why not revert the Holy Sword nerf so divine Pallys (not cookie cutter LD blitzers) can play as competitive DPS threats, as they were before they got jacked in U24?

Being factual - LD with its new steroidal version of master blitz, compared to a divine Pally with their nerfed Holy sword, is now extraordinarily Unbalanced (yet again- reverting to years of DPS unbalance for Pallys again...) that fact is indisputable, and it why they re-implemented Holy Sword in the first place in U23 to address that indisputable DPS imbalance. I am not suggesting they nerf the new ultra master's blitz, but rather just allow Pallys to keep their original U23 Holy Sword spell so they can stay in Divine Destinies if they so chose and allow more melle flavor instead of forcing everyone into a 1-size fits all LD melee build.

That is a very reasonable, fair and fact-based request.

So it's ok for barbs not to be in their destiny sphere but no paladins? This also sound more like you have issues with Divine Crusader and not paladins specifically, DC was also nerfed from 4 or something Melee Power to 3 why aren't you railing against that? Seems like a bigger nerf than 1W.

[Qhualor]

Yes the Holy Sword implementation was necessary and long overdue- that is why they implemented it- it was an acknolwledged problem for years that Pallys put out less DPS than other melees classes.

As I explained above... the problems go deeper than just nerfing +W dmg (and also simultaneous nerfing of the holy Sword enhancement bonus, being nearly eliminated from +2 to a meager +1.) It also has also to do with amping Master's Blitz to 3 stacks and forcing all melees out of Divine Destinies into LD, Holy Sword as correctly designed in U23 allowed a Pally to stay in a divine destiny (not cookie cutter LD melee build) and remain competitive with DPS, to achieve balance in Melee builds between Pallys and the rest.

I have an LD barb that can now put out 10,000+ HP crits and my divine destiny Pally (which has much better gear and many more ETRs) under its best circumstances never got anywhere even close to that even with the U23 Holy Sword, much less the nerfed u24 Holy Sword, so why not jut let Pallys keep their option of running in Dinive destiny using the original Holy Sword instead of nerfing it, putting LD-master's blitz on steroids- and forcing everyone to play cookie cutter LD melees? Why not revert the Holy Sword nerf so divine Pallys (not cookie cutter LD blitzers) can play as competitive DPS threats, as they were before they got jacked in U24?

Being factual - LD with its new steroidal version of master blitz, compared to a divine Pally with their nerfed Holy sword, is now extraordinarily Unbalanced (yet again- reverting to years of DPS unbalance for Pallys again...) that fact is indisputable, and it why they re-implemented Holy Sword in the first place in U23 to address that indisputable DPS imbalance. I am not suggesting they nerf the new ultra master's blitz, but rather just allow Pallys to keep their original U23 Holy Sword spell so they can stay in Divine Destinies if they so chose and allow more melle flavor instead of forcing everyone into a 1-size fits all LD melee build.

That is a very reasonable, fair and fact-based request.

hey now, you start talking about a barb dealing 10k crits and some will ask for video proof because they cant believe that a barb does damage like that :P

oh and to stay on topic, Champions rule!

[Knobull]

And they'd be right, it is a great change for the game!

I guess you missed the point, but that's OK. The old developers will know what I mean.

I'm kind of ambivalent about the champs, it has broken some quests but is not the end of the world.

[OzDrew]

Hate them, especially in heroics. My opinion. Calling me a whiner (or me calling you a whiner) is a pointless ad hominem attack and says more about the one who needs to resort to it than the one they are attacking.

People don't want to give up their heroic elite streaks if champions prevent it. The tyranny of time zones makes grouping extremely difficult for some and claiming that most players should not be able to solo elite totally ignores the way the game has changed. Taking something away after allowing it for so long will always create resentment, telling people its more fun when many are clearly communicating it is not is unhelpful and patronizing. An analogy would be to remove ALL self healing as people were never intended to run quests without at least a hire and on higher difficulties a dedicated healer. Hey! It will be more fun! (yes I know that's a bit extreme, just trying to be illustrative). Things have changed.

But my main objection is that challenge without reward simply becomes increased grind. Quests take much longer at any level and chests full of vendor trash are not a reward. After slogging solo through Inferno and Temple of Vol what had seemed like a good idea had quickly shown itself to be poorly implemented and absolutely not fun in any way. (Off topic) The terrible changes to hirelings that Turbine seem to have their fingers in their ears about only increase the pain. (Back on topic) Meaningful experience rewards are most likely the only thing that would make them bearable for me. Not junk loot, not renown, not some pointless tally of how many I killed. Make them selectable (so those who like them can leave them on) and make them give XP (hey in a party I'd leave them on for some *meaningful* XP).

(Off topic again) Oh and change hires back to the way they were please!

[Kaipakta]

In my experience thus far with the champs on HE quests I have the following notes:

They are quite common- for instance in House J's "Graverobber" I regularly encountered 3-4 champion dread zombies per group. Also, how a zombie would end up being a champion is beyond me, but that's a side note.

When champions appear as the update described them, occasionally (max 1 per group), they effectively act as a yellow named boss. Because of this special boss status, one can use CC on them. However as stated by several other players and observed by myself these champion trash mobs are often tougher than their red-name, final boss counterparts. In addition to their added toughness, they (once again as stated earlier) tend to spawn in groups, further adding to the ludicrous nature of their strength vs their boss counterparts.

In other words, if champs were allowed in raids the Pit Fiend could be overtaken by one of his devils, or the master artificer wouldn't be a master artificer anymore, etc etc


I am all for making this game more difficult, but I think this is a silly way of going about it. I would love to see increased difficulty on raid bosses/more attack mechanics at their disposal. For that matter, red names could use a buff too, after all they're meant to be the big finishing end fight right?

[redoubt]

I respctfully disagree hre for the CC build.

With this change, a CC spec'ed Wiz or Bard, even first life can now do very well.

The Champions are very tough compared to an average trash.

So one Charmed Champ Chump on your side can clear a room pretty fast.

This makes CC strategy not as much the long chore it was by a very great deal, at least from my few days of soloing just such a build since the change.

Of course, you will still have to kill that Champion eventually and the boss but alone they are not so bad.

I am very glad to see that CC might be in vogue again. Its been years since that has happened. My concern with it is that building good CC means giving up a lot of damage. Back when you could auto crit on held mobs and wack them with maiming rocksplitters, you could CC them and do some dps. But in todays game where trash mobs have 10s of thousands of HP, the DPS on a CC character is lacking.

I'm not saying that every enchanter should be able to solo EE. I know that's never gonna happen. But maybe we could get the charm spells un-nerfed so we can at least use them in epic content. At the current 1/8 to 1/16 save interval, charm type spells are a waste of spell points.

Not to argue with you, but just to point out... You don't have to do the quest at Level to get the favor...

Just Running quests on Normal can get you to 20. you can then go back and run many quests on Elite for Favor. There are Some quests such as Stealthy Repossession that I usually skip until such time as I can run it with a red alert and not worry... 3000 favor is actually very simple to achieve using this method. If you have a Lvl 15-20 character that has problems running an Elite Waterworks, even with the champion system, there is deeper problems than the champion system...

While you are correct, what you are suggesting is not fun. I've wanted to be able to start iconic classes at level 1 since they were launched because I hate running quests over level just to get favor. Its boring and tedious. I'd rather start at level one and have to earn all the xp up to 15 and get the favor as I go.

What you are offering as an alternative is roughly the same.

well I have played paladins before they got the bump and after. I didn't think paladins were so far behind in dps like some claimed, but when they did get updated I thought they were about right. even losing the +1(W), paladins still got a huge boost across the board. im still seeing paladins being played and tearing apart mobs just like before.

if people feel their paladin lost too much dps from this change, its most likely not the +1(W) that's the problem. it most likely goes deeper than that.

anyways, this is off topic and we should get back to our regularly scheduled forum program.

While some believe that EE was too easy before the champions, some of use felt EE was quite the challenge. Last update was the FIRST time I had ever been able to do ANY stormhorns on EE. I got the first two done. I was not able to complete Breaking the Ranks (and I fear what it looks like now with champions.)

I've also looked at the damage rating on my un-upgraded nightmare and my T2 TF B.Sword. Both went down about 13 points. My good crits are around 1500. Maybe that's because I'm not a BF THF with T3 greatwhatever or ESOS (I don't know what the current best THF weapon is.) Anyway, I can tell you that on a vanguard I'm doing good damage, but nothing spectacular. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but my paladin can feel the loss of that 1W.

Palies are still best non exploit melle class.
Palies have saves, best selfhealing and superb damage mitigation.
Palies have a spell that gives them 1 critical multiplier and 1 critical range and 1 enchantment bonus that costs 0 ap.
Palies also have a spell that gives them 10% dstrike that costs 0 ap.
Palies have fixed smite animation, making 10 melle power now a buff you can count into dps.
Palies have the best use of healing amp changes.

We've been through this before. You are talking about multiple builds that happen to be based on Paladin. Not a single build that does all of that at once.

Be happy you only lose 1 w and 1 enchantment bonus, be very very happy.

/grovel

Oh thank you, oh benevolent Blackheart sir. Thank you that you did not whip us further. Thank you that we can now play in your version of the game. We are very sorry that we did not see your way as perfect from the start. Thank you, oh lordship that you did not also take away our crit boost. We are sorry that we cannot play as well as you and should simply shut the up and go away and stop ruining your game. Thank you, your worship for allowing us to grovel in your glory, we promise to never try to have fun again, unless it is in accordance with your will.

/grovel more.

[Izumar]

Audio feedback from my youtube channel below - if some developer eyes are getting tired from all the reading.

I watched the video. It seems disconnected from what you are saying in it. You are saying how people will need to group more and use tactics to overcome the new difficulty while completely disrespecting the threat posed by the mobs. Dungeon alert, run through traps and general faceroll. You should have died three times playing like this.

The champs need to be geared towards countering this stuff. Maybe a few intercession champs would have done you good there.