Monster Champion Feedback

[Lonnbeimnech]

The only error was not to add a simple checkbox.

You want more challenge/loot? Tick checkbox.

You want to run as you did before U24? Do not tick the checkbox.

Done.

If you do this all the whiners about champion gone.

There is a "checkbox", normal/hard/elite >.>

[Archangel666]

Brand new players may do elites, but its because of player expectations, not dev expectations. Or peer pressure, to use another term.

There's also the fact that compared to just a few years ago, the playerbase is miniscule, meaning less players to group with and less choices when it comes to difficulty.

For newer players who might want to try say Heroic Hard and actually have the confidence to throw up an LFM (Rarer than you might think, many of them are quite shy), only to have the LFM sit there with nobody joining.

Eventually they either run Normal, even though they want to try harder difficulties, join an Elite PuG since that's all they can find which may well be beyond their capabilities, or they move on (Further exacerbating the shrinking playerbase).

[dunklezhan]

Thank you for the dedicated thread, and for the responses.

I haven't played elite yet - I've heard the stories and know when I'm outgunned. I won't even bother to try. That is NOT a complaint, elite should be for the best and I am very much not in that bracket, I have no real business being there on my own.

So thank you for the champions too

Speaking for hard and EH, which I have played since the update, I think the spawn rate is too high and the resultant mobs not scary enough. I would rather have fewer spawns that are really tough than run into packs of mobs with multiple crowns which just hit a little harder or have true seeing. They don't add much except an easy way to identify your first targets (priority order now goes: crowned caster>caster>crowned anything else>everything else). If elite is now really for the elite, then hard needs to be just a little bit harder please - more in line with what elite was before the update in my view which is to say: tough, but certainly doable with just a bit of experience and a half decent build - and I'd rather have that achieved by way of challenging but fewer crowns, than with lots of crowns which are only a teensy bit tougher than the other mobs.

[DaGreat1]

I did the new quest Mask of Deception yesterday, and then went to finish Cannith quests (Blown to Bits and Schemes of the Enemy), all on elite.

In Mask of Deception, nothing to say, but my friend and I thought there was a little too much champions in Cannith Quests. We don't mind the challenge. Many quests sure need a boost in that area. However, when fighting Hunter and Gatherer in Blown to Bits, we also had 2 artificers champions et 1 tempest champion to fight at the same time (with other non-champions mob, of course)

and in Schemes of the Enemy, not much to say, except somewhere, we fought 5 watchers construct, with 3 of them being champion. We could still one-shot them, but 60% of the mobs being champions, we were quite happy they were only watcher's construct

[Vanhooger]

There is a "checkbox", normal/hard/elite >.>

Ok, I'll let you explain that to all those whiners so, good luck.

[kumagnificent]

Brand new players may do elites, but its because of player expectations, not dev expectations. Or peer pressure, to use another term.

Bravery bonus is a near-must-have, as some believe (I don't). It's a nice bonus, but ALL bonuses are not must-haves. Just saying.

There are game settings for those who can not handle champion mobs: casual and normal difficulty.

Would it be awesome to have ALL mobs be champions? Let's call that difficulty simply EPIC. All caps. It reminded me of the old times when epic quests were actually epic, and rewarded skill and game knowledge, as well as teamwork.

The way quests are with champions now - folks would actually want dedicated healers to come out and play.

[LongshotBro]

i've been following all the feedback closely as well as having played for many hours since the update in EH.

based on the variety of responses, it seems to me that champs are working as intended. EH there is a slight uptick in challenge, but nothing dire. Some of the champs were more difficult than others, i died a couple of times, but not insurmountable. EE sounds like it is where it should be - a very difficult situation that prompts more grouping unless you are at the top of your game (elite). Sounds like it harkens back to the days of plain ol' Epic play, where my first experience was opening the first door in The Tide Turns...and promptly getting killed by the first mob in there with his bow. i realized i wasn't prepared, but was not discouraged. That was of course many years ago, but still, i haven't tackled much EE since then and i'm fine with that. i realize a lot of others have and found it lacking in challenge so i am happy now that it packs more of a punch for them, which it should.

On the whole, what champs added overall (and is evident through the feedback) is randomness and variety, which is great! If DDO had been like this since the beginning, no one would be having these discussions right now. But i get it, something new is going to take some getting used to. Personally, i like that these dungeons i've ran so many times before have a bit of spice now, and i hope to see this trend continue. Maybe we'll get random traps someday, too.

As far as chests/loot are concerned, i'm content with the chance for random gen chests on orange champs. Sometimes random stuff is pretty good and it seems they tweak the tables and prefixes, etc. every so often which is fine. i wouldn't be against playing with champ drops though, making something like cosmetic rewards or something crafty. On the other hand, it's been exactly one day since this has been in place and i'm sure based on how it goes they'll adjust over time.

[Stonemerge]

I think the difficulty level is perfect - EE has some challenge to it

don't change anything aside from maybe adding a token xp bump when you kill one

for those that cant handle it find a group to play with and work together

There are no groups for me - The DDO rushhour is between midnight and 7 in the morning here in germany and maybe i could do 1 run but nothing more before i hit my bed. The 10 hours before (my usual playtime) it is hard or very hard to find groups (except weekend). My Guild has 200 Accounts, but not more than 2 or 3 players online (and not in my range) at my time - rush hour i can see 80 or more

I dont care for ee (Epic normal is good xp and favor isnt too important) but i don't want to see eh championized ... it is the best solo-experience for most players - ubers will not play ehards, so leave them to us non-uber-players.

but my main-concern is heroic ... i was able to solo Framework heroic elite, but i doubt that it would be possible for me with dozens of champs who can kill me with just one random hit. Most quests will be out of my reach. so i need to skip elites - but i dont want to lose my streak - "maybe i CAN find a group sooner or later and the bonus is too high to lose" - so i will just do quests under level on normal and hard - with superlow amounts of xp/min. While the guildchat-ubers will do their static group and still rush through each content.

Why is this game better now? Ubers will feel even more uber - casual players will never see the big items - LFMs will be "selective" again - we will wait 2 hours for a tank/healer/cc/whatever again - nonamericans are more or less out of the game - all build(s) are about HP and PRR (2 level evasion splash is now a 5 level Fighter/Pal-Splash) ... IMHO this is the worst design decision ever

But i dont want to take away the new funny stuff from the highend players - this Champ-Thing should be epic elite only - not in heroics plz ... we are so spread out nowadays and heroics are no endgame; give new players / casual players / build testers / slowpokers / alloptionalers a chance to get a few past lifes / completionist and dont force away their epic streak bonuses. Allow these players to catch up one day with the ubers, not separate them forever.

OptIn/OptOut Is the best solution to all this ... "I want a challenge" players opt-in and get a big bonus of whatever for doing that and are happy ... and "dont force me" players can do what they want. This game is about its customizability in classes, feats, enhancements - no other game has this complexity - forcing us to play Defenders in Heavy Armor and Tower Shield and grab Toughness 7 times will kill DDO. No One-Hit-Kills !!!
And the main reason that this game still exists is the D&D niche - a roleplaying game. Why force Storylovers and LandscapeViewers into a EachStepCanBeaDeath-Challenge ? And what about Permadeath players ? Or those guys on Wayfinder - will u close that server now or what ?

I understand that players will disagree with me. If i would live in the USofA, had a bunch of guildies online and have all possible past lives, i would get bored too - but I prefer to create new toons constantly - give them 3 lives - grab all favor, filling out all EDs and the (2nd) best items for them on their final life, then they r banksters - i play a shroud from time to time with them ... but i want a new toon then and i dont want to lose my beloved toons - so i dont TR constantly. I am experienced, but not uber - my main can solo ee - my other toons not. Plz have that in mind - what is nothing but a slightly bigger challenge for you, might be impregnable for another player - lets find a way to satisfy all of us.

OptIn for the MortalFear-Swingers in ShadowPlate with 2000 HP and 200 PRR and OptOut for the rest - thx

[caberonia]

I question the wisdom of putting these in heroics at all. Heroics are easy for over-twinked vets who know the quests like the back of their hands. Does your feedback from new players indicate that they found this game too easy?

This. You wanna Buff EE go for it.. make every mob in EE a champ idc, but thinking it was a good idea to add the same to Heroic is just silly.

[LongshotBro]

There's also the fact that compared to just a few years ago, the playerbase is miniscule, meaning less players to group with and less choices when it comes to difficulty.

For newer players who might want to try say Heroic Hard and actually have the confidence to throw up an LFM (Rarer than you might think, many of them are quite shy), only to have the LFM sit there with nobody joining.

Eventually they either run Normal, even though they want to try harder difficulties, join an Elite PuG since that's all they can find which may well be beyond their capabilities, or they move on (Further exacerbating the shrinking playerbase).

Let's give it more than one day to see what happens. i suspect we will see an increase of LFMs for different difficulties and perhaps a sigh of relief from people who had been struggling mightily to get through elite content, who will hopefully group more now, and be more open to running hard or even *gasp* normal.

btw what's so wrong about normal? i'm no spring chicken, and still sometimes i run normal when i don't think i can handle harder difficulties.

[Monkey-Boy]

This. You wanna Buff EE go for it.. make every mob in EE a champ idc, but thinking it was a good idea to add the same to Heroic is just silily.

A would rather have seen ALL mobs in EE get smaller buffs than what was implemented. I don't want to play friggin Diablo.

[kafrielveddicus]

Pretty much destroys the permadeath concept when mobs can one shot critical damage, but so be it, it will likely kill permadeath style altogether, that will be the end of my ddo gaming as it happens.

My recommendations for new and casual players;
Designed to slow down your acquisition of free DDO store points to buy adventure packs -> means they are trying to suck money out of you
Designed to create more instadeaths for Melees not preventable by gear -> means they are trying to suck more money out of you
Designed to create more inventory clutter with extra chests, buy more inventory -> means they are trying to suck money out of you
Designed to get you to burn thru more HP and SP, buy more HP and SP pots -> means they are trying to suck more money out of you
Designed to slow down favor to acquire things like drow, 32 point, monk -> means they are trying to suck more money out of you

My recommendations to the DEVS;
Save the Monster Champions for the chest thumpers that run end game EPIC ELITE -> more fun for the rest of the player base
If not allow a check box on opening quest for players to opt to have Champions -> more fun for the player base as they get to choose their playstyle

Other comments in general regarding the actual continued existence of the champions;
Full fortification for players should still be full fortification
NO mob should be hitting for more damage than an actual toon at that level can hit, no crits if fortification is present
No trash mob should be more difficult then the end boss or red named quest bosses located in quest

Overall, think these mobs are a stupid fix, would have been better to adjust all the current mobs stats in each setting.

P.S. played some Heroic elites level 12 with two other toons in guild range level 15-18 and if it wasnt for the fact that I was an ARTIFICER and kiting all the crowned mobs the other two toons would have been smoked for sure repeatedly, this will make the game lead to all non-melee toons which pretty much is all my personal builds anyways, but kills it for those that enjoy playing melee.

Hoping to continue to play this game and enjoy it.

[kumagnificent]

Ah yes everyone should run Normal through 12 or 13 TR lives in order to become good enough.. because thats what everyone else did right?

Actually - no. Maybe for a life or two. - You misunderstand me. Zerging through a quest and destroying everything that comes along is *not* the only way to play the game. You can sneak through. You can go slow, play safe. I agree that the one-shot issues should be fixed; however, the rest of the champions idea feels really well with the concept of the game.

The opt-in and opt-out for champions seems like the best way to go. The opt-in should have some nice rewards to make it a viable option. Perhaps more loot per champion kill, and additional xp per champion kill?

[totalmir]

The best feature added to the game in a while..
Yesterday I went into an EH mask of deception,and was really surprised when some assassin ripped me to shreds.There is a bit of problem when there is like 3 of them in the same place,but overall the feel is great.Once again we have mobs in quests that have to die first.

That being said,today I Played some HE gianthold on my rogue and noticed the terrible combo of a trip spamming mob/champion,and personally think that no mob that spams improved trip time and time again should be made a champion.There was also an instance of a crowned shaman that almost killed me with his stick.If the champion is a caster it shouldn't be able to melee you to death by doing more damage than a regular melee mob.Archer champions are pathetically weak compared to the other types of champions.

[Monkey-Boy]

I agree that the one-shot issues should be fixed; however, the rest of the champions idea feels really well with the concept of the game.

The one-shotting has to go, I can tolerate the rest of this "feature."

Random deathward, FOMs, True-seeing, some mobs with more HP, etc . . . is fine. And have some mobs do more damage is fine, what's not fine is the one-shotting.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

Thanks!

Was playing a fleshy CC Wizard with cocoon twisted and wearing medium armor (750ish hp) for the 4 new quests...all on EH and with three other guildies....no melee dps'r in the group. Then two more quests as a front-line dps'r (average AC (90ish), PRR(90ish), MRR(60ish), self-casting displacement, HP = 916) running an EE Foundation of Discord and EE Prison of the Planes. That said, on average I'd say we saw ~10 champions per quest, and I was hit unusually hard maybe 5 times....basically "oh $#!#" moments but not death moments (we did die a few times whether by odd beholder or trying to figure out we needed to jig instead of move around in a funky fashion :-)

I'd say this initial implementation of yours is successful. Two guildies who I was running with were not of the same opinion...at least initially...I'll be poling them again after a week or so.

Out of all the Champions through the 6 quests, 1 extra chest dropped. I dislike that it's just trash loot. Please add something more that would have me wanting to open the chest.

[AzureDragonas]

Starting to hear rummors some champions either broken or scaling too much. Tanks with 200 AC and 150+ prr get hit for 2k from melee damage not on criticals. or in heroic elite with my bard had issue while 1 champion reaver at acute delirium was hitting me for near 150 base. while i had 70 prr and 16 damage reduction...

[Ovrad]

This sounds like confirmation that the current percentage is probably working correctly. If you felt there were 40 out of 400 normal monsters (plus extra for the higher chance for orange named minibosses), that's precisely 10%, which is only slightly higher than the intended amount.

I think you missread his post, he just said it should be 40/400, but seems more like 25% chance of champion. And yeah from personally experience, it's easily 25-33% of mobs are champions. There is no way it's currently working as the intended 10%.

Champion scaling in high level quests needs some quick fixing. Going full PRR was already way superior to dodge characters, and now even the full PRR toons are getting one-shotted, you guys should at least try to balance this stuff before releasing it...

[HAL]

My static groups are first-life characters without high level raid gear as we don't grind. We run a quest once and done. We are mostly long-term players who have run the quests many times on our many alts, so we aren't newbies. Knowing the quests, we run on Elite for BB. With the exception of those quests known to be easier even on Elite, we have found Elite a challenge already.

This change does not seem to take our playstyle into account AT ALL. This change seems to be aimed at vets with multiple past lives and huge amounts of gear (including tomes). But if you keep increasing content difficulty for a small percentage of players who have created uber-characters you are squeezing out all of the players who do not play that way.

Some players say to start playing Hard difficulty if the new Elite is too challenging. Except Hard difficulty doesn't offer the same challenge as old Elite did. Adding Champions to Hard does not make it the same as pre-Champion Elite. Its just a "bursty" Hard difficulty. And of course it doesn't offer the same loot, Favor, or XP rewards.

Other MMOs have the same problem with power creep but don't squeeze players out of content. Players who have created characters that no longer are challenged by a MMO's content have "won" that MMO. That player can create a new character or create other challenges for themselves like permadeath, naked runs, etc.

I am very disappointed that Turbine has elected to go this route.

[Ayseifn]

Said it in another thread but I'll put it here too, I love this change.

Can you fix tactics though? At the moment it feels like any stunning blow or trip are no fail, just did EE stormhorns on a level 23 and I don't think I ever failed a trip/stun.