Monster Champion Feedback

[Saekee]

I love the champions although right now I am in the endgame quests of heroic levels, at level 18.

What I would REALLY LOVE TO SEE is that they are added to wilderness encounters. They would make running wildernesses far more interesting and even more profitable. Wildernesses need that touch of randomization.

[EllisDee37]

So being repeatedly hit for 1-6k of damage in the mirror room with no way to avoid it (except for bringing uber ccer with you) is WAI? I will say it again: oneshotting is no fun but I guess it will raise the sale of cakes for sure.

Varg was saying that he doesn't understand why people think the mods consider everything to be 100% WAI. They don't. They don't necessarily think things are broken, either. They're evaluating these new quests and features, with player feedback here on the forums, and (one assumes) with in-game metrics.

At least, that's how I interpret what he wrote. It was written a bit awkwardly:

"I'm not sure where that reference is coming from - that we feel everything in Terminal Delirium or Monster Champions are 100% working as intended."

[Nestroy]

So being repeatedly hit for 1-6k of damage in the mirror room with no way to avoid it (except for bringing uber ccer with you) is WAI? I will say it again: oneshotting is no fun but I guess it will raise the sale of cakes for sure.

Remember Storm the Beaches and the Ballistae when 1st implemented? They finally got fixed, but...

And this had been declared WAI first too.

[Rys]

Varg was saying that he doesn't understand why people think the mods consider everything to be 100% WAI. They don't. They don't necessarily think things are broken, either. They're evaluating these new quests and features, with player feedback here on the forums, and (one assumes) with in-game metrics.

At least, that's how I interpret what he wrote. It was written a bit awkwardly.

"I'm not sure where that reference is coming from - that we feel everything in Terminal Delirium or Monster Champions are 100% working as intended."

I understood it a bit differently.

Anyway, being laboratory rat on live isn't exactly something I like. I believe there was a group of players who actually offered them help with testing stuff on Lamania but guess that didn't work out.

[Nestroy]

I've also run these two quests on EH since U24 went live, on a level 21 fighter/cleric who has awful reflex saves. So I've been killed in there before on EH from all the lightning. (Wisps and dryads/druids in particular in druid's deep.)

I hadn't run him through it since the melee power update in U23, which means I also hadn't run it since Armor Up in U24 with the introduction of MRR. My experience in both of those quests on EH with my fighter/cleric is that adding in melee power, MRR and monster champions together made both quests noticeably easier than they were for this character pre-U23.

It's worth noting that I soloed both of them, and am comparing it to my experience soloing both of them pre-U23.

Maybe, or maybe not. I never had many problems in that quests, on whatever build, neither in EH nor in EE, since they went live, actually, except where to expect (flower build, undergeared, off destiny for EE). I did it this time too - except the sheer power level (and the end boss in Outbreak being champ) where quite unexpected from an EH quest.

[Wh070aa]

I support the implementation of mechanics that make it more necessary to group. Needing a CCer is a GOOD change. But, of course, you don't actually need a CCer.

No it is not. Being CCer sucks. Everyone I know has tried playing one, quit the game, or stopped playing caster classes. This is why old epic was changed, and ewryone was happy. I hated wizard because of this for years.

Of course you cloud also be monk, or bard, but almost no one plays them, and people who play them are extremely unpleasant to play with. (and I understand why, I tried playing monk, the game play just makes you want to insult people.) Bard players have no HP, and generally do absolutely nothing. Yes they can do many tings, but average bard gets a backpack ride in 3 dungeons out of 5.

Also this punishes people not in static party. Average wait time for PUG is about 20 minutes. I am sorry, but If I have 4 hours a day to play game and I spen them like this
10 minute wait time, run 15 minute quest x4(because healer, and ccer left after the quest to go eat), then 40 minute wait time for raid party, which people leave before its full because they don't want to wait, then play 40 minute raid, then I spend 10 more minutes selling, repairing, and banking stuff (or way more, if you want to crunch items for parts).
And this was before the LFM became empty/ old system where you needed to group. It was not all that fun. I had a static group (rouge, and a wizard + me (sorcerer) so it was not that bad.

I am sorry, but if its faster to run the quest, die , recall, run back, die again, then run back, and finish before anyone even joins, well...

Forced grouping is not the fun ting you think it is.

[Aletys]

Where were your other party members at this point?

I can't speak for gypsythief, but the times this has happened to me, the other party members were also dead too because there were multiple champions all doing the same thing, repeatedly, and everyone was dead in seconds. And t's not always a jump, sometimes it's on going thru a portal, opening a closed door, etc., and at least one time they literally spawned on top of us. As gypsythief said, you can't always look ahead.

[Erdrique]

I have done a few heroic quests on elite and haven't seen the dramatic damage numbers that some others have been seeing but I'm wondering if this is because of scaling and how that impacts monster champions. The quests I have done so far were just with my character and a hireling. I'm wondering if the champions get more dangerous with a higher party count making them more problematic?

[Qhualor]

No it is not. Being CCer sucks. Everyone I know has tried playing one, quit the game, or stopped playing caster classes. This is why old epic was changed, and ewryone was happy. I hated wizard because of this for years.

Of course you cloud also be monk, or bard, but almost no one plays them, and people who play them are extremely unpleasant to play with. (and I understand why, I tried playing monk, the game play just makes you want to insult people.) Bard players have no HP, and generally do absolutely nothing. Yes they can do many tings, but average bard gets a backpack ride in 3 dungeons out of 5.

Also this punishes people not in static party. Average wait time for PUG is about 20 minutes. I am sorry, but If I have 4 hours a day to play game and I spen them like this
10 minute wait time, run 15 minute quest x4(because healer, and ccer left after the quest to go eat), then 40 minute wait time for raid party, which people leave before its full because they don't want to wait, then play 40 minute raid, then I spend 10 more minutes selling, repairing, and banking stuff (or way more, if you want to crunch items for parts).
And this was before the LFM became empty/ old system where you needed to group. It was not all that fun. I had a static group (rouge, and a wizard + me (sorcerer) so it was not that bad.

I am sorry, but if its faster to run the quest, die , recall, run back, die again, then run back, and finish before anyone even joins, well...

Forced grouping is not the fun ting you think it is.

instead of specifically stating a role like CC, how about using the word team play? you know, that thing where people help each other out and use the strengths of their builds to achieve their goal in quests?

ok, when do you not see bards and monks? I see them all the time. multi classing is dominant, but I do still see plenty that are at least mostly pure. I have played pure monks into epics. they are actually pretty badass. most bards I see are Swashbucklers, but I do see the other ones too sometimes. I think some are either doing past lives and not playing the class to its full potential or don't know how to play one well. I see this a lot for other classes, including myself. sometimes its just about the past life and not because they actually want to play that class.

where do you get this 20 minute wait time for pugs? I still see "IP" and shortman lfms. sometimes, yes, pug groups can stand around and wait for 20 minutes to fill. it all depends who the party leader is, does he feel his character is not strong enough to shortman the quest he wants to run, is he waiting for a full group because he likes running with a full group, is it not during prime time, is it an unpopular quest, has there been multiple raid farming lfms, is it EN EDA for tokens and on and on. usually I don't wait that long. its more like 10 minutes at most for me.

if its faster to die, release and go back in over and over again instead of just waiting at least a few minutes to get more players on a difficulty you cant handle alone, than that should tell you to try a lower difficulty. unless you think its more fun and efficient to release over and over again which than nobody is going to want to join than.

[Hilltrot]

I have done a few heroic quests on elite and haven't seen the dramatic damage numbers that some others have been seeing but I'm wondering if this is because of scaling and how that impacts monster champions. The quests I have done so far were just with my character and a hireling. I'm wondering if the champions get more dangerous with a higher party count making them more problematic?

For the most part, things will just be "a little harder" . . . .

But once in a while . . . .

BAM. You're dead.

That's the problem - one spellcaster gets a crown and is still a pushover but with more hit points. The other three start firing the kill-you spells.

Tried lord of stone elite - no problem right. Now try Acute Delerium in Heroic Elite. And good luck finding a party for that one.

However, even lord of stone elite would have given me problems if the right set of monsters got the right crowns over their head.

It's relative to how lucky or unlucky you are. And it's more of an annoyance than a difficulty. I wish they would have been careful when implementing this, but they weren't.

There was this one crown guy that took me 5 minutes to bring to zero. He just had obnoxious hit points. I didn't have to heal myself or dodge anything, even with it's increase in damage. It had mindblank and deathblock. Was sitting there for five minutes pressing my left mouse button difficult or just stupid?

I really don't like this **** shoot

[CavernDragon]

Sorry to say, you have lost me as a income. Eight Champions in GH Tor all at the same time, is just a little to much. 1 or 2 Ok, but come on. When this is corrected or toned down... but for now its not fun for a 8+yr vet.

[Nandos]

I have been playing mostly heroic content since the patch. I'm enjoying the new monster champions. It really shook things up in a good way. All my groups are sticking together a lot more and working together. It just feels a lot more like Dungeons & Dragons now.

[Thar]

I have not played heroic elite since U24 went live, so I can't comment on that. (Though I'm skeptical they would present much of an issue for my heroic leveling.) I do play EH, and have been since it went live, and my experience so far is that monster champions are balanced quite well for EH. If anything, they could be tuned upwards, to be more difficult.

The reasons I dislike epic elite aren't similar to the issues with monster champions. My experience on EH is that monster champions are slightly more difficult than regular EH mobs. The last thing I would say about epic elite mobs in relation to epic hard mobs is that they're "slightly more difficult."

EH vs EE mobs are a huge increase in hp and damage to start. The EH to EE champions are not in the same class. EH champions provide some minor challenge. EE champions are making it impossible as they are harder than the quest end boss and most ee raid bosses. too many hit points added and way too much damage added. I had a top tier cleric blow through spell point bar in 3 trash mob fights healing a barb and top tier pally. in one room in lost in swamp 6 out of 7 mobs were champion trash. Turbines math for 10% is apparently different for mobs vs chest loot...

And as pointed out by someone earlier, the quests are not balanced (shrines, spacing, mob size) for an appropriate buff in difficulty at this level. Not just the new ones, but all the old ones too. bump this down to 1% (real math) and this might be more realistic a spawn rate.

If you add this to challenges it will kill them. They are barely playable now solo and impossible to 6 star solo on most not including the ones you can't 6 star because the game design is flawed. Hirelings and pets can't compete with a challenge mob. They should both have the same buffs. (the hirelings/pets)

I hope the dev's were't testing this in heavy armor pally or fighter vanguard builds. Do something that wasn't tweaked lately. Take a light armor tempest ranger into EE breaking the ranks and tell me how you do vs the champions. The game needs to be balanced for all classes. not just the flavor of the month.

[Thar]

Sorry to say, you have lost me as a income. Eight Champions in GH Tor all at the same time, is just a little to much. 1 or 2 Ok, but come on. When this is corrected or toned down... but for now its not fun for a 8+yr vet.

there needs to be a cap for amount out at a time or big reduction in %.

[lyrecono]

Because it will be a mechanic where noone will check the box and thus waste of dev time.
Keep it in ee, and we will learn to adapt to it

Also as many said
There already IS a checkbox. It's called normal/hard/elite difficulties.

though i already think the devs waste their time turning this into Diablo/Path of Exille, by your "reasoning" noboddy exept you would be running cassual.

It skews the average opinion.
Thats the issue.

I dont have emotional connections toward those posts, but toward this system which i find brilliant and only taht it requires some minor tweaks.
I dont want it being destroyed by 1 person who is trying hard to own this game.
Average opinion can not be made when there is 1 person who acts as many.
Its the same thing as presidental votings, it has happen many times that "dead people " voted.
1 person on many accounts is same as dead people, could call it zombies as a term.

This comes from someone who plays ee most of the time.
So this is what lacked in ee.
You could add more things, but this is a good start.
To kill this idea because of 1 person, cmon.
Just tweak it and adapt to it.

Its stupid in the first place that everyone expects to complete new content on ee on first try on day of its release without a death.

i can't get my arguement across so i blame alt accounts? pfffff

I feel sorry for the Permadeath guilds, if they are still around.

They still are around, though many have been on hold since U24, fun practice.....

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback!
We gave you feedback on lamania, yet the system got pushed, what are you taking from the feedback exactly?

It's possible some elements are not working exactly as intended, and of course the design can probably be improved after seeing live play.
then why use a test server if youre not using the feedback?
like:
the loot system of U14 (introducing nightmare weapons) and the unnecessary nerfing of a good working greatsword when you tried to "fix" things.
the U19, rise of the ranged builds, the bad loot system that spawned protest, media coverage and even gave us memes.
i'll skipp the many exploits we found up there.
You ask us feedback on the barb, you go back to make some changes, ask us feedback and ignore us? why? Barbs still aren't back where thay should be, not a peep from a dev....
We give feedback and it get's ignored, somethimes fixed, often far too late, everytime a portion of the playerbase pays the price. Aren't you noticing a difference?
Why ask us feedback on lamania to begin with?

My live play this weekend seems to indicate the number of champions is working roughly as intended, but I haven't personally checked every server on a variety of difficulty and levels, which could theoretically result in different experiences for different players . It may also have been a design mistake for orange named minibosses to have dramatically higher chance of being Champion Monsters, since that skews the overall count a great deal. Some players explicitly noted that the 10% mark seemed to be hit closer on quests with more monsters, which fits the model of statistical randomness in general, and probably the overall impact of orange name minibosses, as they're may be less minibosses as a percentage of overall monsters in those quests. (Minibosses need to be separated out from the statistics, in order to get proper data on non-Champion spawn rates for both minibosses and otherwise).
Are you testing different settings on different servers?

This is currently by design, but the exact list of possible Champion buffs can change in the future.

It's definitely an interesting idea, at least for some of the buffs (perhaps Deathward in particular).

As noted elsewhere, Champion buffs are generally level agnostic, or scale with the quest level, or scale with the monster's base statistics. If a level 20 Champion Buff is giving something like 20d4 damage than the level 5 version would be giving 5d4 damage. These are still up for review and changes, of course.
You are aware that were fighting cr 80+ mobs at lv 25 right?

This is the current general mode that is in use. The miniboss list is separated for Hard and Elite, as well. There are some buffs that don't appear on Hard, or only appear on minibosses or *can't* appear on minibosses. Every buff on Hard does have a chance to show up on Elite as well, for the same type of monster: miniboss or not.

It is currently working as intended that Monster Champions do not show up in Challenges, though that could be looked at in the future.

What I'll say: Damage numbers form Terminal Delirium are not representative of damage numbers in most of DDO, whether or not the enemies are Champions.
I'm not sure where that reference is coming from - that we feel everything in Terminal Delirium or Monster Champions are 100% working as intended.
I'm realy sad to see this, seems like the dev's are trully out of touch with the core game and turning it into a generic mmo

We love posts from players haven't posted before (and who we can confirm are linked to a unique account or not), though it's unfortunate if the motivation is only because they are upset. Posts from players who have never posted before are certainly something we pay attention to; if someone never felt the need to speak before now and is suddenly motivated, this is clearly one of the most important things they've felt has happened in DDO.

Have you tested in full parties? many pro champion posts (not all but many), seem to be small parties.

Could you please put in that checkbox we asked for on lamania or create a pro/anti champion servers?
I don't want to deal with large blacket buffs and i defenitly don't want to deal with another wave of people leaving. Finding good people on some timezones is hard enough as it is.

[GR4]

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming.


We love posts from players haven't posted before (and who we can confirm are linked to a unique account or not), though it's unfortunate if the motivation is only because they are upset. Posts from players who have never posted before are certainly something we pay attention to; if someone never felt the need to speak before now and is suddenly motivated, this is clearly one of the most important things they've felt has happened in DDO.

That is good to know, I have been playing on 2 premium account with all most all content purchasedbsince 2011 and I have never felt he need to post until this weekend. Many previous changes have been good or neutral with a few I didn't love, but I generally understand the reason for the change. This one is a deal breaker for my mostly solo style of play. I really hope that you tone down or remove champions from heroic levels. I can, however, see a role for them more in epic levels especially EE.

[Aletys]

I still haven't had enough time to play this week to critique details on the execution of champions. I have been reading forums a bit on champions however. General comment: why is dying so awkward for folks in MMOs? Even way back when EE was uber uber hard for me, I appreciated that it broke the expectation that a party will get bonuses for no deaths and I almost never heard anyone get any flack for dying. In fact, most EEs started with an almost-wipe reality check and usually it got better after that initial trouble in quest because folks tighten up their play, stay together, listen, coordinate. I see champions potentially doing the same thing; as long as the trouble results mainly in near-wipes rather than full out failures, I'm happy, very happy.

Ah, well, you see, that's the problem. It's not deaths that are bothering us, nor near wipes. Those are part of the game & we expect a certain amount of that. It's complete party wipes, multiple times, because the whole champion mess is completely unbalanced and very random. And there is no way of knowing whether you're going to get a survivable instance, or one where you'll get multiple champions spawning on you in a way the party can't react to in time. I've run some quests multiple times in my testing, and had the spawn rate be in the 10% range on one run, and then on another run it's 25% or greater. The high spawn rates generally yield multiple champions in a single spawn.

It's getting to the point that if we look ahead at a mob, and see too many crowns, especially on low level toons, we abort, reset & hope for a better instance. Not because we're afraid of dying, that's part of the game & we expect it. We do it because it's a waste of time to continue when all that is going to happen is a full party wipe. And that is something that we've learned from experience. From trying all sorts of ways to engage the multi-champion mobs so as to succeed in killing them without a party wipe. So far, multiple champions spawning at the same time on low level toons = full party wipe. Of course, sometimes you can't look ahead: You have to go thru a portal, open a door, jump down a shaft with no ladders, & hope there's not a multi-champion mob waiting for the party. Sometimes they're not there when you first arrive, but spawn en masse on top of everyone just as the rest of the party zones in. So much for sending in the sacrificial halfling.

And even on epic levels it can be a disaster. I was in an EH quest the other day where there were so many crowns in one area, that I couldn't count them. That was on top of an equally impressive no. of regular trash mobs in the same location. We had a red dungeon alert as soon as we arrived in the area. And no, this is not the mirror room in Terminal Delirium, this was in an older quest, where we've never had a dungeon alert there before, and we weren't even on EE. For what it's worth, except in that one area (the Bat section in Against the Demon Queen), while the champions were challenging, they were not impossible.

I am not a newbie player who doesn't know how to do things or is not geared for that level of play. I enjoy going in on a new quest & figuring out, even if it takes multiple tries & some wipes to do so. I have several epic toons, all well geared, and my main gets invited on a regular basis to run EE quests by top level players. I know how to play smart. But the way champion mobs are currently working isn't smart. It's not interesting nor is it challenging. It's just annoying and boring. For it to be challenging you have to have a chance to succeed, and right now, too much of the time that is not the case.

[FranOhmsford]

I support the implementation of mechanics that make it more necessary to group. Needing a CCer is a GOOD change. But, of course, you don't actually need a CCer.

No it is not. Being CCer sucks. Everyone I know has tried playing one, quit the game, or stopped playing caster classes. This is why old epic was changed, and ewryone was happy. I hated wizard because of this for years.

Two extreme and opposite viewpoints above.

The problem is that for most of the population building a CCer, a Tank, a Trapper, a Healbot etc. requires a lot of work AND full time Group Play!
As those builds aren't set up for solo play in the slightest!

The Vets who've already built their characters will argue that they can solo on said toons OR that you don't need to go all out - And they're RIGHT to a POINT!

Unfortunately however the sheer fact that they can still solo on those toons means they won't be joining the groups of the players who actually need them!
So groups will get the lesser players on these NEEDED toons and taking CC as the example: A Player with just 1 less DC than is needed is not even close to a player with that extra 1 DC!
Take 5 DC away and that CCer is next to useless!

So you get groups complaining about CCers being useless {just like in the days when Healers got attacked every single time someone died - whether that person had been one-shot or not!}.
And the CCers who are actually good at their role will have even less of an incentive to actually join a group!


A good CCer will make every quest in DDO a Cake-Walk for a Group {or even for a Duo where the second player has decent DPS} no matter what - This skews the perspectives of players who regularly run with a good CCer {who are few in number!}.

That good CCer however - Unless he's also got good Instakills and good DPS {unlikely for anyone outside the top 10%} will find soloing a major chore!
This is the reason Invis Zerging became so prevalent! To get past the mobs said Caster couldn't kill fast!


DDO doesn't work as a Group game because too many Base Classes and the vast majority of multiclasses don't fit into the 4 roles:
CC
Tank
Healer
Trapper
A good half of all Base Classes {and pretty much all Multiclass builds other than Trapper} ended up in the 5th and widest role - DPS!

Then you add in Dungeon Scaling - Which makes soloing significantly easier and you get Builds optimised to be decent at multiple roles - Yet further alienating the players who actually wanted to play a ROLE as they can't even find a group anymore AND when they DO find a group they get told off for only being able to do one thing! {Or even worse - Called Pikers!}.


Now:
With the majority of the players who actually wanted to play a role having left the Devs are trying to force us all back into Grouping.
Only:
With the vast differentials between Character Power and Player Skill in DDO AND with the numbers of players being only barely viable on 7 of 8 servers and completely non-viable on the 8th} now that is almost impossible to do!



To the Devs - Your % of Champions is way way too HIGH!
Your % of Orange Names becoming Champions is frankly insane!
The % of Chests spawning for Champions is low!
Reduce the Spawn Rate of Champions by 2/3rds and have EVERY Orange Named Champion spawn a Chest!

You've tried the easy route again of simply adding a system to the game wholesale rather than going through every quest {or previously every Hireling!} and fitting that system in PROPERLY!
Now you need to go back through the game and REMOVE Champions from certain quests {Tomb of the Tormented being the Prime Example!}.

Oh...And if you're going to insist on Champions being as they are now then you need to remove ALL Favour from EE and add it to EH as Many Players will simply NEVER be able to run EE!

[phillymiket]

As those builds aren't set up for solo play in the slightest!

I respctfully disagree hre for the CC build.

With this change, a CC spec'ed Wiz or Bard, even first life can now do very well.

The Champions are very tough compared to an average trash.

So one Charmed Champ Chump on your side can clear a room pretty fast.

This makes CC strategy not as much the long chore it was by a very great deal, at least from my few days of soloing just such a build since the change.

Of course, you will still have to kill that Champion eventually and the boss but alone they are not so bad.

[Holy_Purple_Wolf]

I've not read through all 37 pages so forgive me if this has been suggested.

How about adding a Champion kill count to the XP card. Gives an idea of how many are spawning in the quest and give the killers a chance to brag.