Monster Champion Feedback

[Hilltrot]

No idea, been pugging a lot of EEs since U24 and usually in each group there was at least one first lifer.

People tend not to have a choice. Have you looked on LFM and tried to do a new adventure a noob probably hasn't done before like crucible and gotten people to do it on normal?

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE DO CRUCIBLE ON NORMAL!

Same can be said for many adventures.

People don't run elite because they want to, they run elite because it is the only option available.

[slarden]

I've been taking a break lately because I wanted to wait until all the changes settled down so I wouldn't have to keep changing my characters. I tried U24, but I think I will still stick with my original plan and wait.

The best suggestions I've read on this thread involve making the champions optional - the arguments about why it needs to be forced on everyone is the usual nonsense.

Easy button fix for champions:

- Make it optional
- checking the champions box gives a bonus of 20% base xp
- chests are the extra loot reward (I got about 400 chests and 1 guild level in less than 3 hours of playing - the reward is plenty)
- ignore the people that state it must be forced on everyone or nobody will run it (for obvious reasons)
- it should only be on elite so it doesn't become another outrageous chest farm on hard

You "failed fast" and now it's time to "pivot"

[count_spicoli]

Absolutely love it. Think it is a great new change. Ran ee tharak arena in full group which is usually a snooze fest and we had to work.

Just tr'd a toon and ran canning crystal which I usually watch TV and do and one of the champs snuck by me and one shotted the crystal.

Stuff that has been too easy for too long g just got ramped up. Thumbs up turbine on this one.

[count_spicoli]

Also crowd control toons are Making easy work of this by charming the champ and letting him pummel his buddies and/or bosses. Cc is somewhat useful again.

[Blackheartox]

Simple question for you. Why not?

Because it will be a mechanic where noone will check the box and thus waste of dev time.
Keep it in ee, and we will learn to adapt to it

Also as many said
There already IS a checkbox. It's called normal/hard/elite difficulties.

[Ayseifn]

People tend not to have a choice. Have you looked on LFM and tried to do a new adventure a noob probably hasn't done before like crucible and gotten people to do it on normal?

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE DO CRUCIBLE ON NORMAL!

Same can be said for many adventures.

People don't run elite because they want to, they run elite because it is the only option available.

In epics I see a lot of LFMs for normal, they're mostly for the usual XP farms but sometimes there are groups with a few people in them doing lower xp/min stuff on norm or hard.

You don't need crucible to flag anymore so that's partly why it's run less, also the silly tiered loot system. When feeling sociable and wanting to meet new people I'll hit those sorts of LFMs, but getting an EN pair of backstabbers leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Sushiboat]

I like how most people write the same thing from multiple fresh new accounts they created.
Posts 1, join date 2014.

love that..


Changes like this were never talked about, they were pushed onto community and few that bother enough just make 20-30 accounts and push their own opinion onto devs and that proudeces bad desings and bad conclussion to wonderful mechanics.

Devs, be careful what you do with monsters.
This will drive away your vet players if you mess this up.
You should balanced it in heroic by either removing or whatever great idea you guys have.
For epic, this brings fresh air.

IF you mess this up, trust me, you will lose he last bit of respect you have from vets.
Dont listen to the new account spammers who think they own the game.
Provide feedback how you guys want to push this so that we can discuss and come to a conclussion where everyone is happy.
My simple idea is remove from heroic keep in epic.
No checkbox or whatever.
Maybe reduce spawn rate in eh and perfect.

If you disagree with a post, you need to address the logic of the post. Neither the number of posts nor the forum join date of 2014 have any bearing on the actual validity of someone's post. The validity of the post should be based on logic that supports that post.

I do find it interesting, though, that you say "don't listen to those people" and then follow it up with "listen to me, I know what I'm talking about." It's not (internally) consistent unless you demonstrate that your feedback is somehow more important than some other poster's feedback. Whether you are (or aren't) more qualified to give feedback isn't really my concern. Just wanted to let you know that you are coming off as rather arrogant to some people (at the very least, me).

That said, I do think there are some good points here:

1. Devs, please handle this with care. This is a very controversial change (in case you couldn't tell), so do your best not to alienate too many folks. I know that might not be easy given how polarized we are, but like I said, do your best.
2. Please give us some thoughts on where you are thinking about taking this. You have a lot of players that genuinely want to help you improve the system (even if we're busy fighting each other at the same time), so please share what ideas you might have with us so we can help you refine the system.

Because it will be a mechanic where noone will check the box and thus waste of dev time.
Keep it in ee, and we will learn to adapt to it

Also as many said
There already IS a checkbox. It's called normal/hard/elite difficulties.

Which begs the follow-up question:

If you like the change and you were given a checkbox, why wouldn't you check it?

[Blackheartox]

If you disagree with a post, you need to address the logic of the post. Neither the number of posts nor the forum join date of 2014 have any bearing on the actual validity of someone's post. The validity of the post should be based on logic that supports that post.

I do find it interesting, though, that you say "don't listen to those people" and then follow it up with "listen to me, I know what I'm talking about." It's not (internally) consistent unless you demonstrate that your feedback is somehow more important than some other poster's feedback. Whether you are (or aren't) more qualified to give feedback isn't really my concern. Just wanted to let you know that you are coming off as rather arrogant to some people (at the very least, me).

That said, I do think there are some good points here:

1. Devs, please handle this with care. This is a very controversial change (in case you couldn't tell), so do your best not to alienate too many folks. I know that might not be easy given how polarized we are, but like I said, do your best.
2. Please give us some thoughts on where you are thinking about taking this. You have a lot of players that genuinely want to help you improve the system (even if we're busy fighting each other at the same time), so please share what ideas you might have with us so we can help you refine the system.

Which begs the follow-up question:

If you like the change and you were given a checkbox, why wouldn't you check it?

Because someone with 2014 join date, posting i dont like this il play other games and wont spend a single $ on this game, being the same person who posted this from his main account on multiple threads cannot provide proper feedback for this change.

That person also posting same thing from diff accounts all over again does not provide any proper feedback.


Checkbox is a bad idea.
Very bad idea.
I dont want to have a choice of making ee harder, i want it harder no matter if i want it or not.
I want ee to become harder not only for me but for everyone.
I want ee to become a difficulty that you fear to step in with high chance to fail.

For heroic, just make no champs spawn and all should be happy.

Give me 1 reason why that should not be the proper way to approach this?

EE champs same, eh reduce spawn rate, heroic no champs.

1 reason why this isnt better then a stupid checkbox system

[Springstring]

As a comparison in play experiences, the old school fantasy rpgs started you out at level 1 and didn't give you extra hit points. So when you were level 1 or 2 (or lvl 3 if you were a d4 HP class), you had single digit or barely double digit HPs. Anytime you got in a fight with, say, meek archer kobolds or a lowly brigand with a longsword, it was only a matter of time before you'd get dropped due to an max dmg hit or a crit against you.

I would argue this wasn't a particularly fun feature in the evolution of fantasy games - death by inevitable bad luck, not because of poor play.

The reports I'm hearing of Champions packing 1-hit-kill punches sounds a lot like the old save-before-you-die games.

I so agree, makes the game not worth my time

[Sushiboat]

Because someone with 2014 join date, posting i dont like this il play other games and wont spend a single $ on this game, being the same person who posted this from his main account on multiple threads cannot provide proper feedback for this change.

That person also posting same thing from diff accounts all over again does not provide any proper feedback.

Not to be combative here, but that argument doesn't make any sense.

Just because someone posts the same thing over and over again, and on different accounts, does not make their feedback any less valid. It would skew the perception of public opinion, but that has nothing to do with the validity of his/her comments.

It might make you dislike that person, but then you are reaction emotionally and not rationally.

I could create ten separate forum accounts and post all over the place saying that the Earth is round. Neither the fact there are ten accounts that are all mine, nor the fact that I post multiple threads on the same thing, impact the validity of the statement "the Earth is round." Either it is, or it isn't. Nothing about my (personal) character or what I choose to do with my time affects that.

If you want to have an honest discussion, it helps to have an open mind. Approaching things rationally rather than discounting any posts you don't emotionally agree with helps people feel less like you're attacking them directly (because, at the moment, that's more or less what you're doing).

Checkbox is a bad idea.
Very bad idea.
I dont want to have a choice of making ee harder, i want it harder no matter if i want it or not.
I want ee to become harder not only for me but for everyone.
I want ee to become a difficulty that you fear to step in with high chance to fail.

For heroic, just make no champs spawn and all should be happy.

Give me 1 reason why that should not be the proper way to approach this?

For the first scenario, the reason some people don't get behind that is they don't want the game to be harder for them. It's already hard enough for them as is. They don't understand why you want to dictate how difficult the game is for them.

To be fair though, if removed from heroics, I think a lot of people would be happier. There's a lot of concerns regarding the ability to maintain BB streaks.

EE champs same, eh reduce spawn rate, heroic no champs.

1 reason why this isnt better then a stupid checkbox system

I'm not sure what part of this suddenly makes it better than a "stupid checkbox system." I don't argue that it wouldn't work, but I fail to see how that system is more flexible than a checkbox opt in/opt out system.

[Springstring]

Monster Champions only have a chance to have True Seeing and/or Deathward. Some Champions won't have either one. We certainly expect players to use instant kill abilities on many Champions.

Really then why does it not work oh wait might be a bug, oh and do even get me started if there is a shaman or cleric in the mob then everyone has death ward, which by the way stop instant kills
Oh and another thing vorp weapons have become useless, all the mobs have over 1k Hp and Championsin the 10K range , whoo hold me back I get a crit change of doing 100 damage when they hit non crit for 750 at times. Seems a bit unbalanced to me.

The exact chances to have True Seeing and Deathward are, of course, subject to change. We didn't want these to be very low, as that also reduces the tactical variety that's used -- not every champion should be instant killed or entirely invis-zerged past.



This sounds like confirmation that the current percentage is probably working correctly. If you felt there were 40 out of 400 normal monsters (plus extra for the higher chance for orange named minibosses), that's precisely 10%, which is only slightly higher than the intended amount.
some one is doing new math here, *L* I could swear 6 champions out of 10 monsters is over 10%
4champions + 10 regular monsters + insta kill for 1200+ damage = ding release

We don't expect brand new players to be playing Heroic Elite most of the time.
seems to me you are not expecting old players to stick around

Stealth is unaffected by True Seeing.
wrong, must be a bug then


Each of the buffs listed here is already in the list of the possibilities. We agree!

really then how come their displacement works against AOE spells? can't tell you how many times I used a burst or breath weapon and it shows no damage but says displacement like I was swinging a sword

[RebelMaverick]

Bloody Crypt Hard on a lvl 8 character = 51 Champions incl. all 12 Priests and both Wight rares
6 extra chests
240 total mobs killed

Champion spawn rate at about 20% of total mobs
Chest spawn rate at about 10% of champions.

[Blackheartox]

Not to be combative here, but that argument doesn't make any sense.

Just because someone posts the same thing over and over again, and on different accounts, does not make their feedback any less valid. It would skew the perception of public opinion, but that has nothing to do with the validity of his/her comments.

It might make you dislike that person, but then you are reaction emotionally and not rationally.

I could create ten separate forum accounts and post all over the place saying that the Earth is round. Neither the fact there are ten accounts that are all mine, nor the fact that I post multiple threads on the same thing, impact the validity of the statement "the Earth is round." Either it is, or it isn't. Nothing about my (personal) character or what I choose to do with my time affects that.

If you want to have an honest discussion, please try to view things rationally rather than discounting any posts you don't emotionally agree with.

It skews the average opinion.
Thats the issue.

I dont have emotional connections toward those posts, but toward this system which i find brilliant and only taht it requires some minor tweaks.
I dont want it being destroyed by 1 person who is trying hard to own this game.
Average opinion can not be made when there is 1 person who acts as many.
Its the same thing as presidental votings, it has happen many times that "dead people " voted.
1 person on many accounts is same as dead people, could call it zombies as a term.

This comes from someone who plays ee most of the time.
So this is what lacked in ee.
You could add more things, but this is a good start.
To kill this idea because of 1 person, cmon.
Just tweak it and adapt to it.

Its stupid in the first place that everyone expects to complete new content on ee on first try on day of its release without a death.

[FranOhmsford]

It skews the average opinion.
Thats the issue.

I dont have emotional connections toward those posts, but toward this system which i find brilliant and only taht it requires some minor tweaks.
I dont want it being destroyed by 1 person who is trying hard to own this game.
Average opinion can not be made when there is 1 person who acts as many.
Its the same thing as presidental votings, it has happen many times that "dead people " voted.
1 person on many accounts is same as dead people, could call it zombies as a term.

https://www.ddo.com/en/community/community-guidelines

1. One person, One Account

You are permitted one Community account for posting on the Community Sites. Players who are found posting from more than one account will be asked to choose an account for use while posting, and posting privileges will be removed from all other accounts. Additional or secondary accounts created or used for the purpose of trolling, circumventing a ban, or otherwise violating these Community Guidelines may result in the permanent ban of any and all associated Community and Game accounts, at the Turbine Community Team's discretion.

It's the #1 Rule!

If you think someone is posting on multiple accounts then report them!

[MacRighteous]

I am a casual solo player (in terms of how much time I spend on the game each week; 4 to 6 hours a week, occasionally doubling that with a weekend marathon) and I'm with the pro champion group on this one. I've only played a small sample so far (Wheelon, Deep, High Road and Stormhorns saga run) and prior to this update HN, HH, HE (on my Heroic toons) and EN, EH (with my Epic toons) were /facerolls - Today running these on EH was the most fun I had in this game for awhile. It added a sense of danger, prompted me to slow down and consider the next pull (as opposed to just charging in and letting the mobs swarm me as I auto-attacked them down) Success wasn't a guaranteed and I even had to manage my shrines and spell points. In short; it provided me with a challenge - a real challenge, without that utter hopeless feeling that EE gives me when I try soloing that setting... It kind of gave me the feeling of Wandering Monsters from PNP - champions breathed new live into stale runs with that random element of not knowing whats around the next corner. This addition just gave me extra miles of enjoyment out of my investment into this game - that's a plus in my book.

I think they should take it up a notch and not just randomize mobs in the dungeon for champion status consideration - but roll in some other truly random champions into the mix from a table of monsters not necessarily bound to the type of monsters that are in the quest you are in with guaranteed chest drops. For example you turn the corner in one of the Druid Deep quests and the game rolls from a list of monsters that are not part of the quest and you run into a Champion Beholder that drops a chest upon being slayed. Also it occured to me that a quest champion flag might ease some of the tension in the player base - effectively giving us two 2 new levels of difficulty:
Casual
Normal
Hard
Hard w/Champions flagged
Elite
Elite w/Champions flagged

with each tier rewarding players as appropriate - a little higher drop rate - a little extra goodies in the reward pool like heart seeds, comms, AS, what ever.

Any way - I'm digging well done Turbine I think you found a solution to the "its too easy" crowd while still allowing the "its too hard" crowd have a path to play - kudos!

I dont know how it plays out in EE or Raids - I accept that those levels are for grouping and I don't do them solo (in Epics at least - I solo Heroic raids with my capped toons)

[Blackheartox]

https://www.ddo.com/en/community/community-guidelines



It's the #1 Rule!

If you think someone is posting on multiple accounts then report them!

I dont like generally reporting people /:
But i ask kindly for those who do this "you know who you are" to stop it.
Doesnt help anyone

[Zweisteine]

I haven't read the thread, so this could have been suggested before, and I know it's probably very hard to implement, but why not add another difficulty?

The biggest problem I have with champions is that they make getting lots of favor far, far harder for newer or more casual players like myself and most of my friends.
(Another idea, before I introduce the first one I had: have champion frequency scale with party size, perhaps at a rate of no more than one (or one and a fraction) per encounter per character.)

My idea goes like this:

• Casual: As is.
• Normal: As is.
• Hard: As it used to be, maybe with rare champions.
• Elite: As it used to be, but with some champions (as many as are in hard now, if there's a difference in champion frequency between difficulties).
• Elite+/Hardcore/Whatever: As elite is now, or as elite is now, but with a harder baseline (which would be the hardest part to design, I would guess).

Oh, and if we want something even harder, for the true masters...
Dragon difficulty, for lack of a better name: Like elite is now, but with only champions. Every monster is a champ. And chests are a level higher or something

[Trillea]

Crown monsters are probably fun when you play with past lives and all the bonuses you can have when you played since many years, when you use the cash-shop, when you have severals hours a day to play, when you know by hart all the instances, when you play with mates you know since a long time and have the same connection timetable, when you play with ship buff etc.

I understand, you like, you love, crown mob. the game was too easy for you with all your power.

But when you do not have all that, you cannot play with crown mobs.
The elite mode was just perfect for who search challenge that can be reached without all your power.

I am an very old player, I began with the beta and since I used to play elite mode at my toon level with just one mate, without past life, in an unknown instance, without ship buff, rez cake etc. for the challenge.
I am used to paying attention to the items, the enhancements, the PPr, RD, resist and so on. I am used to play with crowd controls.
So do not tell me to go playing "my level" in normal mode or change my toon for the elite! I do not have your bonuses, so do not think I am a weak or I do not know how to play because you do not unterstand my playing way.

At this time I am paying the same bill than you, so my voice weights just as much as yours.

Normal mode is too easy, there is no challenge. And adding crown mob in normal mode do not offer the challenge an elite mode without crown mob can afford. In DDO there is not only bashing mobs, there is also competences to use, spells to counter, traps to find and disable, escort to bring in safe place, technical bosses etc. An endless-hp mob, or an insta-kill mob is NOT a challenge.

Also if the game can be only played in normal mode for new players, they would not progress in favor and they will need several toons to reach the favor goal, they would progress slower in xp and they will need more time to reach the past-life etc. There is so much differences between new toons and past-lifes toons, new players and long established players. Letting the newbies only going in normal instances just would make harder the way to advance in the game.

What is the solution? going to the cash shop to buy xp, veteran, past lifes? is DDO become a pay-to-win game?

Ok, YOU, you like, you love, the crown mob. I understand.
But I HATE them. You do not understand? Never mind, I can mannage without your respect.

Turbine, please just add a box to thick yes/no for crown mobs at the instance begining.

I have played since the update with both chars at lvl cap with completionist and brand new toons rolled up to take advantage of the new barb abilities. Champions in either case are neither impossible to overcome nor are they overly present. I would like it if they were spread out more within quests and not clumped up, but that is the nature of random. Champions slow down the zerg it's true, but have NOT been impossible to overcome at all.

The option to not have champions is there - it's called normal difficulty. Both brand new chars and completionists alike can overcome champions and if you want I can roll up a brand new char on a server I have never been on and prove it.

[Blackheartox]

I haven't read the thread, so this could have been suggested before, and I know it's probably very hard to implement, but why not add another difficulty?

The biggest problem I have with champions is that they make getting lots of favor far, far harder for newer or more casual players like myself and most of my friends.
(Another idea, before I introduce the first one I had: have champion frequency scale with party size, perhaps at a rate of no more than one (or one and a fraction) per encounter per character.)

My idea goes like this:

• Casual: As is.
• Normal: As is.
• Hard: As it used to be, maybe with rare champions.
• Elite: As it used to be, but with some champions (as many as are in hard now, if there's a difference in champion frequency between difficulties).
• Elite+/Hardcore/Whatever: As elite is now, or as elite is now, but with a harder baseline (which would be the hardest part to design, I would guess).

Oh, and if we want something even harder, for the true masters...
Dragon difficulty, for lack of a better name: Like elite is now, but with only champions. Every monster is a champ. And chests are a level higher or something

Actually a good idea, i like it

[Sushiboat]

It skews the average opinion.
Thats the issue.

I dont have emotional connections toward those posts, but toward this system which i find brilliant and only taht it requires some minor tweaks.
I dont want it being destroyed by 1 person who is trying hard to own this game.
Average opinion can not be made when there is 1 person who acts as many.
Its the same thing as presidental votings, it has happen many times that "dead people " voted.
1 person on many accounts is same as dead people, could call it zombies as a term.

This comes from someone who plays ee most of the time.
So this is what lacked in ee.
You could add more things, but this is a good start.
To kill this idea because of 1 person, cmon.
Just tweak it and adapt to it.

Its stupid in the first place that everyone expects to complete new content on ee on first try on day of its release without a death.

I'm not aware that this is a vote though. I'm fairly certain the intent of this thread is to gather feedback on the system so it can be improved. People are free to come in here and say "I hate it," but that tends to be unhelpful. People who come in and say "I hate X, Y and Z about champions" helps Turbine get a better sense of what aspects need to be toned down or changed.

Really, I'm just trying to get posters to stop bashing other posters because they don't agree with them. I have a problem with you saying someone's feedback is irrelevant because they have a 2014 forum join date, or that they post the same thing in multiple threads, or that you think they are all forum alts of the same account.

I would also say you have a very high probability of exaggerating when you say only 1 person is against this idea. In your eyes, those people might be trying to "own the game." It sounds to me like you're trying to do the exact same thing.